I am sure most have heard of the tragedy that befell Veronica Rutledge who what shot by her 2 year old daughter at a Walmart - LINK

I know 2 year olds move fast and unexpectedly but I have a little trouble understanding how they could fire a pistol???

Anyone have any factual details of this incident or similar incidents???

Local news says S&W M&P Shield.





http://www.khq.com/story/27740925/investigators-detail-moments-before-2-year-old-accidentally-shot-killed-his-mother

 

Think about a gun in a purse.  Think about a group of keys on a key ring that have entered the trigger guard. Think of a two year old tugging on the other end of that key ring.


Not known to be factual but very plausible.

Everyone is thinking the child held the gun in the normal shooting grip but enough pressure on the trigger without regard to "grip will fire the gun. Keys or some other foreign object that entered the trigger guard could easily become the force magnifying leverage to cause the trigger to move.

Great but tragic example of why your firearm should be ON your body, women included.

Not a big fan of off body carry for obvious reasons, but there were other issues here.

Self loaders without a manual safety, like Glocks, most M&Ps etc will and can fire if something pulls the trigger.  Its why so many cops shoot themselves in the leg re-holstering, a retention strap caught in the trigger guard can set it off.

This type of handgun needs to be kept in a holster with the trigger covered.  If carried in a purse it needs to be carried in one of those pursed specifically designed for carry, with a separate handgun compartment that cannot be reached from the main compartment.  Now the article says that the purse was designed that way, but I'm calling BS on that, (or she wasn't using it right) since those compartments are generally held closed with very strong velcro, and the openings are hidden in the side.

In a proper holster I believe this would not of happen.  I leather holster with some retention would have prevented this or slowed the kid enough that the mother could have observed manipulation of the holster.  Also if you carry keep it on your person purse or whatever.  Purses disappear at supermarkets all the time and it happens faster than you might think.

Yes that can happen, and yes it's a good thing to keep your weapon in a holster which covers the trigger and is under your control at all times.
However, as stated in the newspaper article "Detectives say the purse was specifically designed for concealed carry of a firearm, and she just recently got it. "



Such as this:




You can make the same conclusion when it comes to weapons retention in a fanny pack where a kid or someone else can access it.
The idea of carrying a gun in any bag where keys or some other implement can cause it to fire is a bad one, but does not apply in this instance.





 

 

Thank you for the link!

"HAYDEN, Idaho - The Kootenai County Sheriff's Office says a two-year-old boy pulled his mother's gun completely out of a specially designed purse moments before it fired once, killing 29-year-old Veronica Rutledge.

The medical examiner completed Rutledge's autopsy Wednesday morning.

Sheriff's Deputies say Rutledge was shopping with her two-year-old son, and three other relatives all under the age of 11, around 10:20 Tuesday morning. Deputies say she was just a few feet away from her shopping cart when her son pulled out her concealed 9 mm Smith & Wesson M&P Shield semi-automatic handgun from her purse.

"A lot of people [are] wondering how this could have happened, why it happened, you know what's that person doing at Walmart with a handgun. Is that uncommon? It's really not," says Lt. Stu Miller of the Kootenai County Sheriff's Office.

Detectives say the purse was specifically designed for concealed carry of a firearm, and she just recently got it. Rutledge had a license to carry a concealed weapon in Washington, but due to Idaho state law the license is valid there as well.

"More states recognize that permit and if you live in Idaho, a Washington permit, you can use it in Idaho," Lt. Miller says. "The Washington permit you can use in a lot more states than for Idaho's standard permit."

Deputies say the Walmart store manager, who was nearby at the time of the shooting, stepped in and took the gun from the child. The manager and store employees then evacuated the store.

Detectives are reviewing the store's surveillance video, and looking at Rutledge's gun. Specifically, they're looking at its safety mechanism and ballistics. They're also speaking with witnesses to help complete their investigation.

Yet the Non-Safety version of the Shields list a 10.5 lbs. Trigger Pull...

I didn't see any listing for the Trigger Pull of a J frame?

I do fully agree that on-body carry is the only way to walk!

That's terrible. Off body carry of a Glock or M&P/shield with no manual safety around small kids is a definite condition 3 situation IMO.

My two year old is SO interested in my firearms I had to buy him a nerf gun to keep him off my stuff.
he shoots that thing everywhere. makes the noises and talks about the walking dead.
if im working on an ar and have the lower off my upper, he will try to handle the lower and pretend to shoot.

if I didn't lock my stuff in my safe, I am sure he would find it and handle it, the trigger pull would be tough for him I agree,
but if he had enough time to tinker with it and it was loaded(one in the chamber) im sure he could fire it. that is super scary and make my stomach turn
just thinking about the possible outcome of that...

if my pistol isn't on me, is placed in my safe, and I never store ammo in or next to my rifles or shotgun or pistols I don't carry.
I try to teach him muzzle control and safety with his toy guns he has though.

Now its the other way around, I bought a second nerf gun so we target shoot together :)

wissota4

That's tragic, but I don't find it an inherent problem in off-body carry.  She left her purse in the custody of a 2-year old, and the mistake killed her.  That's not an argument against purse carry, it's an argument that if you carry in your purse, you don't leave it in the hands of your toddler.

My mentor died at the hands of his son, b/c he left his .22" LR rifle outside of his safe, and his son is a schizophrenic.  That's not an argument for locking up all your guns all the time, just an argument that when a schizophrenic is in the house, you should lock your guns up.  

yup…pretty normal little boy.
It's a well established fact.  Firearms are little boy magnets…and big boy magnets, too.
Everyone needs to keep thoughts like this in the back of their minds at all times.

I have a 2yo son and he picks up items you would think would be too heavy and can manipulate those grabber tools. All of which is heavier then a shield and harder to pull then a shield trigger. DON'T UNDERESTIMATE KIDS!!!!! Very sad situation that's torn a family apart. I've always said off body carry is a bad idea and if you can't keep it on you then maybe you shouldn't carry it. I've often been raked over the coals and called a gun grabber in their forums for this pov. But let's be real, if your attacked chances you can access the off body is slim and it's a greater chance that is what they have attacked you for in the first place. Now you've been disarmed.

We really don't need another thread on this do we?  Here is any info on it you should need/want.

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/1701915_Fatal_Shooting_at_Walmart__Negligent_Discharge____Carry_purse_left_unattended.html&page=1

Maybe is the SEARCH function worked a little better here I wouldn't have started this one...

But after 3 dead end searches I came to 'Carry Issues', which seemed more logical than 'Genera Discussionsl' where I see Topics about motorcycles and savings accounts

Yeah, this site has to have the worst search function of any forum out there.

You're absolutely right.  Our boys overseas probably shouldn't carry their rifles slung either, they need retention holsters for their M4s so the bad guys can't sneak up and grab their rifles.  

Are we talking about rifles or uniform soldiers in a war zone? No we are talking about a mom at Walmart who can easily be mugged for her purse. All it does is provide a false sense of security which distracts from being aware and avoiding possible issues to begin with. People will do what they want and crappie like this gives the left another round In the chamber to say we are the danger. So go ahead and support bad practice all the way till it strips us of the privilege to begin with.

Ah, yes, the privilege.  How dare she exercise her privilege in a way you don't approve of.  It's a fucking RIGHT, not a privilege.

It's a right to own, privilege to carry. As deemed by our legal system. That's the way it is bub. And just like you expressed your opinion here, I've given mine. Like I said above, do what you want to.

Always need to have the trigger covered, even if it's one of those little kydex bits that cover only the trigger guard and trigger area. have a cord running off it that's sewn into the purse or something.

What I don't get about these instances is why I see over and over again that we need to keep a round chambered in a carry weapon.  Almost all of this type of incidents could be avoided by loosening the constant repetition of "an unloaded gun in a club" and accept that there are many instances where both not keeping a round chambered and practicing cocking the pistol on the draw would save lives.  If we can accept this one thing, most children killed with handgun accidents would go away.
I realize that cocking the pistol on the draw takes time.  However, if you are consistently in such dangerous situations that your life depends on that 1/4 second, I think a good exception should be made.  I get loading and cocking a weapon when entering a known dangerous environment.  Makes sense.  But that should include unloading the gun when back in a safe location, which most places are.  Very few of us live in Mogadishu or Chicago.
Why is this attitude considered crazy here?

Carrying with an unloaded chamber isn’t necessarily “crazy”.  For some people, perhaps it’s a sensible choice.
But there are problems.  Here are four that I can think of and I’m sure others will add additional ones.
1) Time DOES matter.  Dangerous situations can evolve suddenly and unpredictably.  This has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with being in “Mogadishu”.
2) The act of loading a chamber carries an inherent risk factor of resulting in a jam, especially if executed under stress, or duress.
3) Loading and then, subsequent unloading of a weapon constitutes “handling” and this carries potential for accidents.  
4) Concealed carry generally precludes extraneous weapon’s handling as this may constitute brandishing.

ETA: 5) Don't assume that you will have both hands available for manipulating the slide.  I kind of doubt that Zimmerman racked the slide of his Kel-Tec while Martin was sitting astride his chest beating his head into the pavement.

I agree with those points.  
Point number three is actually one for my position.  If you are carrying loaded you should be unloading far more often than  if you carry without a chambered round.
Unless you leave loaded guns around all the time.  Which ends up in tragedy far too often and gives ammunition to gun grabbers.

I've lived 38 years and have never needed to soot anyone or even needed a firearm to get out of a situation.  Maybe I'm lucky but I think I'm pretty average for an American.  

It's surprising to myself that those points can outweigh a child's death for so many people.  If we are willing to die for our children, we should be willing to keep our guns in a slightly safer carry.

I think allowing your child access to your purse (or whatever bag used for off body carry) when it contains a firearm (whether chambered or not) shows a complete lack of ability to be responsible with said firearm.  Negligence should never be confused with accidents.  Calling this tragedy an accident is a gross misrepresentation of the actions of the mother.

If you are not 100% in control of your firearm 100% of the time, then you are 100% not in control of your firearm 100% of the time.

T

Yep a 2YO can certainly pull a gun trigger. Don't know why that myth keeps getting rehashed.

A 2 YO can pull a trigger but even an eight year old would not be able to rack a slide.