User Panel
Posted: 1/9/2012 8:03:24 AM EDT
Just FYI:
http://lightfighter.net/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/1931084651/m/86120086563/p/3 Originally posted by "Pyro"": FYI - FLETC and many OIGs have discontinued the use of the Blackhawk SERPA Subject: FW: Officer Safety Bulletin: Blackhawk SERPA Auto Lock System Holster A CITP student accidentally discharged his weapon into his thigh at FLETC/Glynco last week. He had purchased a Blackhawk SERPA Auto Lock System holster and was using it for the first time. In October of this year, an agent shot himself in the buttocks during a staff qualification at FLETC Cheltenham using a Blackhawk SERPA. USAF OSI has prohibited their personnel from purchasing or carrying this holster. The below notice was disseminated last week to all 1811s in HHS OIG, and they have given me permission to share it with the IG community's 1811 population. SPECIAL BULLETIN National Training and Emergency Operations Branch Officer Safety Bulletin Good Afternoon, In our efforts to continually stay abreast of issues relating to officer safety, the National Training and Emergency Operations Branch (NTEOB) routinely evaluates the law enforcement equipment issued to or carried by OI personnel. Recently, one such piece of equipment, the Blackhawk SERPA Auto Lock System holster, has come under scrutiny due to safety concerns involving the design of its retention safety device. There have been several recent documented cases, involving law enforcement and civilian personnel, where unintentional discharges have occurred while weapons were being drawn from this holster. Many of these unintentional discharges have resulted in gunshot injuries to the officers/agents involved. The SERPA is one of the only holster system designed to use the trigger finger to release the retention safety device. This method of releasing the safety device is contrary to our training methods and techniques, which emphasize attacking the holster from the "top down." In addition, this retention system is completely different from the standard thumb-break holsters currently issued by OI. While it is true that one of the Cardinal Rules of firearms safety was violated by the individual placing his or her finger on the trigger before they were ready to shoot, we believe that the design of the SERPA holster facilitates this action by engaging the trigger finger well before the individual is prepared to shoot. In light of these events and in accordance with OI policy, specifically Part 2, Section 2, Subsection IV B, NTEOB is suspending all use of the Blackhawk SERPA Auto Lock System holster by OI agents acting in an official, on-duty capacity. NTEOB will thoroughly research and evaluate the safety and effectiveness of this holster system and report on its findings. In the meantime, those agents who may be affected by this safety bulletin should be directed to utilize their standard agency-issued holster to secure their weapon on their person. As a reminder, new standard issue holsters were previously issued to all OI 1811s. This is the recommended holster system. Should agents wish to purchase a holster, they should be informed that all holsters have to be approved by National Firearms Coordinator/NTEOB, as per policy. Thank you in advance for your assistance and cooperation. The poster "Pyro" on LF isn't making that up. Multiple sources have confirmed that bulletin went out. |
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I'm curious as to whether any of the accidental discharges involved 1911's. If the pistol was in condition one, I don't see how it could happen unless the
person deactivated the safety as he was drawing. I would also like to know the experience level of those involved and how much they actually practiced with the holster with an unloaded weapon prior to putting the holster in use.
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Well, to be fair, FLETC is usually a bit slow so we should cut them some slack. It was only a matter of .... what ...... years?
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Keep your booger hook off the bang switch when reholstering. ...which is easier to do if one isn't required to use one's trigger finger to release the weapon from the holster. |
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I'm curious as to whether any of the accidental discharges involved 1911's. If the pistol was in condition one, I don't see how it could happen unless the person deactivated the safety as he was drawing. I would also like to know the experience level of those involved and how much they actually practiced with the holster with an unloaded weapon prior to putting the holster in use. Given that we're talking about FLETC, it's highly unlikely it was a 1911. |
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Keep your booger hook off the bang switch when reholstering. No shit. Lowest common denominatore and all. You can hate 'em, but it all comes down to the above post...... |
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Ban any holster that is involved in a ND. Booger Digging Morgan's.
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Keep your booger hook off the bang switch when reholstering. No shit. Lowest common denominatore and all. You can hate 'em, but it all comes down to the above post...... The NDs are happening on the withdrawing of the pistol, not reholstering. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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Keep your booger hook off the bang switch when reholstering. No shit. Lowest common denominatore and all. You can hate 'em, but it all comes down to the above post...... The NDs are happening on the withdrawing of the pistol, not reholstering. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile Ban all holsters that this happens with. |
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I know MULTIPLE people PERSONALLY who have shot themselves while using that crappy holster including an active duty (I guess?) national guard buddy of mine.
My FTO years ago had his serpa FREEZE SHUT and it took him 2 minutes to thaw it out enough to actually draw his gun. I may forward this to the upper management at my dept. they still issue the serpa to rookies to carry off duty. |
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Quoted: I may forward this to the upper management at my dept. they still issue the serpa to rookies to carry off duty. I'm sorry about that. |
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Tex approves of this move. If you mean me, then yes. You are correct. It's a bad design. I much prefer the ThumbDrive or ALS. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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Was it the level 3 duty holster? Border Patrol has those. At least some do.
ETA: Nevermind. I see it's CITP. Non uniform. Level 2 it is.... |
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Quoted: Are you the guy who shot himself on the youtube video and appeared on the Tosh.0 show? That's the "Tex" they are referring to. Quoted: Tex approves of this move. If you mean me, then yes. You are correct. It's a bad design. I much prefer the ThumbDrive or ALS. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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Are you the guy who shot himself on the youtube video and appeared on the Tosh.0 show? That's the "Tex" they are referring to.
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Tex approves of this move. If you mean me, then yes. You are correct. It's a bad design. I much prefer the ThumbDrive or ALS. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile No, that's TexGrebner. Lol! KillerB6 posted right after me. |
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Quoted: Wow, in 19 years of LE, i've only met (1) person who's ever accidentally shot himself, and that was with a carelessly reholstered 1911 (pancake holster). I'm thinking you need new friends... We use the SERPA but freezing holsters are not an issue in most of Texas. I know MULTIPLE people PERSONALLY who have shot themselves while using that crappy holster including an active duty (I guess?) national guard buddy of mine. My FTO years ago had his serpa FREEZE SHUT and it took him 2 minutes to thaw it out enough to actually draw his gun. I may forward this to the upper management at my dept. they still issue the serpa to rookies to carry off duty. Anyone have a clean link to the Bulletin? |
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Quoted: Quoted: I'm curious as to whether any of the accidental discharges involved 1911's. If the pistol was in condition one, I don't see how it could happen unless the person deactivated the safety as he was drawing. I would also like to know the experience level of those involved and how much they actually practiced with the holster with an unloaded weapon prior to putting the holster in use. Given that we're talking about FLETC, it's highly unlikely it was a 1911. No, probably not. But there are a few departments that either issue or allow personally owned to be carried. And in my experience, if an officer is carrying a 1911, he usually knows his stuff and would not be likely to err in such a situation. Although, I can see where this particular holster type could cause multiple examples, I would think the majority of them were by people who only shoot when required by the department. I've known many cops who were not into guns and did not practice on their own. For the most part, they were less proficient and more likely to have an accidental discharge. But to be fair, I've also known a couple who shot often, were competent and safety conscious, and still had an accidental discharge. And yes, I have. It took about 45 years for it to happen, but it did happen. I was fortunate and no one was injured and damage was minimal and owned by me. |
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It has other problems, as well. Not just the retention release "lever" placement.
http://link.brightcove.com/services/player/bcpid53246191001?bckey=AQ~~,AAAACnIIBGk~,NZYO3xUDM_E0TWMBUpCe8YivKyjrCCqn&bctid=1155868233001 http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_9_4/231057_SERPA_failure_video___SouthNarc_and_Paul_Gomez_.html http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=McE1zyDiEMQ |
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Saw it personally on a 1911 draw.
Avoidable with training (i.e. saftey comes off AFTER the gun swings up past 45 degree's or more, not as it clears the holster). You know when a specific style of ND is called a "Serpa bang" that even though it may primarily be a training issue, it's exacerbated by a gear issue. |
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Get rid of Glocks and you won't have that problem. I'd rather get rid of cheap, shitty holsters. |
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Wow are you all that slow to realize this message has nothing to do with the 1911 Pistol varients! Consider the source then think. FLETC is a Federal Agency. 1811 is the Job series code for Law Enforcement Special Agents. Come on guys.
BTW. I carried my M9 in a BH Serpa Thigh Rig for 15 months in Iraq. And trained post deployment for a year after as well with the same setup. That holster is made to draw so your trigger finger remains indexed along the frame while.drawing. I never once found myself accidentally hooking the trigger upon drawing. People that have that problem likely lack appropriate firearms handling skills. Rant over. |
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Shackleton, the issues I posted were not just the trigger finger actuated release "lever" and it's training issues. The lock also can be jammed shut. And the entire holster can physically fail a retention test.
And it's got nothing to do with which model of pistol is in the holster. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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Quoted:]...USAF OSI has prohibited their personnel from purchasing or carrying this holster....
Haven't heard anything about this yet from our Command. There are requirements a personally procured holster must meet, but the Serpa does that. I've only known two Agents to use the Serpa. I really like the issue holster. |
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Shackleton, the issues I posted were not just the trigger finger actuated release "lever" and it's training issues. The lock also can be jammed shut. And the entire holster can physically fail a retention test. And it's got nothing to do with which model of pistol is in the holster. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile I don't care what you posted about. And spell my name right if your going to use it in your post. Any holster design that is somewhat mechanical can fail, its mechanical. I was referring to the fact that the majority of the responses in this post mentioned the 1911, something that is NOT mentioned in the original post about FLETC banning the design. like I also said; I ran mine in Iraq for 15 months in dust, mud, and all sorts of other crap that attracts to anything while over there. Keep your rig clean and PMCS your shit. Oh and hope somebody doesn't bring you to the ground and go to comabtives with you. If that happens you better hope your buddies are there with you anyway. (Referring to a youtube vid where someone gets the SERPA gummed up). Have a great day. |
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If that happens you better hope your buddies are there with you anyway. Plenty of dashcam footage demonstrates that coppers don't usually have that going for them. So that's kind of a big deal. |
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Shackleton1, there's videos and reports of complete structural failures of the Serpa. It's got 3 strikes of fail against it.
The lock release "lever" is actuated by the trigger finger. Under stress, it often gets treated like a button while the draw is rushed. This has led to multiple documented cases of "Serpa leg." The lock release is easily jammed closed by debris. Yes, we should keep our equipment clean. But the world is a dirty place, and Murphy hates us. The entire holster has structurally failed in retaining both the pistol and the belt. The design is weak. I'm not making this stuff up. Do a Google search for "serpa failure" and there's a lot of info out there. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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Shackleton1, there's videos and reports of complete structural failures of the Serpa. It's got 3 strikes of fail against it. The lock release "lever" is actuated by the trigger finger. Under stress, it often gets treated like a button while the draw is rushed. This has led to multiple documented cases of "Serpa leg." The lock release is easily jammed closed by debris. Yes, we should keep our equipment clean. But the world is a dirty place, and Murphy hates us. The entire holster has structurally failed in retaining both the pistol and the belt. The design is weak. I'm not making this stuff up. Do a Google search for "serpa failure" and there's a lot of info out there. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile What you are is a bantering, fixated, hyper critical, holster critic. I say we ban any holster the shooter fires his gun into. It's fair. The holster made him duet. The SERPA bash is getting old. |
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Shackleton1, there's videos and reports of complete structural failures of the Serpa. It's got 3 strikes of fail against it. The lock release "lever" is actuated by the trigger finger. Under stress, it often gets treated like a button while the draw is rushed. This has led to multiple documented cases of "Serpa leg." The lock release is easily jammed closed by debris. Yes, we should keep our equipment clean. But the world is a dirty place, and Murphy hates us. The entire holster has structurally failed in retaining both the pistol and the belt. The design is weak. I'm not making this stuff up. Do a Google search for "serpa failure" and there's a lot of info out there. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile What you are is a bantering, fixated, hyper critical, holster critic. I say we ban any holster the shooter fires his gun into. It's fair. The holster made him duet. The SERPA bash is getting old. I sold my Taser stock. I suggest you sell your Serpa stock. |
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Shackleton1, there's videos and reports of complete structural failures of the Serpa. It's got 3 strikes of fail against it. The lock release "lever" is actuated by the trigger finger. Under stress, it often gets treated like a button while the draw is rushed. This has led to multiple documented cases of "Serpa leg." The lock release is easily jammed closed by debris. Yes, we should keep our equipment clean. But the world is a dirty place, and Murphy hates us. The entire holster has structurally failed in retaining both the pistol and the belt. The design is weak. I'm not making this stuff up. Do a Google search for "serpa failure" and there's a lot of info out there. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile What you are is a bantering, fixated, hyper critical, holster critic. I say we ban any holster the shooter fires his gun into. It's fair. The holster made him duet. The SERPA bash is getting old. If a holster has a history of problems why is pointing that out "bashing"? The Sheriff's Department I used to work for issued plainclothes deputies Fobus holsters but you don't see me defending them... |
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What you are is a bantering, fixated, hyper critical, holster critic. When the folks who run FLETC sit down and examine all sides of this thing and come to the conclusion that the Serpa is sub-optimal, are they being hyper-critical holster critics? ...or might there be a legit issue? Nobody likes to hear that their gear sucks, but some gear really does suck. |
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What you are is a bantering, fixated, hyper critical, holster critic. I do enjoy bantering, and I am hyper-critical in my fixation of criticism for the Serpa. It's a bad design, both the holster mounting and the lock release. The serpa sucks. Get over it. A lot of emotion in this thread, and not enough reason. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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Quoted: Keep your booger hook off the bang switch when reholstering. Drawing is where the problem usually comes in. |
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Snip What you are is a bantering, fixated, hyper critical, holster critic. Snip The holster made him duet. Is bantering the word you meant to use? Do it =/= duet. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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Quoted: Quoted: Snip What you are is a bantering, fixated, hyper critical, holster critic. Snip The holster made him duet. Is bantering the word you meant to use? Do it =/= duet. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile I usually just ignore people who have no understanding of how to use the English language. |
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Honestly, people, is a quality holster so much to ask for when you are putting a lethal means of force in it and carrying it every day??? I mean, you spend $30 minimum on a Blackhawk range holster that conceals for shit and has....(ahem)....issues. Can you afford $80 for a MTAC? Can you??? Is your life worth the extra $50???
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This video is one reason I am not a fan of Serpa holsters. I found it after no longer using mine though.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bv1WLkKZSNE I used one for a short time, but went to a Safariland that operates the same as my military issue holster. I have also played with a G&G level two for a bit, but am going back to the Safariland stuff. |
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Quoted: Can you afford $80 for a MTAC? Can you??? Is your life worth the extra $50??? You already know the answer to your question. I had a customer that wanted a synthetic stock for his Weatherby MkV. He was enamored with the Ram-Line stock because it was cheap. While I was attempting to talk him out of the Ram-Line, I noticed he had a Tasco Scope on his rifle. At this point, I gave up and sold him the Ram-Line, telling him that for the price, he could not get a better synthetic stock. A fool and his money were lucky enough to meet in the first place. |
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People that can't manage to draw from a SERPA without shooting themselves probabyl shouldn't be carrying a gun.
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Quoted: People that can't manage to draw from a SERPA without shooting themselves probabyl shouldn't be carrying a gun. really... |
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I'm not particularly smart or clever, but every time I draw from any of my Serpa holsters my trigger finger ends up extended straight out above the trigger along the frame of the gun.
So if you're stupider than me, don't use a Serpa. If you are as smart as or smarter than me, you should be fine. |
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Quoted: I'm not particularly smart or clever, but every time I draw from any of my Serpa holsters my trigger finger ends up extended straight out above the trigger along the frame of the gun. So if you're stupider than me, don't use a Serpa. If you are as smart as or smarter than me, you should be fine. You do know that there are other issues aside from the draw issue don't you? Most of the people who shoot themselves or have NDs are new to the serpa platform and are going faster than they should. |
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What advantages does the Serpa offer over other retention holsters than makes it better enough to justify requiring a more educated/trained user so as not to increase the chances of shooting oneself?
If this same kind of issue was happening in any other industry the product would have been discontinued, recalled, and settlements paid out. |
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Keep your booger hook off the bang switch when reholstering. ...which is easier to do if one isn't required to use one's trigger finger to release the weapon from the holster. This. Then go to a good pistol class and be put under moderate duress and watch all of your perfected skills start to slip. It works just fine when you're standing in front of the mirror thinking "okay, don't touch the trigger" and draw the pistol. |
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