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TrolleySparks
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Posted: 5/1/2010 3:06:19 PM
OK Folks, help me understand accidental discharge. How much of a concern is it?

I have a CCW permit and I some times carry a S&W Airweight wheel gun. It is *Hammerless and *Strictly Double Action. One thing I like about the weapon is the safety aspect. Seems to me the weapon will not fire without putting a lot of force (and intension) on the trigger. Since it is hammerless, I can't figure out how it can accidently discharge. Is it safer or am I kidding myself?

I also have a Makarov and a Sig Sauer single action / double action automatic. If the weapon slipped out of my hand and fell to the ground, about 2 or 3 feet, and say it landed on the hammer - I can see how bad things could happen and the gun could discharge. Am I Right or way off base?

Also: I had a gun talk with some law enforcement old timers awhile back. They told me how they used to carry the M1911 45 cal. automatic on the job. Clip in the magazine, round in the chamber, Hammer fully cocked, weapon in the holster, holster on their hip, day in day on the job. Just normal operating procedure. Being a non gun person that sort of thing seems really dangerous. Like a gun accident waiting to happen.
osprey21
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Posted: 5/1/2010 3:17:46 PM
As to the 1911, it's known as "condition 1" and it's the safest way to carry the pistol.
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The_Floridian
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Posted: 5/1/2010 3:48:02 PM
[Last Edit: 5/1/2010 3:53:42 PM by The_Floridian]
Part of the risk determination (which I don't think anyone has done extensive and well-defined studies on) will be if you are using a holster or not.

With the right holster, and with a lack of finger-fucking the tool on a daily basis, I believe your risk will be pretty low.

And, as you're finding out, researching what others have done, and done for long amounts of time, successfully will really help you lower your risk as each weapon is built differently, and each has certain areas to guard (that not all holsters that the weapon 'fits' into may actually address).

That said, I sometimes carry a 642 with no holster at all.

And... none of us know you, nor your weapons training experiences. Systems that have worked for many guys all their lives can be screwed up by ... say ... probably one or two of the pistol-carrying guys I saw operate when I was taking firearms classes. This is why, these days, it is most often called a 'negligent discharge' - it is 99% of the time (and maybe 100%) negligence on behalf of the person who owns or is handling the firearm.

Just like a lot of us are sad that any couple on the face of the earth is allowed to make children (there really should be a test and a license... lol) (half-joking there)... anyone who has somehow thus far not earned a 'felony' charge can own a firearm, and this does include some awfully awkward ... to be polite ... and clumsy people in my experience.

So I am just not sure you're going to get a valid risk assessment as you asked for in your original post. The onus is on each individual to research systems and methods, to train doing ALL of the correct movements and safest procedures each time (and I will stress here that while I have watched people train/practice, I have watched a few people practice poorly every time - to the extent that it could have been called 'negative training' because they were missing key safety aspects in their overall drills each time - this can not, and will not, create a competent weapon handler no matter how many times they practice it wrong), and to practice them after the training.

That's how I see it.
Andr0id
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Posted: 5/1/2010 4:20:59 PM
[Last Edit: 5/1/2010 4:26:49 PM by Andr0id]
Originally Posted By TrolleySparks:
OK Folks, help me understand accidental discharge. How much of a concern is it?

Also: I had a gun talk with some law enforcement old timers awhile back. They told me how they used to carry the M1911 45 cal. automatic on the job. Clip in the magazine, round in the chamber, Hammer fully cocked, weapon in the holster, holster on their hip, day in day on the job. Just normal operating procedure.

Being a non gun person that sort of thing seems really dangerous. Like a gun accident waiting to happen.


That probably means you learned everything you know about guns from TV and the movies. Forget all that crap.

Modern guns very rarely, go off all by themselves. You can drop them, throw them out of helicopters, toss them on the ground and stomp on them. As long as you don't pull the trigger, nothing is going to happen. Even if you get the hammer to fall. Why, because they have firing pin safeties and unless the trigger is all the way back, even if the hammer falls, the firing pin is blocked from striking the round.*

Even when people say they were cleaning it and it just went off, 99.9% of the time, they are lying.

Guns go off when the trigger is pulled. Put it in a safe holster, don't touch and it will sit there until hell freezes over. Really.




Your Makarov is an exception. It was designed in the 1950's. Even so, I read that they are still very drop safe.
gringop
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Posted: 5/1/2010 4:32:37 PM
There are 4 universal gun safety rules. Google them (hint, not the 3 NRA rules).

Learn and follow these rules 24 hours a day, 365 days a year. Not just with "loaded" guns or "real" guns but with all guns, even airsoft and blue guns.
Once you understand and internalize these rules, you will know that firearms safety is controlled by the person handling the firearm, not by firearm design or safety features.

Single action, double action, external safeties, internal safeties, it does not matter. Ultimately, one person is responsible for firearms safety and that is the person handling it.

Learn about your guns and how they work and see how the safeties work. Your J-Frame has a hammer block and a rebound slide that keep the hammer from hitting the firing pin unless the trigger is back. Your SIG has a firing pin block that keeps the FP off the primer unless the trigger is pulled. I don't know what your Mak has.

Carry all handguns in a suitable holster that covers the trigger (even your 10lbs trigger J-Frame), follow the 4 rules AT ALL TIMES, and quit worrying about ADs.

Gringop
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Posted: 5/1/2010 4:33:49 PM

Originally Posted By Andr0id:
Originally Posted By TrolleySparks:
OK Folks, help me understand accidental discharge. How much of a concern is it?

Also: I had a gun talk with some law enforcement old timers awhile back. They told me how they used to carry the M1911 45 cal. automatic on the job. Clip in the magazine, round in the chamber, Hammer fully cocked, weapon in the holster, holster on their hip, day in day on the job. Just normal operating procedure.

Being a non gun person that sort of thing seems really dangerous. Like a gun accident waiting to happen.


That probably means you learned everything you know about guns from TV and the movies. Forget all that crap.

Modern guns very rarely, go off all by themselves. You can drop them, throw them out of helicopters, toss them on the ground and stomp on them. As long as you don't pull the trigger, nothing is going to happen. Even if you get the hammer to fall. Why, because they have firing pin safeties and unless the trigger is all the way back, even if the hammer falls, the firing pin is blocked from striking the round.

Even when people say they were cleaning it and it just went off, 99.9% of the time, they are lying.

Guns go off when the trigger is pulled. Put it in a safe holster, don't touch and it will sit there until hell freezes over. Really.









Just to clarify the part in red and "prove "this to the OP, Massachusetts has a specific drop test (I'm unsure of other states).

If any of the firearms submitted for testing do infact "fail"the drop test, the entire line fails, meaning the firearm (pistols) cannot be sold in the state.
Forgetfull
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Posted: 5/1/2010 5:03:41 PM
[Last Edit: 5/1/2010 5:05:41 PM by Forgetfull]

Originally Posted By Andr0id:
Originally Posted By TrolleySparks:



That probably means you learned everything you know about guns from TV and the movies. Forget all that crap.

Modern guns very rarely, go off all by themselves. You can drop them, throw them out of helicopters, toss them on the ground and stomp on them. As long as you don't pull the trigger, nothing is going to happen. Even if you get the hammer to fall. Why, because they have firing pin safeties and unless the trigger is all the way back, even if the hammer falls, the firing pin is blocked from striking the round.*

Even when people say they were cleaning it and it just went off, 99.9% of the time, they are lying.

Guns go off when the trigger is pulled. Put it in a safe holster, don't touch and it will sit there until hell freezes over. Really.




Your Makarov is an exception. It was designed in the 1950's. Even so, I read that they are still very drop safe.

Modern guns never go off by themselves. Some sort of Human/Animal/God interaction is required.

Your sig should be just fine if dropped from 2-3 feet. Most manufactures of quality guns Design their handguns to be able to survive a drop test from 5 feet. Some do not though (like Keltec P11). The safety mechanism is a "Firing Pin Block safety" Basically it's a system that constantly blocks the firing pin from moving froward unless the trigger is completly pulled. So if you drop the gun from a reasonable height you should be safe unless you drop it on a bush or something that can has protrusions that can pull the trigger.

Never try and catch a falling gun, quite a few people have tried to only to accidentally pull the trigger as they catch it.

Millions of people carry glocks daily and they carry them with one in the chamber and a full mag. There are not even safetys on these guns (and they have 5-7 pound triggers) but they are safe as long as no one pulls the trigger.

The fact is if you use a good holster that covers the trigger and you practice good gun safety you will never have an AD.

And a lot of people here call an AD a ND (negligent discharge) since the Negligence of safety rules and common sense is what makes guns fire accidentally.
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Ltlabner
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Posted: 5/1/2010 8:09:36 PM
[Last Edit: 5/1/2010 8:11:53 PM by Ltlabner]
Originally Posted By TrolleySparks:

I also have a Makarov and a Sig Sauer single action / double action automatic. If the weapon slipped out of my hand and fell to the ground, about 2 or 3 feet, and say it landed on the hammer - I can see how bad things could happen and the gun could discharge. Am I Right or way off base?


Don't know about the Mak but many modern firearms have a system that either bars the firing pin from hitting the primer or makes it so it can't physically reach the primer. Trow them down right on the hammer all day long....nothing will happen.

Glocks, which I carry daily, employ a "drop safety" that physically blocks the striker from the primer. You can run it over with a Sherman tank and it's not going off. I can also attest that dropping one doesn't cause it to go off.

Originally Posted By TrolleySparks:Also: I had a gun talk with some law enforcement old timers awhile back. They told me how they used to carry the M1911 45 cal. automatic on the job. Clip in the magazine, round in the chamber, Hammer fully cocked, weapon in the holster, holster on their hip, day in day on the job. Just normal operating procedure. Being a non gun person that sort of thing seems really dangerous. Like a gun accident waiting to happen.


Actually you have it backwards. For a true 1911 style, having the hammer down (on a loaded chamber) is very dangerous. In that case a round could be discharged if the hammer is struck with force. I think Walther PPK's are this way also but don't hold me to that. "Cocked and Locked" is completely safe and was how the gun is intended to be carried. To a "non gun person" it might seem scary. To a "gun person", especially one with a CCW, it shouldn't cause you a moments worry.

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Mayimbe
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Posted: 5/2/2010 7:15:19 AM
Your first post and you are asking about ADs, mentioning you talked to 'some law enforcement old timers a while back'. Apologies if you were only looking for insight, but something doesn't feel right (ala fishing for certain answers).
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Posted: 5/2/2010 12:06:43 PM
OP. I have had a CHL for about 14 years. I carry every day.

The 1911 example is fine. Cocked and locked is the way to go for a 1911. It's safe. Modern firearms are safe and reliable including yours. Keep your finger off the trigger. Get a good holster and you are good to go. IWB/OWB is the way to go IMO or you can pocket carry with the right gun and holster. Most of the other carry methods have limited utility and will work only for some conditions (Motorcycle riding, cold weather etc.).

You want something that will allow you to carry without thinking what will I do IF? Fanny packs and shoulder holsters don't work for me. If you go somewhere you need to be able to take off your jacket. A bag that you may take off is no good. The same is true for women. Purse carry is not good. Set your purse down turn away and some little kid finds a gun in your purse. It's bad.

It's not a clip it's a mag.
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Posted: 5/4/2010 1:40:24 PM
Originally Posted By Ltlabner:

Actually you have it backwards. For a true 1911 style, having the hammer down (on a loaded chamber) is very dangerous. In that case a round could be discharged if the hammer is struck with force.



Actually, the 1911 hammer rests against the firing pin stop. It would transfer little energy to the firing pin if dropped as it would have nowhere to move. The only issue with a 1911 is a series 70 and dropping it on the barrel. THAT would cause the firing pin to move forward under it's own momentum. What it would do after that depends on how high up it was dropped and how hard the ground is it was dropped on.


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cornholio123
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Posted: 5/4/2010 1:50:10 PM
Originally Posted By WIZZO_ARAKM14:
Originally Posted By Ltlabner:

Actually you have it backwards. For a true 1911 style, having the hammer down (on a loaded chamber) is very dangerous. In that case a round could be discharged if the hammer is struck with force.



Actually, the 1911 hammer rests against the firing pin stop. It would transfer little energy to the firing pin if dropped as it would have nowhere to move. The only issue with a 1911 is a series 70 and dropping it on the barrel. THAT would cause the firing pin to move forward under it's own momentum. What it would do after that depends on how high up it was dropped and how hard the ground is it was dropped on.


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There's also the issue of having no safe way to get the hammer down on a live round in a 1911... Cocked and locked is the way to go with a 1911.
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Posted: 5/4/2010 2:02:45 PM
[Last Edit: 5/4/2010 2:08:34 PM by SGB]

Originally Posted By TrolleySparks:
OK Folks, help me understand accidental discharge. How much of a concern is it?


An accidental discharge is one caused due to a mechanical failure. Very rare.

A Negligent discharge is one caused due to operator error. Fairly common.

Originally Posted By TrolleySparks:

I have a CCW permit and I some times carry a S&W Airweight wheel gun. It is *Hammerless and *Strictly Double Action. One thing I like about the weapon is the safety aspect. Seems to me the weapon will not fire without putting a lot of force (and intension) on the trigger. Since it is hammerless, I can't figure out how it can accidently discharge. Is it safer or am I kidding myself?


An accidental discharge would be next to impossible with this firearm design.
A negligent discharge would be due to having your booger hooker on the bang switch.

Originally Posted By TrolleySparks:

I also have a Makarov and a Sig Sauer single action / double action automatic. If the weapon slipped out of my hand and fell to the ground, about 2 or 3 feet, and say it landed on the hammer - I can see how bad things could happen and the gun could discharge. Am I Right or way off base?

As to the Makarov I'm unsure. However for the Sig it would be a on issue as the design incorporates a firingpin block that is only released when the trigger is pressed fully to the rear.

Originally Posted By TrolleySparks:

Also: I had a gun talk with some law enforcement old timers awhile back. They told me how they used to carry the M1911 45 cal. automatic on the job. Clip in the magazine, round in the chamber, Hammer fully cocked, weapon in the holster, holster on their hip, day in day on the job. Just normal operating procedure. Being a non gun person that sort of thing seems really dangerous. Like a gun accident waiting to happen.

People fear what they do not understand.



Originally Posted By Ltlabner:

Actually you have it backwards. For a true 1911 style, having the hammer down (on a loaded chamber) is very dangerous. In that case a round could be discharged if the hammer is struck with force.

Actually while possible the risk of this scenario is very very improbable. The greatest risk is the firearm discharging when your thumb slips off the hammer while lowering it, a known and recognized hazard.
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Posted: 5/6/2010 11:46:20 AM
Originally Posted By TrolleySparks:
Being a non gun person that sort of thing seems really dangerous. Like a gun accident waiting to happen.


If you make the decision to own a gun, you should consider becoming a "gun person" so you understand the risks. Guns are machines or tools. If you understand how they operate, then you won't be afraid of them.

Good luck to you!