Thought I would share this article in Police Magazine by Dean Scoville.


http://www.policemag.com/Channel/Patrol/Articles/2012/02/Shots-Fired-Skokie-Illinois-08-25-2008.aspx

podcast of 911 call

http://www.policemag.com/Podcasts/2012/02/Shots-Fired-Skokie-Ill-Neighbor-s-911-Call.aspx

photos from crime scene

http://www.policemag.com/Channel/Patrol/PhotoGallery/2012/02/Shots-Fired-Skokie-Ill-Crime-Scene.aspx

http://www.policemag.com/Channel/Patrol/Articles/2012/02/Shots-Fired-Skokie-Illinois-08-25-2008.aspx

17 hits!







Must have been bath salts

Would like to know what duty ammo they issue their officers.

To bad he was not using a g 17, could have taken care of bidness faster.

14 hits to the body before 3 headshots put him down.

That was one motivated mean mf'er of a bad guy.



We all know shot placement is critical but you would think 14 hits would take the starch out of most people.

I Found this on OIS AAR forum from poster HUSH about it.


"Came across this on another forum, some good thoughts from the Officer involved. Article in link, with photos. Good win!
––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––-
I got this as an e-mail from a friend of mine. Kieth is retired now but still a guns and bullets kind of guy and stays on top of officer safety trends. He's a multiple gunfight survivor/winner in the old school tradition, the kind of guy most places wouldn't want around after the first three or four wins. When he talks, I listen.

quote:
Not sure if you've already read this article:



http://www.policemag.com/Chann...nois-08-25-2008.aspx



I was doing a class at the academy a couple weeks ago and one of the other instructors showed it to me. I have an acquaintance at Skokie PD, so I contacted him, and he set me up to speak with Officer Tim Gramins.



Tim is a delightful guy to speak with, very bright and alert, and completely forthright about his experience. My primary interest was how he was able to see to fire out through the windshield while the bad guy was shooting in at him through the windshield. As you know, incoming bullets tend to spray tiny pulverized shards of glass, almost a dust, into the passenger compartment. Bad stuff, even if you're lucky enough to not catch an incoming round.



At any rate, Tim told me he was thoroughly sprayed with glass fragments before he was able to roll out of the car. He told me the doctors were still picking glass bits out of his face and neck for weeks after the incident. Regarding his eyes, Tim can't account for why he wasn't hit in the eyes by glass. He had Oakleys on, but isn't sure if they were on his face, over his eyes, or perched on top of his head. He recalled being able to still adequately see through the windshield, and track the suspect's movements, as he ran up on Tim's police car. It's amazing that his eyes weren't injured, and very fortunate, too.



Tim said that if you look at the outgoing .45 ACP bullet holes in his car's windshield (in the magazine article's picture of his car), you can see where his bullet holes move diagonally up, and to the left, from his seated position as he tracked and fired at the suspect's approach toward his vehicle. Tim's agency issues Gold Dot 230-grain ammo for their officers who carry a .45 ACP. Tim told me that it appeared to him that he hit the suspect at least a couple of times while firing through the windshield.



The magazine article scores Tim's hits on the bad guy, but doesn't specify where he was hit. Tim said he hit the suspect several times in the gun-hand, wrist and forearm, as you might expect. Tim also had a number of peripheral hits on the suspect. When people are on their feet and moving, it's tough to center-punch them. The suspect was also hit in the abdomen a couple of times and also once in the upper chest. Tim said that the medical people had opined that the suspect certainly wouldn't have been able to stay on his feet for very long before succumbing to his wounds. But that ain't a hell of a lot of comfort when he's still actively trying to kill you.



Tim said he was finally able to get two quick hits into the suspect's face, more or less on either side of his mouth, and that made him collapse. When he attempted to get up to re-engage, Tim anchored him with a head shot.



The over-riding lesson that Tim has taken from his experience is that you have to be primed and ready to fight instantly and ferociously without the least hesitation. The time it took for the suspect to bail out of his vehicle and rush Tim's patrol car, firing as he did so, just doesn't leave you any time to casually weigh your options. It would behoove all of us, and those we train, to reflect on what Death looks like as it rushes your position with a 9mm in hand, and how fast time can collapse on us while we wonder what to do next. Time is a critical component of the Distance, Cover and Time triad that every defensive shooter must jealously work to control. As Tim said, there's is no time to waste...you have to fight, and keep fighting until you win.



Tim told me he has parked his Glock 21 service pistol and is now carrying a Glock 17. He said that the Glock 17 shares ammo with his back-up gun, a Glock 26, and he believes that there isn't a whole lot of of difference in the effectiveness of the commonly used service handgun calibers and loads. The primary reason for his weapon switch has been that he simply can shoot his Glock 17 faster and more accurately than he could his Glock 21. Tim's agency issues Gold Dot 124-grain +P as their 9mm service ammo, and he has purchased a couple of 31-round magazines for his Glock 17.



I sent Tim a copy of the "Texas 7" drill that I obtained from a friend at the Texas DPS academy. (See attached.) The "Texas 7" drill is based on an incident where an Irving, Texas police officer (Aubrey Hawkins) was ambushed in his car by members of the "Texas 7" prison escapees who were robbing a gun store. I asked Tim about the feasibility of simply throwing his car into reverse and backing up out of the kill zone, as we often teach in training. He said it wouldn't have been feasible in his case because it all happened too fast. Additionally, he believes he probably would have backed into something, possibly injuring himself and impairing his ability to subsequently fight, if he'd attempted some high-speed back-up maneuver. He believes the correct response is to start fighting instantly, and get out of the car as quickly as possible.



It was an honor and a privilege to speak with that young man. I don't know how we manage to find guys, who will do what he did, for no more than what we're paying them."
Hush, Mar 23, 2012 #1

I found This on Glock Talk Forum by poster GRT45 about it:


"03-04-2012, 10:43
Merkavaboy, thanks very much for posting the link to that important story. I had not read it before. It was filled with so many good lessons that I took time to carefully summarize the 3-page story for my library of "teachable moments" involving firearms and self defense.

In hopes that more people will read and learn from the event, I include below my shortened summary of the story.
Shots Fired: Skokie, Illinois 08/25/2008 (http://www.policemag.com/Channel/Patrol/Articles/2012/02/Shots-Fired-Skokie-Illinois-08-25-2008.aspx)

Photo gallery for the story (http://www.policemag.com/PhotoGallery/Photos/146/Shots-Fired-Skokie-Ill-Crime-Scene.aspx)


The report is a harrowing tale of a deadly daylight gunfight on 8/25/2008 between Officer Tim Gramins, a 14-year veteran of the Skokie, IL PD, and a black, male bank robbery suspect Raymond Maddox.
After calling for backup, Officer Gramins pursued Maddox in a car chase. The chase ended in a residential neighborhood when Maddox suddenly stopped, quickly exited his car and charged toward the patrol unit firing a Smith & Wesson 5906 9mm semi-auto pistol⁽¹⁾ at Gramins who was still seated in the stopped patrol car located only 15 ft away.

Officer Gramins drew his holstered Glock 21 .45 ACP pistol and returned fire. The two exchanged fire through the rapidly disintegrating windshield of the patrol car until, nearly simultaneously, Maddox’s S&W 9mm pistol jammed (failure to eject) and Gramins expended his primary magazine that had been loaded with 12 rounds⁽²⁾ plus the one round he kept loaded in the chamber.

Maddox retreated to his car and ditched the 9mm pistol to retrieve a Bersa Blue Thunder .380 semi-auto pistol⁽³⁾, while Officer Gramins exited the patrol car, knelt down at the front of the car and reloaded with his first spare mag loaded with 12 rounds.

The two began again to exchange gunfire as Officer Gramins quickly moved down the driver's side of his patrol car and around the rear to the passenger side to a position providing cover and a view forward. Having emptied his first spare mag, Gramins loaded his second spare mag containing 12 rounds. With the patrol car between them, the two men engaged in a deadly game of cat and mouse; one would rise and fire as the other ducked.

Maddox eventually stayed below view and Officer Gramins went prone to fire under the car in Maddox’s direction.

After some brief, ineffective point shooting by Officer Gramins that struck the tire and underside of the patrol car, Gramins paused and took careful aim at the head of Maddox who was crouched on the downslope of the opposite side of the street. Gramins fired a rapid, three-shot volley striking Maddox in the head three times and he went down, ending the fight immediately.

Maddox was transported to St. Francis Hospital where he was pronounced dead. Except for a few cuts on the chin from flying debris, Officer Gramins was mentally and physically uninjured in the horrendous exchange and was released from the hospital the next day.

Later investigation revealed that Officer Gramins had only a total of 4 rounds remaining in the second spare magazine and chamber when the fight ended, thus he had fired a total of 33 rounds of 45ACP ammo (12+1, reload, 12, reload, 8). Of the 33 rounds fired, he hit Maddox a total of 17 times including the final three fatal shots to his head, a couple to his torso, and one to his abdomen. Maddox had fired a total of 22 rounds from the 9mm and .380 pistols. The shootout lasted for over sixty seconds of sustained fire.

"People don't die the way we think they do," Gramins said. "I had 17 rounds in the guy. That will teach you how critical shot placement is."

Gramins had a Glock 26 backup gun but never got to it. Investigators recovered an SKS rifle from Maddox's car trunk along with a magazine and 7.62 rounds. Fortunately, Maddox didn’t use this rifle in the exchange.

Officer Gramins partly credits SWAT training for coming out on top and his outside training, reading and study of the psychology and physiology of combat, together with his strong will to live stemming from a deep love for his son and desire to attend his son’s birthday party that night.

_____________________________

Editor's Comments:

1. Smith & Wesson 5906 9mm pistol probably had a 15-rnd mag
2. Evidently it is Skokie, IL PD policy, or the personal preference of Officer Gramins, to load 12 rounds in the G21 standard 13-rd capacity mag
3. Bersa Blue Thunder .380 pistol probably had a 9-rnd mag
Nope.

This is why I decided never to carry a 45ACP pistol for SD long before I had ever seen this article.

http://www.policemag.com/Channel/Patrol/Articles/2012/02/Shots-Fired-Skokie-Illinois-08-25-2008.aspx (http://www.policemag.com/Channel/Patrol/Articles/2012/02/Shots-Fired-Skokie-Illinois-08-25-2008.aspx)

Even if I were a LEO I would want to carry a G17 loaded with Win Ranger 127SXT+P+."

good deal, solid advice. pistol bullets suck

I Found This on the XD forum by poster DPGDirk about it:



"Just read the article about officer Gramins having a shootout with bad guy Maddox.

Gramins was shooting a Glock .45 and hit Maddox 17 times before stopping him.

1 attacker, not a group of attackers. 17 hits with a .45. Somewhere around 30 shots fired from that .45 total. Only 4 rounds left in 3rd mag when it was over.

I don't carry how much ammo I "feel" good about. If I was carrying the XDs- and I may have to get one myself- I will definitely not be "feeling" good about having less ammo than my XDM .45 holds.

I've always felt disadvantaged when carrying a smaller, lower capacity handgun. I can't come up with a good feeling about it. An XDs would be a fine back-up for me...

I think folks that say "if you can't get the job done with 6 rounds, you're dead anyway" are naive at best. Betting your life that 6 or even 12 rounds of .45 will always be enough may be the losing bet of your life.

If you have ammo left and you're still shooting, it's not over!

Folks preach about shot placement all the time. I get it. I agree. Problem is, when someone is moving and also shooting at you, proper shot placement just got WAAAY harder. Gramins had SWAT and other tactical training and still fired 30 round to get 17 hits.

You cannot carry too much ammo. Carry a low cap weapon if you like. Carry less ammo if you like, but don't try to convince us all that it's always sufficient. Chances are much better than many think that it's not..."

Good shooting on the part of the officer. It sounds like a triple-tap to the head got the job done. That's a small target requiring precise shot placement to hit even just 10-12 yards away. .45, 9mm, whatever. Shoot what you can shoot quickly and accurately. It sounds like he did just fine, though.

Great story and thank god the officer was able to get that p.o.s.

Damn, that's a lot of lead. Glad he's alright!

This makes me wonder about the 6 rounds of .380acp being "just fine" advice that's flying around.

I thank God that officer made it through.  Good Lord! That is a lot of 230 gr lead drilled into the scum bag and he is still shooting.  Maybe he is on drugs during the incident Meth perhaps?

I love the .45 ACP round thus my 1911s and and a Glock 21 SF.  However. the existence of these documented scenarios made me change my mind.  Now I EDC a Glock 19  w/147 gr Gold Dots and two mags.  I recently found out that I can shoot the Glock 19 as good as I could my 1911s but now have the capability of having 46 rounds on me.

I honestly pray everyday that me & my family will never encounter such horror but shit does happen in the real world.  Be safe out there guys and to our LEOs thank you for your service.

I do not think this article supports the idea .45ACP is not effective. I think this incident illustrates a motivated attacker (regardless of physiology or chemicals) cannot be underestimated.

Full power 10mm anyone?

That is just incredible.

Jesus..

I keep a 590 in the car as a backup (non-LEO)
But to sustain 17 hits of .45 gold dot. That is a feat of adrenaline. I like how later he said he now carries a 17 with 33rd magazines Hope he never has to use them.

45ACP worked he walked away so he logically changes to try 9mm for the next time around - his life, his choice.
I'd be more curious as to how much the Officer trained for a gun fight each year prior to the incident.

Read the two posts by Snipert above...

33rd mags FTMFW
glad he shot that POS and came out unscathed
i think a fucking patrol rifle quickly deployed could have ended that encounter very effectively
rifle > pistol

So, hit location and the attacker's motivation matters more than .45acp? Hmm... I did not know that. Clearly, a wonder 9 would have gotten it done far better regardless. Sarcasm off.

I put up this post in praise of Glock as an outstanding combat handgun.
I still use a Glock just a different caliber.
Excellent ballistic information on duty ammunition can be found at
http://le.atk.com/general/irl/videos.aspx
http://le.atk.com/general/irl/woundballistics.aspx
on the ATK Law Enforcement website

To say that this scenario, where a patrol officer pursued a robbery suspect and then exchanged gun fire with him for over a minute in an attempt to apprehend him, is the same as a personal defense situation is ludicrous. Your only goal in personal defense should be to extricate yourself from the situation without sustaining harm. Very seldom would this involve a long term (meaning more that a few seconds) shootout with a bad guy. The only exception to this would be a situation where you are trapped, facing multiple assailants, or where suitable cover is too far to disengage. Even then, the bad guy is likely to move on rather than face law enforcement by sticking around. I carry a Ruger LCP most of the time, as that is all that I can conceal in my climate most of the year. I don't carry a backup mag. My goal is to disengage and flee. If I need 30 rounds of .45 ACP, the likelihood of my survival is low anyway. I do train, and I carry a G 23 when I can, but I don't feel inadequately armed with my LCP.

You really have put a lot of erroneous thought into this, haven't you?

+1

I would have had on extra round in mine left since I carry it with one in the chamber.

Just shows you that even 13 rds of 45 cal arent enough rounds sometimes and that its all about shot placement

I carry with 18 in my G17 and 2 17 rd mags on my side

OK, Jeff Cooper, you dropped a bomb from 50,000 feet and left the conflict zone. Congrats.

I think that by the time you've reloaded twice, magazine capacity has lost it's preeminent position in the hierarchy of importance.



I fail to see how a 9 would have done it better by virtue of being a 9.  No information other than personal preference submitted.



The officer stated that he's switched to the G17 because he shoots it better.  Of all the blather I've seen in this thread, that single point hits home.  If the 17 gives you better personal performance, good on ya.  To state that some inherent characteristic of the Glock saved his life or that he'd have been better off shooting a 9 belies the fact that he was facing a tough, determined enemy who seemed to soak up bullets like a sponge.  The officer's training, courage, and determination saved his life.  The Glock was only the tool he used to accomplish this.



The issue was that he was confronted by, "one of those guys".  Those guys are a problem whether you're carrying a .22 or a .308.  Until they finally go down–– possibly after you've driven over them with a track–– they seem immortal.  Those guys are why so many don't think that handgun caliber matters.  I would suspect that, had the officer been able to reach his patrol rifle, he'd still have had to score multiple hits before it started to matter.  



In the meantime, without igniting the whole .45 v 9mm debate, those of us who carry should carry the (IMOHO)  biggest thing that we can both adequately carry and effectively employ.  For the 99% of potential opponents who aren't those guys.


 

Thank you for this post.  By far one of the most thought out and tactically intelligent ones I have read over the years.  

It's always easier to debate and look for gear solutions.  Tactics discussions tend to get taken personally.

Is there any further info on this outside of the photos? I'm curious how many ricochets caught him.

WOW! I've had numerous nightmares about BGs taking hit after hit and keep on coming. That was reality for this officer.

Wow you 9mm guys are funny some how you think you think placing 17 rounds of 147gr in a target that adds up to 2,499gr is going to get the job done better the 2,990gr from 13 rounds of 45acp?

Math is not my strong point but he who throws the most lead wins! He who has shot placement not matter what will win over throwing the most lead!! Also I'll add after doing 21 months in Iraq and now being a police officer I'll challenge are top shooter in a pistol fight because I have had to shoot under stress and having bullets come back at me and he has not! No amount of training can give you the balls to pull the trigger when it comes time that each man has to find out on his own!! Meet a lot of SWAT and TAC LEO who have never pulled the trigger when they have a life or death. A lot of people can say they can do it and they might pull the trigger that's fine but if they are hitting arms and legs that's no good!

Most departments left the 9mm because of a case in Chicago IL were two PD officers shoot I think it was over 34 9mm rounds at one guy and did not kill him! It's all about shot placement and what you shoot best! My wife shoots 9mm would I talk her out of it? Hell no because she gets better hits with the 9mm then the 40S&W! Yet I shoot my XD-45 better then I do my issued Glock 22.

Hopefully you never have to defend an injured love one before you flee or are injured so flight is not an option.

I'm sure that wearing a BPV would be a good idea too. You can't prepare for every eventuality. I just stated what will have to work for me, and that law enforcement shootouts are not the same as personal defense situations. Look at the FBI stats. The average gun fight involves five or fewer rounds total between the combatants at seven yards or less. I'm prepared for the average exchange, if it goes beyond that, I guess I'm just toast.

Good thread boys, let's not derail it with bickering. We can all have our opinions.

The problem with averages (average X rounds, average Y feet) is that an average is made by the product of highs and lows. Tom Givens, who I've had the pleasure of training with, has had nearly 60 students involved in defensive shootings. The averages work out pretty close to the FBI statistics. Low round count and close range. The issue there is that some students involved in shootings fired 1 round and some of them fired 11. Some of them fired at 2 feet and some of them fired at 20 yards.

Guys, I'm myself guilty of throwing a J-frame and no reload in a pocket from time to time and it makes my skin crawl after seeing the real life data from guys like Givens. ON AVERAGE I'm never going to need my gun at all. So if I do, before a round is even fired, AVERAGE doesn't apply to me any more. Just my 2 cents.

As for caliber, carry what you feel is best for you, that you SHOOT WELL and cary plenty of good ammo. Several of the students in Tom's class were local Memphians (is that a word?) and spent a lot of time around Tom so they adopted a lot of his principles. Tom was carrying a .40 Glock 35, so many students were in the class with full size .40 Glocks. I found that I shot faster and more accurately than some of the shooters and one of them even made a crack behind me (I had on electric ear pro) about shooting a 9mm to get those results. Let's see. Under time and for score I'm shooting faster and more accurately. Is that less effective than your rounds all over the paper?

Good post.  I don't have the depth of experience that you have but I have come to pretty much the same conclusions.  It is good to hear someone validate what I was thinking that is based on actual experience.  

In the case of the Chicago shooting too, that also was before the fairly recent advances in bullet technology.  I think with the good bullets  9mm, 40 and 45 ACP all achieve the same level of penetration.    

When you consider the 9mm, in addtion to having the same amount of penetration as the 40 or 45, you also get more ammo, faster followup shots, cheaper and more practice, and at least for some people, better shot placement.  Now it really is just a matter of preference.   It is good to have choices

Who said that?



I carry one as a backup, and the wife sometimes carries it as primary.





It's better than nothing, but not much.





 

bingo



.9 vs .45 is mostly irrelevant, except for capacity of course



 

So you prepare for the extraordinarily unlikely scenario of being in a gunfight, but are content to just prepare for a single exchange.









 

Jeff Cooper said that your handgun was a means to get to your rifle. Now how often is your rifle handy when you're out buying groceries? You can't prepare for every eventuality, so you do what you can. I wear scrubs all day, and it would be impossible to carry my G23 with me all day with a couple of extra mags. Those are jus the facts.

To those bitching that a 9mm service pistol would not have made a difference:  When the BG was standing 12" away from the officer at the drivers side door, do you think it would have been beneficial to have 5 more rounds left in his pistol instead of hearing the click of death?  It's not caliber that would have mattered here, it's capacity.  The simple math is that he would have had 5 rounds to shoot the BG with from point blank instead of having to allow the BG to retreat to retrieve another gun while the officer bailed from the car and reloaded.

Oh, I see. You can carry a glock, but not an extra magazine, and because you can't carry a rifle....



...Ok no I have no idea what the hell that has to do with anything.



Hey man, as long it makes sense to you, that's what matters.





 

That was my thought as well.



Especially where they were face to face.





 

Good point for this scenario. The "math" however is 4 more rounds in each mag (Glock 17: 17+1 vs. Glock 21: 13+1), 12 more rounds total in three (52 vs 40). In this scenario capacity would have been better for the exchange at contact distance. In this scenario. The 9mm camp will ingrain it to memory and generalize, the .45acp camp won't. It would be the same in the reverse.

Honestly not trying to get into the 9vs45 debate, but what does the .45 do that a 9 won't do?





ETA: what do you get for giving up the extra 4 rounds?





 

I get a heavier object that, absent cherry-picking of data, offers more reliable and deeper aggregate penetration of common soft and hard barriers, and more reliable expansion across said barriers. Same as it's always been. That said, I take the Glock 17 for duty/OWB over the Glock 21 any day. I'd CCW the Glock 30 over the Glock 19. I'd carry the Glock 26 when the Glock 30 won't work. Consideration for a "duty" gun vs. a CCW differ somewhat relative to size and weight.

Fair enough.



I think some of those points are arguable, but you articulated that well.



We'll save that debate for another time.





 

Good deal.

Another thing the heavier object does better is resist deflection. Bone and windshields come to mind since we're talking HP ammo. We'd be having the "reverse" conversation I noted above if instead 9mm HP bullets were fired through both windhshields but found to have deflected too much to be effective or simply failed to be effective on target after. Just because a scenario happened (and can be immediately referenced) does not make it more valid to consider than a scenario lacking such an immediate reference but nonetheless very plausible. But, as you say, that's a whole other discussion. In this thead's example, capacity was favored. Others, not. The debate marches on...

 










 

He also said, "The purpose of the pistol is to stop a fight that somebody else has started, almost always at very short range."



Carry the the best you can with the most you can.  It'll either be enough, or it won't.



I'm pretty tired of the 9 v .45 debate, personally.  It's been going on since the .mil adopted the 9mm thirty-odd years ago, and like Ford v Chevy won't probably ever go away.  I won't tell you guys what not to carry, don't tell me what not to carry.

What case?  What is this Chicago case you speak of.  Please Tell....