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Posted: 10/18/2008 11:48:09 AM EDT
[#1]
If you have made the decision to draw, your finger should be on the trigger when it comes on target. If you then assess the siutation as not requiring deadly force, you should move the muzzle down from the target and the weapon closer to your body, and your finger outside of the trigger well. Solo mi dos centavos. Note: If the only training you have done is shooting automatically once getting on target, it is probably best to keep the weapons pointed in a safe direction until you have determined deadly force is necessary to stop the threat. Muscle memory is a bitch. |
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Posted: 10/18/2008 12:06:04 PM EDT
[#2]
I think deciding to draw and whether you will shoot are the same thing. I go with #2 though, because you don't need to start shooting the ground or anything before you are on target.
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Posted: 10/18/2008 1:01:50 PM EDT
[#3]
Sights on target finger on trigger
Sights off target finger off trigger |
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Posted: 10/18/2008 1:11:04 PM EDT
[#4]
Very succinctly put. |
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Posted: 10/18/2008 1:58:13 PM EDT
[#5]
Which is what I hope he meant by #2. |
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Posted: 10/18/2008 2:56:35 PM EDT
[#6]
yeah. once the gun comes out it should go bang. dont take it out till your ready to shoot.
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Posted: 10/18/2008 3:03:48 PM EDT
[#7]
here endth the lesson. |
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Posted: 10/18/2008 3:07:59 PM EDT
[#8]
Let me clarify. I do not believe the finger should ever be on the trigger if the gun is not on target. I am thinking of the limited circumstance, such as a stranger in your house, or some law enforcement situations (which don't apply to me), where you may want to present a weapon before you are certain that shooting is necessary.
Outside of the home, in most cases, my understanding is this: the gun only comes out when the decision has been made to shoot. Then of course the finger is moved to the trigger as the gun is put on target. But let's go back to the home-invasion/stranger-in-the-house. With MO's castle doctrine I could just open fire and be safe from prosecution. That doesn't mean that that would be my automatic response, but I would likely want to use the luxury of escalating force (presenting a weapon) to have the advantage over the mysterious trespasser. Maybe I didn't even draw from concealment. Maybe I brought a rifle out of the bedroom with me. Maybe I should have asked a different question. In such a situation, should the presented weapon be off target or on target? There are many variables, but I'm talking about the situation where you haven't determined lethal force is the best thing YET, but it could change any second. LEOs, in the situations where you draw on a subject as a precaution, is the gun on target or off target and where is your finger? I have always assumed the gun is on target, but I was wondering about the finger. |
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Posted: 10/18/2008 3:35:28 PM EDT
[#9]
I used to believe this but not any more. Things on the street aren't always going to be on/off or red/green. You may know that an attack is imminent, but not have an opportunity to shoot yet; should you wait to draw even though you may not be actually shooting for several seconds still? Things could change quickly in that several seconds. The OP was referring to a possible home invasion. So should you be shooting as soon as the gun clears the night stand? Don't get me wrong, I'm not a fan of "drawing down" or "controlling suspects" with a gun, but there is a place for drawing a weapon without shooting immediately. It's been said a million times, but train as you fight. There is a documented case of a police officer who was attacked by a man with a knife. The officer was trained to draw, shoot twice, then reholster. Guess what? The officer drew, shot twice, reholstered and then was stabbed to death. I train to draw, aquire sights w/o finger on trigger then transition to finger on trigger as the decision has been made to fire. If the decision has already been made to fire I'd be taking aim with my finger on the trigger and depending on the distance actually aquiring the sights might be optional. 
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Posted: 10/19/2008 11:17:29 AM EDT
[#10]
On target, on trigger, based on the threat. |
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Posted: 10/19/2008 6:37:56 PM EDT
[#11]
I agree with the above posters. On target, on trigger. Off target (e.g., low ready), off trigger.
On target means you've made the conscious decision that someone or something needs to be destroyed in order to protect a life, this requires your finger to be on the trigger. If you're pointing your gun at someone or something that you don't feel a need to destroy, then you need to put the gun back in the safe until you get some training. |
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Posted: 10/20/2008 6:53:29 AM EDT
[#12]
the answer to this question is training and practice
somebody telling you what to do on the internet isn't going to help at nut cutting time JMO |
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Posted: 10/20/2008 7:50:33 AM EDT
[#13]
This. Now redirect all the $$$$ you were saving up for the latest-greatest and take a class or twenty. Your $$$$ will be MUCH better spent, and you will later make more-informed "latest-greatest" purchases. |
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Posted: 10/20/2008 2:33:44 PM EDT
[#14]
Absolutely agreed. But there's nothing wrong with asking people's thoughts on the matter. I think it's a legitimate question, and I appreciate people giving their views on it. I can read ideas I hadn't thought of before, run them through my own logic mill, discuss them with other people I know, and just maybe come out a little wiser. It's how thought and discussion work. I definitely need some real training. This is no substitue. Thanks all for your replies. Edit: Post 87! |
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Posted: 10/20/2008 4:30:16 PM EDT
[#15]
I'd like to try one last thing before I let it drop. I have been contending (maybe I'm wrong) that there may be a circumstance, such as a stranger encountered in the house, where it would be appropriate to train a gun on the stranger for a brief period (say 1 to several seconds) until it is determined that the stranger is not imminently hostile. I have avoided giving a very specific scenario within those confines.
If you think that very premise is wrong, say so. But before you do, consider this specific made-up scenario. I'm not having fantasies but I'm trying to communicate the type of situation where you might respond in that way. You live alone. You come home in the evening and enter your house. Everything seems normal so far. As you enter your living room you are startled by the form of a person sitting in your EZ-chair. In the next second or two as you are beginning to react you observe that it's a young, fit male--still sitting--no visible weapons. His mere presence in your house is sufficient to assume this is a hostile encounter, but the information streaming into your brain in these first moments as you are already reacting defensively is telling you that it may not be hostile. These are the "what-the-h___!?" moments. They may last a second. They may last several seconds. Training is everything, so how are YOU trained to react? Do you just shoot before you can even see his hands or his face because he's in your house? Do you postpone even drawing your weapon for half a minute until your pleasant interview is interrupted by his action? Do you draw on him but then bring your weapon off of him immediately since he didn't move like one of the posters said? Do you keep your sights on his chest for several seconds or more while you're trying to make sense of this situation? If so, is your finger off of the trigger or on it? How would you react based on YOUR training? |
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Posted: 10/20/2008 4:43:50 PM EDT
[#16]
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Posted: 10/20/2008 7:18:34 PM EDT
[#17]
*on a slightly off note, IF you have decided to shoot and can hit your target (say point shooting), then obviously, your sights wont be on target, but by all means, shoot |
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Posted: 10/20/2008 7:18:45 PM EDT
[#18]
*on a slightly off note, IF you have decided to shoot and can hit your target (say point shooting), then obviously, your sights wont be on target, but by all means, shoot |
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Posted: 10/20/2008 8:57:16 PM EDT
[#19]
My situation may be a little different than yours, but I could see a situation where it might be my brother-in-law. He'd still be in the wrong, and I in the right (there's way more background here, but I won't go into it), however...... In the scenario you described, I might draw to a low-ready, finger indexed. If it's ID'd as a threat, sights on target, finger on trigger. ETA: That's still not the right answer, even for my unique situation, but it still might be what happens. |
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Posted: 10/20/2008 10:43:27 PM EDT
[#20]
Certainly |
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Posted: 10/21/2008 4:18:00 AM EDT
[#21]
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Posted: 10/21/2008 11:45:42 AM EDT
[#22]
The more you train, the less you will think about it. You will just do what the circumstances call for. Your brain won't have time to say "should I have my finger on the trigger or not" It will simply be there or not depending on the scenario.
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Posted: 10/21/2008 6:56:15 PM EDT
[#23]
this was all I meant by my reply you said it much better than I. |
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Posted: 10/21/2008 7:44:47 PM EDT
[#24]
You will do what you have trained yourself to do. Turbo is trying to determine how he should train. |
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Posted: 11/9/2008 5:08:28 PM EDT
[#25]
"This is for the situation where you have deemed it appropriate to draw on a subject before you have determined that shooting is necessary."
Our department trained us Finger Off the Trigger alongside frame. The instructor told us that there is virtually no time lost in pulling the trigger when the time comes. Having your finger on the trigger while holding your firearm on somebody is an invitation for disaster. Any legit firearms trainer will tell you this. For the last 5 years of my career, I participated in hundreds of dynamic entries where I pointed a firearm at individuals. Even police make mistakes. Check out this Las Vegas video that shows an accidental discharge. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9VNB7Z40w00 Training, Training, and more Training. Know the law, know your limits, and practice. One mistake and you can never take it back. |
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Posted: 11/10/2008 7:39:00 AM EDT
[#26]
Quoted:
"This is for the situation where you have deemed it appropriate to draw on a subject before you have determined that shooting is necessary." Our department trained us Finger Off the Trigger alongside frame. The instructor told us that there is virtually no time lost in pulling the trigger when the time comes. Having your finger on the trigger while holding your firearm on somebody is an invitation for disaster. Any legit firearms trainer will tell you this. For the last 5 years of my career, I participated in hundreds of dynamic entries where I pointed a firearm at individuals. Even police make mistakes. Check out this Las Vegas video that shows an accidental discharge. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9VNB7Z40w00 Training, Training, and more Training. Know the law, know your limits, and practice. One mistake and you can never take it back. All these posts and finally one man that has the correct answer. 2) The finger should remain along side of the frame until the decision is made to shoot. Otherwise you may shoot accidentally. |
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Posted: 11/10/2008 11:24:07 AM EDT
[#27]
Agreed with the above statement. You should have your finger OFF the trigger until you have positively made the decision to fire. That's how you should train, anyway!
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Posted: 11/17/2008 4:16:00 PM EDT
[#28]
Quoted:
Quoted:
"This is for the situation where you have deemed it appropriate to draw on a subject before you have determined that shooting is necessary." Our department trained us Finger Off the Trigger alongside frame. The instructor told us that there is virtually no time lost in pulling the trigger when the time comes. Having your finger on the trigger while holding your firearm on somebody is an invitation for disaster. Any legit firearms trainer will tell you this. For the last 5 years of my career, I participated in hundreds of dynamic entries where I pointed a firearm at individuals. Even police make mistakes. Check out this Las Vegas video that shows an accidental discharge. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9VNB7Z40w00 Training, Training, and more Training. Know the law, know your limits, and practice. One mistake and you can never take it back. All these posts and finally one man that has the correct answer. 2) The finger should remain along side of the frame until the decision is made to shoot. Otherwise you may shoot accidentally. This is how I've always looked at it. Basic safety at the business end. If I go into the trigger guard, I'm shooting. |
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Posted: 11/18/2008 2:43:00 PM EDT
[#29]
Quoted:
Quoted:
"This is for the situation where you have deemed it appropriate to draw on a subject before you have determined that shooting is necessary." Our department trained us Finger Off the Trigger alongside frame. The instructor told us that there is virtually no time lost in pulling the trigger when the time comes. Having your finger on the trigger while holding your firearm on somebody is an invitation for disaster. Any legit firearms trainer will tell you this. For the last 5 years of my career, I participated in hundreds of dynamic entries where I pointed a firearm at individuals. Even police make mistakes. Check out this Las Vegas video that shows an accidental discharge. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9VNB7Z40w00 Training, Training, and more Training. Know the law, know your limits, and practice. One mistake and you can never take it back. All these posts and finally one man that has the correct answer. 2) The finger should remain along side of the frame until the decision is made to shoot. Otherwise you may shoot accidentally. Thanks for the LEO/department-training response. That's what I was looking for. My reason for asking, as someone pointed out, is I'm trying to develop a well thought out doctrine to practice. My training is lacking. I've practiced shooting at the range. I've practiced drawing at home. It occurred to me when I was practicing my draw that the drill was over when the sights came on target and my finger was alongside the frame. The drill has been primarily for extraction from concealment. The drill did not include a shot. So the way I have been practicing for muscle memory, the decision to draw has been completely separate from the decision to shoot. I was trying to determine whether my draw practice drills (at home) should end differently than how I had been doing it. I'll continue that way pending some good training. |
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Posted: 11/18/2008 5:10:01 PM EDT
[#30]
Quoted:
Sights on target finger on trigger Sights off target finger off trigger THIS. On target, on trigger. |
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Posted: 11/18/2008 10:19:18 PM EDT
[#31]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Sights on target finger on trigger Sights off target finger off trigger THIS. On target, on trigger. WRONG ANSWER 
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Posted: 11/18/2008 10:41:12 PM EDT
[#32]
Sights on target, finger on trigger.
One POSSIBLE exception: If the target is beyond immediate striking range, you might wish to keep the finger off. But again, that is where your gun is at "low ready," i.e. pointing at a 45 degree angle downward; your finger is off the trigger at this time. |
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Posted: 11/19/2008 7:55:11 AM EDT
[#33]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Sights on target finger on trigger Sights off target finger off trigger THIS. On target, on trigger. WRONG ANSWER However it works for you is alright by me. Clint Smith demonstrates, I just practise. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jT96jxPBCqo Edit to fix hotlink. |
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Posted: 11/19/2008 12:50:02 PM EDT
[#34]
Quoted:
However it works for you is alright by me. Clint Smith demonstrates, I just practise. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jT96jxPBCqo Edit to fix hotlink. While I have great respect for Clint Smith I strongly disagree with his on target on trigger even if the decision to shoot has not been made statement. The trigger finger only engages the trigger AFTER the decision to shoot has been made. Good way to end up facing negligent homicide charges.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nDfNV9bJoSg |
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Posted: 11/19/2008 3:02:30 PM EDT
[#35]
Quoted:
"This is for the situation where you have deemed it appropriate to draw on a subject before you have determined that shooting is necessary." Our department trained us Finger Off the Trigger alongside frame. The instructor told us that there is virtually no time lost in pulling the trigger when the time comes. Having your finger on the trigger while holding your firearm on somebody is an invitation for disaster. Any legit firearms trainer will tell you this. For the last 5 years of my career, I participated in hundreds of dynamic entries where I pointed a firearm at individuals. Even police make mistakes. Check out this Las Vegas video that shows an accidental discharge. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9VNB7Z40w00 Training, Training, and more Training. Know the law, know your limits, and practice. One mistake and you can never take it back. I'm with him. ^ |
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Posted: 11/19/2008 3:21:40 PM EDT
[#36]
Quoted:
Quoted:
However it works for you is alright by me. Clint Smith demonstrates, I just practise. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jT96jxPBCqo Edit to fix hotlink. While I have great respect for Clint Smith I strongly disagree with his on target on trigger even if the decision to shoot has not been made statement. The trigger finger only engages the trigger AFTER the decision to shoot has been made. Good way to end up facing negligent homicide charges.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nDfNV9bJoSg I know that Larry Mudgett teaches keeping the weapon pointed elsewhere until you've identified a threat. And the safety on. I do as Clint teaches. |
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Posted: 11/20/2008 1:19:01 AM EDT
[#37]
Quoted:
Quoted:
However it works for you is alright by me. Clint Smith demonstrates, I just practise. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jT96jxPBCqo Edit to fix hotlink. While I have great respect for Clint Smith I strongly disagree with his on target on trigger even if the decision to shoot has not been made statement. The trigger finger only engages the trigger AFTER the decision to shoot has been made. Good way to end up facing negligent homicide charges.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nDfNV9bJoSg Clint Smith mentions "on target based on the threat". I think the threat is very important to consider. In case I read as a bit indiscriminate, It is unlikely I`ll be pointing a gun at anyone I don`t intend on shooting in the first place. I understand in the LE world you are having to minimally train lots of ppl from all walks of life. Some of whom have no real interest or experience with weapons. I hope the lady in the video exchanged her gun for a nice ink pen. |
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Posted: 11/20/2008 2:34:31 AM EDT
[#38]
I like Clint's method because I won't be putting the sights on someone I don't plan on shooting. At low ready, even if their pelvis is getting swept, my finger is off the trigger.
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Posted: 11/20/2008 5:23:51 AM EDT
[#39]
"On target, on trigger" comes from Gunsite. It is typically guys with that background that you see teaching it. It was one of the main issues I had with them.I've pointed guns at a lot of people and know that situations can change rapidly and training to press the trigger as soon as the sights are on the target is setting yourself up for failure.
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Posted: 11/20/2008 1:21:39 PM EDT
[#40]
Quoted:
"This is for the situation where you have deemed it appropriate to draw on a subject before you have determined that shooting is necessary." Our department trained us Finger Off the Trigger alongside frame. The instructor told us that there is virtually no time lost in pulling the trigger when the time comes. Having your finger on the trigger while holding your firearm on somebody is an invitation for disaster. Any legit firearms trainer will tell you this. For the last 5 years of my career, I participated in hundreds of dynamic entries where I pointed a firearm at individuals. Even police make mistakes. Check out this Las Vegas video that shows an accidental discharge. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9VNB7Z40w00 Training, Training, and more Training. Know the law, know your limits, and practice. One mistake and you can never take it back. This is the only correct answer. The finger never goes on the trigger until you have made the decision to shoot. |
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Posted: 11/20/2008 1:25:36 PM EDT
[#41]
Quoted:
Let me clarify. I do not believe the finger should ever be on the trigger if the gun is not on target. I am thinking of the limited circumstance, such as a stranger in your house, or some law enforcement situations (which don't apply to me), where you may want to present a weapon before you are certain that shooting is necessary. Outside of the home, in most cases, my understanding is this: the gun only comes out when the decision has been made to shoot. Then of course the finger is moved to the trigger as the gun is put on target. But let's go back to the home-invasion/stranger-in-the-house. With MO's castle doctrine I could just open fire and be safe from prosecution. That doesn't mean that that would be my automatic response, but I would likely want to use the luxury of escalating force (presenting a weapon) to have the advantage over the mysterious trespasser. Maybe I didn't even draw from concealment. Maybe I brought a rifle out of the bedroom with me. Maybe I should have asked a different question. In such a situation, should the presented weapon be off target or on target? There are many variables, but I'm talking about the situation where you haven't determined lethal force is the best thing YET, but it could change any second. LEOs, in the situations where you draw on a subject as a precaution, is the gun on target or off target and where is your finger? I have always assumed the gun is on target, but I was wondering about the finger. Just rack the slide 
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Posted: 11/20/2008 1:26:29 PM EDT
[#42]
if you draw then shoot.
Decide before you draw |
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Posted: 11/20/2008 1:29:52 PM EDT
[#43]
Quoted:
"On target, on trigger" comes from Gunsite. It is typically guys with that background that you see teaching it. It was one of the main issues I had with them.I've pointed guns at a lot of people and know that situations can change rapidly and training to press the trigger as soon as the sights are on the target is setting yourself up for failure. That's where I learned it. But I make an effort to practice drawing and NOT shooting too. But if I am on the sights, I am on the trigger. I like to keep it simple. And I've pointed a gun at a guy without being on the sights or trigger. It's also what Larry Mudgett was teaching. |
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Posted: 11/20/2008 1:30:11 PM EDT
[#44]
Quoted:
if you draw then shoot. Decide before you draw Bullshit. |
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Posted: 11/20/2008 4:16:53 PM EDT
[#45]
Quoted:
It's also what Larry Mudgett was teaching. Larry also has a heavy Gunsite influence on him. Same for Scott Reitz. |
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Posted: 11/20/2008 4:24:41 PM EDT
[#46]
If it works for D-platoon I'm not complaining. I dunno if its the best way, but it works.
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Posted: 11/20/2008 4:32:37 PM EDT
[#47]
Quoted: Interesting perspective, thanks for sharing. But that's a cop's perspective. Cops point their guns at people all the time without shooting. I propose to you that non LE folk have no need to "have their gun on someone", we don't do tactical entries, we don't take prisoners and having our gun on someone who's not a deadly threat is likely to get us a boatload of troubles. And if he is a deadly threat, then ending that threat seems to me to be a better solution than trying to control it and having your finger on the trigger as the front sight comes on target seems to me to be a reasonable step to take. And if the threat isn't deadly why is the gun out of the holster in the first place? Drawing a gun to control a non lethal situation is usually considered a no-no for us lowly peasants. And if a non LEO wants to engage in that type of action then low ready, finger off trigger, is probably the best position to take as you ponder what the hell you're going to tell the judge at your trial."This is for the situation where you have deemed it appropriate to draw on a subject before you have determined that shooting is necessary." Our department trained us Finger Off the Trigger alongside frame. The instructor told us that there is virtually no time lost in pulling the trigger when the time comes. Having your finger on the trigger while holding your firearm on somebody is an invitation for disaster. Any legit firearms trainer will tell you this. For the last 5 years of my career, I participated in hundreds of dynamic entries where I pointed a firearm at individuals. Even police make mistakes. Check out this Las Vegas video that shows an accidental discharge. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9VNB7Z40w00 Training, Training, and more Training. Know the law, know your limits, and practice. One mistake and you can never take it back. |
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Posted: 11/20/2008 4:39:19 PM EDT
[#48]
3rdpig, thats a little short sighted. Imagine, say, a crazy guy with a blunt object wandering around in front of you. He is plainly a threat, and might even be walking towards you at times, but it's not time to shoot.
What are you gonna do? |
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Posted: 11/20/2008 7:55:24 PM EDT
[#49]
Quoted:
That depends largely on how far away he is and how quickly he's closing that distance.
3rdpig, thats a little short sighted. Imagine, say, a crazy guy with a blunt object wandering around in front of you. He is plainly a threat, and might even be walking towards you at times, but it's not time to shoot. What are you gonna do? And for some of the folks here, I'd imagine, the UoF/UDF laws of their state may also enter into their calculus. |
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Posted: 11/21/2008 1:09:47 PM EDT
[#50]
Getting back to the OP's question.
Quoted:
Where should the finger go and why? What do the trainers say? For LEOs, what is your policy? 1) The finger should rest on the trigger the moment the sights rest on the subject. There will be no more time to move the finger if needed, it will disturb the sight picture, etc. 2) The finger should remain along side of the frame until the decision is made to shoot. Otherwise you may shoot accidentally. 3) The finger should enter the trigger guard but not contact the trigger. 4) Other. "Always keep your finger off the trigger until the sights are on the target." "Never let your muzzle cover anything that you are not willing to destroy." These basic firearms safety rules still apply in a gunfight. The finger does not enter the trigger guard until the decision to shoot has been made. The sights don't go on the target until the decision to shoot has been made. Therefore, sights on target=finger on trigger. Why make it any harder? Sights on target does not mean the gun pointed in the general direction of the BG. Sights on target means the gun is in firing position with hard focus on the front sight and a good sight picture of the specific part of the BG that we are trying to hit (head, thorasic triangle, exposed shoulder, etc.). Why you you want to hold someone at gunpoint with the sights on the target and not shoot them? If you don't need to shoot, the gun should be at retention position (or low ready if you have trained that way). By holding the sights on target you are occluding your vision of the BG's hands and waist area. None of this means that you have to shoot the BG once your sights are on target and your finger is in the trigger guard. If you make the decision to not shoot, the sight comes off the target, the finger goes off the trigger, the safety goes on and the gun comes back to retention/ready. Once you train yourself correctly, it becomes easier. If you train making shoot/no-shoot decisions, it becomes easier. Gringop |
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