User Panel
User Panel
User Panel
|
Posted: 5/11/2015 10:21:57 PM EDT
[#1]
Quoted:
How tight should groupings be for carry gun accuracy at 20 yards? Edit: if it makes a difference its a 1911. 45 with a 4" barrel From a rest, off hand, speed? |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/11/2015 10:26:16 PM EDT
[#2]
Off hand, speed: as fast as you can shoot it? I'm thinking as fast as you would shoot if you would need to stop a threat.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 5/11/2015 11:32:03 PM EDT
[#3]
my pocket pistols (.380) need to be able to run a 8" Bianchi plate rack at 15yds.... my off body carry (9mm) at 25yds.... G42 and G17
|
|
|
|
Posted: 5/11/2015 11:51:22 PM EDT
[#4]
Generally I can put most of 25 rounds (8+1 and two 8 round reloads) into the 8 ring on a B-27 silhouette at 20 yards. That ought a be good enough right?
|
|
|
|
Posted: 5/12/2015 1:48:03 PM EDT
[#5]
If I can hit a USPSA A zone or IDPA 0 zone at 25-30 yards I consider it accurate enough. I can't shoot much better than that anyway.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 5/12/2015 2:54:01 PM EDT
[#6]
Quoted:
How tight should groupings be for carry gun accuracy at 20 yards? Depends on the shooters proficiency with said firearm... How tight SHOULD they be baseball size groups.... How tight will they realistically be depends on you Edit: if it makes a difference its a 1911. 45 with a 4" barrel Single action trigger it should be better than polymer striker fired pistols Remember it is not all the bow and arrow it is the indian pulling the string that makes the groups happen. Most modern pistols and 1911s are more than capable of shooting better groups than most shooters can put up. OP you need to establish a base line of what you can shoot at your best and strive to better yourself beyond that. Practice practice and train harder you will find what you can do. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/12/2015 6:28:20 PM EDT
[#7]
Don't get too hung up on group size.
I'd much rather have a pistol or revolver that shoots a 2" group at 10 yards to point of aim, than a pistol or revolver that shoots 1" groups at 10 yards that are a couple inches off point of aim. I have a number of 1911a, and one in particular is a superb shooter in a bullseye match. However I would not recommend it for carry purposes as that accuracy comes from tighter tolerances and fit that is not always consistent with combat reliability under normal dirt and holster lint conditions. In a bullseye match I can always fire an alibi, while I won't have that luxury in a self defense shoot. ---- In general if a working carry grade 1911 can maintain 3" to 4" groups slow fire at 25 yards with your carry ammo, it will have all the accuracy you'll ever need for a self defense situation. You'll want to focus on drawing from concealment and shooting at 3-5 yards. Start slow, and focus on the basics of establishing a good grip, and natural sight alignment. Over time once you've developed and maintained a proper grip, you'll find the sights are properly aligned as the pistol or revolver rises into your line of sight. At that point you can pick up the pace to where you are placing the front sight on target with just a brief tenth of a second pause to confirm sight picture and confirm you need to shoot. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/13/2015 1:29:55 AM EDT
[#8]
My goal is to keep all my rounds on a 3"x5" card at 7-10 yards as fast as I can shoot.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 5/13/2015 2:59:38 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Remember it is not all the bow and arrow it is the indian pulling the string that makes the groups happen. Most modern pistols and 1911s are more than capable of shooting better groups than most shooters can put up. OP you need to establish a base line of what you can shoot at your best and strive to better yourself beyond that. Practice practice and train harder you will find what you can do. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
How tight should groupings be for carry gun accuracy at 20 yards? Depends on the shooters proficiency with said firearm... How tight SHOULD they be baseball size groups.... How tight will they realistically be depends on you Edit: if it makes a difference its a 1911. 45 with a 4" barrel Single action trigger it should be better than polymer striker fired pistols Remember it is not all the bow and arrow it is the indian pulling the string that makes the groups happen. Most modern pistols and 1911s are more than capable of shooting better groups than most shooters can put up. OP you need to establish a base line of what you can shoot at your best and strive to better yourself beyond that. Practice practice and train harder you will find what you can do. This is actually more or less what I'm getting is if I should do with more practice or not. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/14/2015 4:42:32 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This is actually more or less what I'm getting is if I should do with more practice or not. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
How tight should groupings be for carry gun accuracy at 20 yards? Depends on the shooters proficiency with said firearm... How tight SHOULD they be baseball size groups.... How tight will they realistically be depends on you Edit: if it makes a difference its a 1911. 45 with a 4" barrel Single action trigger it should be better than polymer striker fired pistols Remember it is not all the bow and arrow it is the indian pulling the string that makes the groups happen. Most modern pistols and 1911s are more than capable of shooting better groups than most shooters can put up. OP you need to establish a base line of what you can shoot at your best and strive to better yourself beyond that. Practice practice and train harder you will find what you can do. This is actually more or less what I'm getting is if I should do with more practice or not. For defensive related shooting I like to use an 8.5 x 11 sheet of paper. It's appropriately sized and easy to get. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/14/2015 9:23:00 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
For defensive related shooting I like to use an 8.5 x 11 sheet of paper. It's appropriately sized and easy to get. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
How tight should groupings be for carry gun accuracy at 20 yards? Depends on the shooters proficiency with said firearm... How tight SHOULD they be baseball size groups.... How tight will they realistically be depends on you Edit: if it makes a difference its a 1911. 45 with a 4" barrel Single action trigger it should be better than polymer striker fired pistols Remember it is not all the bow and arrow it is the indian pulling the string that makes the groups happen. Most modern pistols and 1911s are more than capable of shooting better groups than most shooters can put up. OP you need to establish a base line of what you can shoot at your best and strive to better yourself beyond that. Practice practice and train harder you will find what you can do. This is actually more or less what I'm getting is if I should do with more practice or not. For defensive related shooting I like to use an 8.5 x 11 sheet of paper. It's appropriately sized and easy to get. I use 1/3rd of a sheet of 11x17 card stock. It gives a 5.6x11 sized target that is roughly "A zone" in size, and corresponds pretty well with the area you need to be hitting in order to maximize the potential for immediate incapacitation. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/15/2015 9:34:31 AM EDT
[#12]
Buy some snap caps, and dry fire the heck out of your pistol. That will help increase first round shots without flinching. You will also be able to diagnose any issues from the draw to first round shot. 4" guns shouldn't have an issue even at 50 yards with decent grouping, and it really comes down to the amount of proper trigger time you set aside for yourself. The Indian reference was a perfect way to put it. Hope this helps. Just my $.02.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 5/15/2015 12:45:51 PM EDT
[#13]
My goal is always hit the a-zone. 1. Draw from concealment, fire 1 round @ 7 yards. Must be an a-zone hit. I average 1.9 with my goal being 1.7. 2. Draw from concealment, fire 2 rounds @ 3 yards. Must both be a-zone hits. I don't recall my average time here, but the idea is to go as fast as you can while hitting the a-zone. No sight line-up, just aim down the slide. At 3 yards, you don't need to line up the sights. The rest of my training is mostly focused on one-handed shooting, both weak and strong, reloading, and thinking drills. I do shoot enough at 25 and 50 to stay proficient, and 25 yards is great for exposing any deficiencies, such as grip or trigger control. This is just my opinion. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/15/2015 1:46:19 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
My goal is always hit the a-zone. While it is important to be accurate out to 25-50 yards, I spend roughly 50% of my training time running the following drills: 1. Draw from concealment, fire 1 round @ 7 yards. Must be an a-zone hit. I average 1.9 with my goal being 1.7. 2. Draw from concealment, fire 2 rounds @ 3 yards. Must both be a-zone hits. I don't recall my average time here, but the idea is to go as fast as you can while hitting the a-zone. No sight line-up, just aim down the slide. At 3 yards, you don't need to line up the sights. The rest of my training is mostly focused on one-handed shooting, both weak and strong, reloading, and thinking drills. I do shoot enough at 25 and 50 to stay proficient, and 25 yards is great for exposing any deficiencies, such as grip or trigger control. This is just my opinion. I'd really recommend adding some drills longer than 1-2 rounds to ensure you're keeping a good grip and controlling recoil effectively. Firing 1-2 rounds it's easy to mask a poor grip, but if you have to stay "plugged into the gun" longer you'll notice weaknesses in your grip and control. I don't do a lot of them, but I like to do a few Bill Drills on a regular basis just to focus on good grip and making myself track the sights. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/15/2015 2:29:10 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'd really recommend adding some drills longer than 1-2 rounds to ensure you're keeping a good grip and controlling recoil effectively. Firing 1-2 rounds it's easy to mask a poor grip, but if you have to stay "plugged into the gun" longer you'll notice weaknesses in your grip and control. I don't do a lot of them, but I like to do a few Bill Drills on a regular basis just to focus on good grip and making myself track the sights. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: My goal is always hit the a-zone. While it is important to be accurate out to 25-50 yards, I spend roughly 50% of my training time running the following drills: 1. Draw from concealment, fire 1 round @ 7 yards. Must be an a-zone hit. I average 1.9 with my goal being 1.7. 2. Draw from concealment, fire 2 rounds @ 3 yards. Must both be a-zone hits. I don't recall my average time here, but the idea is to go as fast as you can while hitting the a-zone. No sight line-up, just aim down the slide. At 3 yards, you don't need to line up the sights. The rest of my training is mostly focused on one-handed shooting, both weak and strong, reloading, and thinking drills. I do shoot enough at 25 and 50 to stay proficient, and 25 yards is great for exposing any deficiencies, such as grip or trigger control. This is just my opinion. I'd really recommend adding some drills longer than 1-2 rounds to ensure you're keeping a good grip and controlling recoil effectively. Firing 1-2 rounds it's easy to mask a poor grip, but if you have to stay "plugged into the gun" longer you'll notice weaknesses in your grip and control. I don't do a lot of them, but I like to do a few Bill Drills on a regular basis just to focus on good grip and making myself track the sights. I definitely agree. I base my training around the CSAT standards, which include a 5 body 1 head drill at 7 yards, 3 seconds. A realistic scenario. That and 25/50 yards keep my grip where it needs to be. A little less round economic, but doing back to back 5+1 drills, then tac reload and repeat is something I've done before. However, I don't always have enough ammo to squeeze those in. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/15/2015 6:36:45 PM EDT
[#16]
 |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/15/2015 6:40:17 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryAre those powder burns I see? Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/15/2015 7:09:38 PM EDT
[#18]
Good shooting.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 5/15/2015 7:51:15 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Are those powder burns I see? Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile Quote HistoryQuoted: Are those powder burns I see? Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile That target would be in .38 caliber  |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/15/2015 9:36:07 PM EDT
[#20]
20 yards? 30 yards?
Isn't that kind of long range for defensive carry? How much is a "imminent threat" at 30 yards? Is a judge, and a jury of your peers gonna believe that? I am NOT being a smart ass here, but shooting at that distance would maybe give you a dangerous mindset, time-wise, not so? For the record, I CAN hit man-sized targets at those ranges, but the older I get the less I try to. Now I'm all about room distance and closer. Now, if we're just fucking around and punching holes in paper, or "offensive carry," disregard. 
|
|
|
|
Posted: 5/16/2015 5:36:39 AM EDT
[#21]
My rule of thumb is a paper plate.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 5/16/2015 12:46:15 PM EDT
[#22]
There seems to be a lot of difficulty framing this issue the correct way.
The question asked in a different way is: What is the poorest mechanical accuracy that we can accept in a carry gun? Is there a maximum allowable group size at a designated distance, and if so, what's the number in inches? 98% of shooters will never realize the full mechanical accuracy of a modern carry gun in good repair. I'd be comfortable carrying a pistol that could print groups of 5" or less at 25 yards. (most modern guns do way better than this) Obviously, all else being equal, I'd rather carry a gun with the mechanical accuracy of 1.5" at 25yd. over the one that shoots 6" at 25yd. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/16/2015 2:12:33 PM EDT
[#23]
This question is meaningless, you need to read some reports of police shootouts and see how many shots are complete misses as compared to hits. It's staggering to read how many missed shots there are as compared to hits.
Shooting under pressure and stress are a lot different than shooting paper or steel. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/16/2015 3:51:18 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: This question is meaningless, you need to read some reports of police shootouts and see how many shots are complete misses as compared to hits. It's staggering to read how many missed shots there are as compared to hits. Shooting under pressure and stress are a lot different than shooting paper or steel. I'll follow your non sequitur with another. What load do you carry in your Taurus Judge? |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/16/2015 7:28:13 PM EDT
[#25]
If you're asking me, I wouldn't own one.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 5/16/2015 8:58:58 PM EDT
[#26]
If I'm shooting paper rather than steel, I like to use oversize post-it notes, usually the 4"x6" size. They're easy, cheap, simple to use, and you can use different colors on a single target stand for reaction drills.
edit to add pic: 
|
|
|
|
Posted: 5/17/2015 8:13:12 AM EDT
[#27]
On the street I don't care about how small a group I can shoot at 30yds. If it ever happens it is VERY likely it will be way closer than you want it to be, you won't be lining up your sights and fully extending your arms as that will likely make a disarm easier for the bad guy. I'd worry about being able to draw quickly and smoothly, and getting COM hits without sights at 10ft. (and you could be closer than that starting out) than benchrest accuracy. Home defense - that is what AR's are for.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 5/21/2015 1:42:47 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
20 yards? 30 yards? Isn't that kind of long range for defensive carry? How much is a "imminent threat" at 30 yards? Is a judge, and a jury of your peers gonna believe that? I am NOT being a smart ass here, but shooting at that distance would maybe give you a dangerous mindset, time-wise, not so? For the record, I CAN hit man-sized targets at those ranges, but the older I get the less I try to. Now I'm all about room distance and closer. Now, if we're just fucking around and punching holes in paper, or "offensive carry," disregard. This. You don't need pinpoint competition accuracy to stop an imminent threat. Actually, at real life SD ranges, you're probably not using your sights and a double tap four or five inches apart does more to incapacitate an attacker than two rounds through the same hole. The latter will create two trauma areas. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/21/2015 6:48:47 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: This. You don't need pinpoint competition accuracy to stop an imminent threat. Actually, at real life SD ranges, you're probably not using your sights and a double tap four or five inches apart does more to incapacitate an attacker than two rounds through the same hole. The latter will create two trauma areas. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: 20 yards? 30 yards? Isn't that kind of long range for defensive carry? How much is a "imminent threat" at 30 yards? Is a judge, and a jury of your peers gonna believe that? I am NOT being a smart ass here, but shooting at that distance would maybe give you a dangerous mindset, time-wise, not so? For the record, I CAN hit man-sized targets at those ranges, but the older I get the less I try to. Now I'm all about room distance and closer. Now, if we're just fucking around and punching holes in paper, or "offensive carry," disregard. This. You don't need pinpoint competition accuracy to stop an imminent threat. Actually, at real life SD ranges, you're probably not using your sights and a double tap four or five inches apart does more to incapacitate an attacker than two rounds through the same hole. The latter will create two trauma areas. Pistol A's mechanical accuracy is 8" at 25 yards. Pistol B's mechanical accuracy is 3" at 25 yards. Both are the same make, model, and caliber. Any differences between the two aside from their mechanical accuracy are imperceptible. Which do you use? Adrenaline and stress are going to do enough to your accuracy. The last thing you need is the gun working against you, too. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/22/2015 8:28:24 AM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Pistol A's mechanical accuracy is 8" at 25 yards. Pistol B's mechanical accuracy is 3" at 25 yards. Both are the same make, model, and caliber. Any differences between the two aside from their mechanical accuracy are imperceptible. Which do you use? Adrenaline and stress are going to do enough to your accuracy. The last thing you need is the gun working against you, too. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: 20 yards? 30 yards? Isn't that kind of long range for defensive carry? How much is a "imminent threat" at 30 yards? Is a judge, and a jury of your peers gonna believe that? I am NOT being a smart ass here, but shooting at that distance would maybe give you a dangerous mindset, time-wise, not so? For the record, I CAN hit man-sized targets at those ranges, but the older I get the less I try to. Now I'm all about room distance and closer. Now, if we're just fucking around and punching holes in paper, or "offensive carry," disregard. This. You don't need pinpoint competition accuracy to stop an imminent threat. Actually, at real life SD ranges, you're probably not using your sights and a double tap four or five inches apart does more to incapacitate an attacker than two rounds through the same hole. The latter will create two trauma areas. Pistol A's mechanical accuracy is 8" at 25 yards. Pistol B's mechanical accuracy is 3" at 25 yards. Both are the same make, model, and caliber. Any differences between the two aside from their mechanical accuracy are imperceptible. Which do you use? Adrenaline and stress are going to do enough to your accuracy. The last thing you need is the gun working against you, too. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/22/2015 8:30:40 AM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: This. You don't need pinpoint competition accuracy to stop an imminent threat. Actually, at real life SD ranges, you're probably not using your sights and a double tap four or five inches apart does more to incapacitate an attacker than two rounds through the same hole. The latter will create two trauma areas. Quote HistoryQuoted: This. You don't need pinpoint competition accuracy to stop an imminent threat. Actually, at real life SD ranges, you're probably not using your sights and a double tap four or five inches apart does more to incapacitate an attacker than two rounds through the same hole. The latter will create two trauma areas. This regurgitated nonsense again?  |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/22/2015 5:38:02 PM EDT
[#32]
"A" zone at 25 yards. Just about any quality handgun will do that.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 5/22/2015 11:33:13 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Whichever one I shoot better in SD drills Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: 20 yards? 30 yards? Isn't that kind of long range for defensive carry? How much is a "imminent threat" at 30 yards? Is a judge, and a jury of your peers gonna believe that? I am NOT being a smart ass here, but shooting at that distance would maybe give you a dangerous mindset, time-wise, not so? For the record, I CAN hit man-sized targets at those ranges, but the older I get the less I try to. Now I'm all about room distance and closer. Now, if we're just fucking around and punching holes in paper, or "offensive carry," disregard. This. You don't need pinpoint competition accuracy to stop an imminent threat. Actually, at real life SD ranges, you're probably not using your sights and a double tap four or five inches apart does more to incapacitate an attacker than two rounds through the same hole. The latter will create two trauma areas. Pistol A's mechanical accuracy is 8" at 25 yards. Pistol B's mechanical accuracy is 3" at 25 yards. Both are the same make, model, and caliber. Any differences between the two aside from their mechanical accuracy are imperceptible. Which do you use? Adrenaline and stress are going to do enough to your accuracy. The last thing you need is the gun working against you, too. |
|
|
Win a FREE Membership!
Sign up for the ARFCOM weekly newsletter and be entered to win a free ARFCOM membership. One new winner* is announced every week!
You will receive an email every Friday morning featuring the latest chatter from the hottest topics, breaking news surrounding legislation, as well as exclusive deals only available to ARFCOM email subscribers.
AR15.COM is the world's largest firearm community and is a gathering place for firearm enthusiasts of all types.
From hunters and military members, to competition shooters and general firearm enthusiasts, we welcome anyone who values and respects the way of the firearm.
Subscribe to our monthly Newsletter to receive firearm news, product discounts from your favorite Industry Partners, and more.
Copyright © 1996-2024 AR15.COM LLC. All Rights Reserved.
Any use of this content without express written consent is prohibited.
AR15.Com reserves the right to overwrite or replace any affiliate, commercial, or monetizable links, posted by users, with our own.
