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TurboVolute
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Posted: 10/18/2008 3:44:54 PM
This is for the situation where you have deemed it appropriate to draw on a subject before you have determined that shooting is necessary. An example for the ordinary citizen might be confronting an intruder in the home. This situation is less likely on the street for CCWers than for LEOs I presume.

Where should the finger go and why? What do the trainers say? For LEOs, what is your policy?

1) The finger should rest on the trigger the moment the sights rest on the subject. There will be no more time to move the finger if needed, it will disturb the sight picture, etc.

2) The finger should remain along side of the frame until the decision is made to shoot. Otherwise you may shoot accidentally.

3) The finger should enter the trigger guard but not contact the trigger.

4) Other.
Bohr_Adam
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Posted: 10/18/2008 3:48:09 PM
[Last Edit: 10/18/2008 3:50:28 PM by Bohr_Adam]

Originally Posted By TurboVolute:
This is for the situation where you have deemed it appropriate to draw on a subject before you have determined that shooting is necessary. An example for the ordinary citizen might be confronting an intruder in the home. This situation is less likely on the street for CCWers than for LEOs I presume.

Where should the finger go and why? What do the trainers say? For LEOs, what is your policy?

1) The finger should rest on the trigger the moment the sights rest on the subject. There will be no more time to move the finger if needed, it will disturb the sight picture, etc.

2) The finger should remain along side of the frame until the decision is made to shoot. Otherwise you may shoot accidentally.

3) The finger should enter the trigger guard but not contact the trigger.

4) Other.


If you have made the decision to draw, your finger should be on the trigger when it comes on target. If you then assess the siutation as not requiring deadly force, you should move the muzzle down from the target and the weapon closer to your body, and your finger outside of the trigger well.

Solo mi dos centavos.

Note:

If the only training you have done is shooting automatically once getting on target, it is probably best to keep the weapons pointed in a safe direction until you have determined deadly force is necessary to stop the threat. Muscle memory is a bitch.
Though I look old, yet I am strong and lusty.

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Retic
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Posted: 10/18/2008 4:06:04 PM
I think deciding to draw and whether you will shoot are the same thing. I go with #2 though, because you don't need to start shooting the ground or anything before you are on target.
Boru
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Posted: 10/18/2008 5:01:50 PM
Sights on target finger on trigger
Sights off target finger off trigger
Bite off more than you can chew, then chew it.
NVGdude
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Posted: 10/18/2008 5:11:04 PM

Originally Posted By Boru:
Sights on target finger on trigger
Sights off target finger off trigger


Very succinctly put.
Retic
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Posted: 10/18/2008 5:58:13 PM

Originally Posted By Boru:
Sights on target finger on trigger
Sights off target finger off trigger


Which is what I hope he meant by #2.
slappomatt
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Posted: 10/18/2008 6:56:35 PM
yeah. once the gun comes out it should go bang. dont take it out till your ready to shoot.
My strongest opinions are on things I know very little about. so take it all with alot of salt! :)
fastmover
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Posted: 10/18/2008 7:03:48 PM

Originally Posted By Boru:
Sights on target finger on trigger
Sights off target finger off trigger



here endth the lesson.
The full value of this life can only be got by fighting; the violent take it by storm.

I know violence isn't the answer; i got it wrong on purpose.
TurboVolute
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Posted: 10/18/2008 7:07:59 PM
[Last Edit: 10/18/2008 7:25:24 PM by TurboVolute]
Let me clarify. I do not believe the finger should ever be on the trigger if the gun is not on target. I am thinking of the limited circumstance, such as a stranger in your house, or some law enforcement situations (which don't apply to me), where you may want to present a weapon before you are certain that shooting is necessary.

Outside of the home, in most cases, my understanding is this: the gun only comes out when the decision has been made to shoot. Then of course the finger is moved to the trigger as the gun is put on target.

But let's go back to the home-invasion/stranger-in-the-house. With MO's castle doctrine I could just open fire and be safe from prosecution. That doesn't mean that that would be my automatic response, but I would likely want to use the luxury of escalating force (presenting a weapon) to have the advantage over the mysterious trespasser. Maybe I didn't even draw from concealment. Maybe I brought a rifle out of the bedroom with me.

Maybe I should have asked a different question. In such a situation, should the presented weapon be off target or on target? There are many variables, but I'm talking about the situation where you haven't determined lethal force is the best thing YET, but it could change any second.

LEOs, in the situations where you draw on a subject as a precaution, is the gun on target or off target and where is your finger? I have always assumed the gun is on target, but I was wondering about the finger.
Armin_Tanzarian
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Posted: 10/18/2008 7:35:28 PM
[Last Edit: 10/18/2008 7:36:58 PM by Armin_Tanzarian]

Originally Posted By slappomatt:
yeah. once the gun comes out it should go bang. dont take it out till your ready to shoot.


I used to believe this but not any more. Things on the street aren't always going to be on/off or red/green. You may know that an attack is imminent, but not have an opportunity to shoot yet; should you wait to draw even though you may not be actually shooting for several seconds still? Things could change quickly in that several seconds.

The OP was referring to a possible home invasion. So should you be shooting as soon as the gun clears the night stand?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not a fan of "drawing down" or "controlling suspects" with a gun, but there is a place for drawing a weapon without shooting immediately.

It's been said a million times, but train as you fight. There is a documented case of a police officer who was attacked by a man with a knife. The officer was trained to draw, shoot twice, then reholster. Guess what? The officer drew, shot twice, reholstered and then was stabbed to death.

I train to draw, aquire sights w/o finger on trigger then transition to finger on trigger as the decision has been made to fire. If the decision has already been made to fire I'd be taking aim with my finger on the trigger and depending on the distance actually aquiring the sights might be optional.
all4freedom
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Posted: 10/19/2008 3:17:29 PM

Originally Posted By Boru:
Sights on target finger on trigger
Sights off target finger off trigger


On target, on trigger, based on the threat.
"You wanna see a gun show, I'll lift up my shirt." -Ted Nugent NRA Annual Meeting 2007

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3rdpig
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Posted: 10/19/2008 10:37:56 PM
I agree with the above posters. On target, on trigger. Off target (e.g., low ready), off trigger.

On target means you've made the conscious decision that someone or something needs to be destroyed in order to protect a life, this requires your finger to be on the trigger.

If you're pointing your gun at someone or something that you don't feel a need to destroy, then you need to put the gun back in the safe until you get some training.
McCain/Palin 08! There's your motherfucking Hope and Change you communist bastard!
dedfella
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Posted: 10/20/2008 10:53:29 AM
the answer to this question is training and practice

somebody telling you what to do on the internet isn't going to help at nut cutting time

JMO
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wise_jake
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Posted: 10/20/2008 11:50:33 AM

Originally Posted By Boru:
Sights on target finger on trigger
Sights off target finger off trigger

This.

Now redirect all the $$$$ you were saving up for the latest-greatest and take a class or twenty.

Your $$$$ will be MUCH better spent, and you will later make more-informed "latest-greatest" purchases.
"When you shoot people, you take what you can get." -- L.A.

"Personal attacks and threats to shoot people in the back...." -- arfcom System Message, locking a thread about 401(k) retirement plans
TurboVolute
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Posted: 10/20/2008 6:33:44 PM
[Last Edit: 10/20/2008 6:35:06 PM by TurboVolute]

Originally Posted By dedfella:
the answer to this question is training and practice

somebody telling you what to do on the internet isn't going to help at nut cutting time

JMO


Absolutely agreed. But there's nothing wrong with asking people's thoughts on the matter. I think it's a legitimate question, and I appreciate people giving their views on it. I can read ideas I hadn't thought of before, run them through my own logic mill, discuss them with other people I know, and just maybe come out a little wiser. It's how thought and discussion work. I definitely need some real training. This is no substitue.

Thanks all for your replies.
Edit: Post 87!
TurboVolute
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Posted: 10/20/2008 8:30:16 PM
I'd like to try one last thing before I let it drop. I have been contending (maybe I'm wrong) that there may be a circumstance, such as a stranger encountered in the house, where it would be appropriate to train a gun on the stranger for a brief period (say 1 to several seconds) until it is determined that the stranger is not imminently hostile. I have avoided giving a very specific scenario within those confines.

If you think that very premise is wrong, say so. But before you do, consider this specific made-up scenario. I'm not having fantasies but I'm trying to communicate the type of situation where you might respond in that way.

You live alone. You come home in the evening and enter your house. Everything seems normal so far. As you enter your living room you are startled by the form of a person sitting in your EZ-chair. In the next second or two as you are beginning to react you observe that it's a young, fit male--still sitting--no visible weapons.

His mere presence in your house is sufficient to assume this is a hostile encounter, but the information streaming into your brain in these first moments as you are already reacting defensively is telling you that it may not be hostile. These are the "what-the-h___!?" moments. They may last a second. They may last several seconds.

Training is everything, so how are YOU trained to react?

Do you just shoot before you can even see his hands or his face because he's in your house?

Do you postpone even drawing your weapon for half a minute until your pleasant interview is interrupted by his action?

Do you draw on him but then bring your weapon off of him immediately since he didn't move like one of the posters said?

Do you keep your sights on his chest for several seconds or more while you're trying to make sense of this situation? If so, is your finger off of the trigger or on it?

How would you react based on YOUR training?

Waldo0506
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Posted: 10/20/2008 8:43:50 PM

Originally Posted By TurboVolute:

Training is everything, so how are YOU trained to react?

Do you just shoot before you can even see his hands or his face because he's in your house?

I live alone. I am the only one with a key. If he is in my apartment and he is stationary or traveling in any direction other than out the front door (the only door) then I shoot.

Do you postpone even drawing your weapon for half a minute until your pleasant interview is interrupted by his action?



Do you draw on him but then bring your weapon off of him immediately since he didn't move like one of the posters said?

Do you keep your sights on his chest for several seconds or more while you're trying to make sense of this situation? If so, is your finger off of the trigger or on it?

How would you react based on YOUR training?

I fear the Greeks, even when they bring gifts. -xdoctor
ALPHAGHOST
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Posted: 10/20/2008 11:18:34 PM

Originally Posted By Boru:
Sights on target finger on trigger
Sights off target finger off trigger


*on a slightly off note, IF you have decided to shoot and can hit your target (say point shooting), then obviously, your sights wont be on target, but by all means, shoot
"I'm not stupid; y'all just retarded."--CJ
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"Si vis pacem, para bellum"
ALPHAGHOST
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Posted: 10/20/2008 11:18:45 PM

Originally Posted By Boru:
Sights on target finger on trigger
Sights off target finger off trigger


*on a slightly off note, IF you have decided to shoot and can hit your target (say point shooting), then obviously, your sights wont be on target, but by all means, shoot
"I'm not stupid; y'all just retarded."--CJ
"Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition!"
"Si vis pacem, para bellum"
wise_jake
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Posted: 10/21/2008 12:57:16 AM
[Last Edit: 10/21/2008 12:58:28 AM by wise_jake]

Originally Posted By TurboVolute:

<snip>

My situation may be a little different than yours, but I could see a situation where it might be my brother-in-law. He'd still be in the wrong, and I in the right (there's way more background here, but I won't go into it), however......

In the scenario you described, I might draw to a low-ready, finger indexed. If it's ID'd as a threat, sights on target, finger on trigger.


ETA: That's still not the right answer, even for my unique situation, but it still might be what happens.
"When you shoot people, you take what you can get." -- L.A.

"Personal attacks and threats to shoot people in the back...." -- arfcom System Message, locking a thread about 401(k) retirement plans
Boru
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Posted: 10/21/2008 2:43:27 AM

Originally Posted By ALPHAGHOST:

Originally Posted By Boru:
Sights on target finger on trigger
Sights off target finger off trigger


*on a slightly off note, IF you have decided to shoot and can hit your target (say point shooting), then obviously, your sights wont be on target, but by all means, shoot


Certainly
Bite off more than you can chew, then chew it.
pen
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Posted: 10/21/2008 8:18:00 AM
[Last Edit: 10/21/2008 8:18:43 AM by pen]

Originally Posted By TurboVolute:
<snip>

Do you just shoot before you can even see his hands or his face because he's in your house? No

Do you postpone even drawing your weapon for half a minute until your pleasant interview is interrupted by his action? No

Do you draw on him but then bring your weapon off of him immediately since he didn't move like one of the posters said? No

Do you keep your sights on his chest for several seconds or more while you're trying to make sense of this situation? Yes If so, is your finger off of the trigger or on it?
Yes, finger on the trigger.

How would you react based on YOUR training?


Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscript catapultas habebunt.
mcnielsen
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Posted: 10/21/2008 3:45:42 PM
The more you train, the less you will think about it. You will just do what the circumstances call for. Your brain won't have time to say "should I have my finger on the trigger or not" It will simply be there or not depending on the scenario.
"If you want to pray, pray before the fight, or pray after the fight. But when you are in the fight, you fight."
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dedfella
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Posted: 10/21/2008 10:56:15 PM

Originally Posted By mcnielsen:
The more you train, the less you will think about it. You will just do what the circumstances call for. Your brain won't have time to say "should I have my finger on the trigger or not" It will simply be there or not depending on the scenario.


this was all I meant by my reply

you said it much better than I.
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Posted: 10/21/2008 11:44:47 PM
height=8
Originally Posted By mcnielsen:
The more you train, the less you will think about it. You will just do what the circumstances call for. Your brain won't have time to say "should I have my finger on the trigger or not" It will simply be there or not depending on the scenario.


You will do what you have trained yourself to do. Turbo is trying to determine how he should train.
1387Delta
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Posted: 11/9/2008 9:08:28 PM
"This is for the situation where you have deemed it appropriate to draw on a subject before you have determined that shooting is necessary."

Our department trained us Finger Off the Trigger alongside frame. The instructor told us that there is virtually no time lost in pulling the trigger when the time comes. Having your finger on the trigger while holding your firearm on somebody is an invitation for disaster. Any legit firearms trainer will tell you this. For the last 5 years of my career, I participated in hundreds of dynamic entries where I pointed a firearm at individuals. Even police make mistakes. Check out this Las Vegas video that shows an accidental discharge.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9VNB7Z40w00

Training, Training, and more Training. Know the law, know your limits, and practice. One mistake and you can never take it back.
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