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Posted: 1/16/2015 11:41:23 PM EDT
[#1]
adding foam or paracord on the buffertube and putting on cheek, shoulder consist as a redesign too?
im wondering is the redesign because you added a part and redesigned how your using it what about the sig pistols that part was included in the sale, im assuming already attached to the tube but that im not really sure of now to me if you bought it brand new, from sig like that your just using it how it came I can see adding a brace later then not using it correctly is a little easier to make the case on redesign that is if we throw out the first 2 letters that made it seem like there was no wrong way to use the pistol now there is a wrong way to use it |
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Posted: 1/17/2015 12:17:58 AM EDT
[#2]
Yup.
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Posted: 1/17/2015 1:39:23 AM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
adding foam or paracord on the buffertube and putting on cheek, shoulder consist as a redesign too? im wondering is the redesign because you added a part and redesigned how your using it what about the sig pistols that part was included in the sale, im assuming already attached to the tube but that im not really sure of now to me if you bought it brand new, from sig like that your just using it how it came I can see adding a brace later then not using it correctly is a little easier to make the case on redesign that is if we throw out the first 2 letters that made it seem like there was no wrong way to use the pistol now there is a wrong way to use it Being included in the sale has nothing to do with it. They are saying its ok to use an arm brace as an arm brace, since that is how it was designed to be used. They are saying when you shoulder it and use it as a stock, you aren't using it as designed but as a stock instead. A stock makes a pistol an SBR. If anyone is surprised by this they are crazy. It was obvious this was going to come someday when the arm brace craze kicked off after the first letter went out saying it was ok to shoulder them. If you actually read this new letter... it says the opinions in all previous letters about the arm brace are now invalid because they were wrong. |
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Posted: 1/17/2015 1:54:56 AM EDT
[#4]
Fuck BATFE
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Posted: 1/17/2015 2:43:02 AM EDT
[#5]
Makes perfect sence. I guess firing your rifle one handed makes it a pistol...?
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Posted: 1/17/2015 2:46:41 AM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Makes perfect sence. I guess firing your rifle one handed makes it a pistol...? Thinking the same thing. lol |
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Posted: 1/17/2015 3:24:32 AM EDT
[#7]
If you have both eyes closed when you shoulder it, Does it count?
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Posted: 1/17/2015 5:05:07 AM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Fuck BATFE This. |
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Posted: 1/17/2015 9:51:08 AM EDT
[#9]
Where would someone who doesn't surf gun forums get this information? Is it going to be running around the clock on local news channels that this is now illegal? The ATF is a f'ing joke and there is no way they can enforce this.
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Posted: 1/17/2015 10:45:13 AM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Where would someone who doesn't surf gun forums get this information? Is it going to be running around the clock on local news channels that this is now illegal? The ATF is a f'ing joke and there is no way they can enforce this. Yup, just like 922r and the AWB. |
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Posted: 1/17/2015 11:08:03 AM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Where would someone who doesn't surf gun forums get this information? Is it going to be running around the clock on local news channels that this is now illegal? The ATF is a f'ing joke and there is no way they can enforce this. yes thats my point someone buys this ar rifle with brace from sig and may not be up to date on things like sbr, and just thought oh thats a nice priced rifle unless sig is smart enough to send those owners who had registered it with them letters all the time I mean one reason I bought the sig brace was because of the original letter shown online then I think a version 2 letter came out also saying good I believe just recently Sort of misleading especially since it came with a letter in the box saying its okay to use however you want sure its sold as an arm brace but the legal letter it came with also made it seem like there was no wrong way to shoot a pistol wonder if sig is going to get any lawsuits because of the letter included because the arm brace still has a use, but its not worth the risk if even the person using the brace strapped legit then decides to take it off and put into shoulder maybe to reload it, or just to check the sights since you really cant use the sights strapped on your arm depending on how your arm is and the sights used why its nice to be able to reposition it I mean to me a brace is a brace brace on your arm, or brace on your shoulder |
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Posted: 1/17/2015 12:44:38 PM EDT
[#12]
Until they start arresting people, I'll still use mine.
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Posted: 1/17/2015 1:34:01 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Until they start arresting people, I'll still use mine. I won't shoulder it ever. Not worth it here in the second/third most communist state (IL). But, aesthetically, I think it improves the appearance of an AK/AR pistol, and now that the primary appeal of them is gone, I have to imagine that the pricing will crater. Who the hell would pay $115 for a piece of plastic/nylon/rubber that literally costs $5-10 to manufacture? If we assume Sig needs a 50% gross margin, and retailers need a 50% gross margin then the price should be $20-40 / pop. When they get to $50, I'll buy a few. I feel slightly sorry for all the morons who paid over $100 for these goofy things. 
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Posted: 1/17/2015 1:58:26 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I feel slightly sorry for all the morons who paid over $100 for these goofy things.
If I never use it again, I can say I got $100 worth of fun out of mine. |
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Posted: 1/17/2015 2:21:27 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yup, just like 922r and the AWB. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Where would someone who doesn't surf gun forums get this information? Is it going to be running around the clock on local news channels that this is now illegal? The ATF is a f'ing joke and there is no way they can enforce this. Yup, just like 922r and the AWB. This. There will be mostly likely more challenges and lawsuits coming as this is unenforceable and the definition of intent is broad. Any decent lawyer can and would argue that the BATF cannot enforce their definition of reclassifying a firearm simply by the way you hold it. |
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Posted: 1/17/2015 5:59:08 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Thinking the same thing. lol Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Makes perfect sence. I guess firing your rifle one handed makes it a pistol...? Thinking the same thing. lol Someone write this letter and ask! |
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Posted: 1/17/2015 6:13:30 PM EDT
[#17]
so i can put it to my cheek but not shoulder? ok
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Posted: 1/17/2015 9:59:28 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
so i can put it to my cheek but not shoulder? ok Exactly my thought. If it grazes my shoulder, that wasn't my intent or a redesign. The ATF can suck the big one. |
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Posted: 1/17/2015 10:26:05 PM EDT
[#19]
So when I first got my m92pap with no brace and I fired it with it a little to close to my eye and the rear Trunion hit my cheek did it become a rifle.
 good thing I have a stamp now.
The manufacturers have a liability issue now. Remington is recalling thousands of rifles because the might accidentally fire. Century, sig and numerous others have rifles that might get you raped in a federal prison with a inserted opinion letter that is invalid. It will be interesting to see how they handle this. Personally I think ATF isn't planning mass arrests of individuals. We will see. People have surely shouldered buffer tube AR's before the brace and that is clearly now a no no. |
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Posted: 1/17/2015 11:06:47 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Exactly my thought. If it grazes my shoulder, that wasn't my intent or a redesign. The ATF can suck the big one. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
so i can put it to my cheek but not shoulder? ok Exactly my thought. If it grazes my shoulder, that wasn't my intent or a redesign. The ATF can suck the big one. Dont shoulder it, tricep it. Its a arm brace after all. |
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Posted: 1/18/2015 9:16:09 AM EDT
[#21]
So the question is if you have a pistol with a Arm brace and you are not shouldering the weapon but put your left hand on the front hand guard are you now in violation ?
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Posted: 1/18/2015 9:16:27 AM EDT
[#22]
No worries. My brace is a pre-ban model.
This was inevitable as folks kept pushing the envelope. The pragmatic approach of the earlier letters was refreshing, but not typical of governmental organizations. But yes, it's only a matter of time until someone posts a video of shooting from the shoulder after this edict was issued, and there could be interesting times ahead. |
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Posted: 1/18/2015 10:53:36 AM EDT
[#23]
For just a little more $ and a long wait you have a legal SBR. I agree this reversal should surprise no one. I get the whole keeping a loaded pistol in my car is legal etc. and that was the only argument that almost made sense to me.
I chose to purchase a trust on black Friday instead of a brace because it seemed too good to be true. |
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Posted: 1/18/2015 1:18:38 PM EDT
[#24]
I'm not surprised. The device was designed to be used as an arm brace, & Sig figured it could be abused & used as a butt stock. That's why it's so expensive, as it's skirting the law, & a way to own a quasi SBR. These days, an E-file form 1 is taking about 32 days. If you buy a new Z06 Corvette, it's legal to own, but just don't get caught driving it 125 mph on the highway. As long as you don't exceed the speed limit, it's perfectly legal to drive. At the LGS where I work, no AR pistol is shipped to us with the brace installed. The brace comes in a separate package where one of the employees will install the brace. Hmmm, wonder why. So if you want a SBR, do an E-file & wait a month. To me, the 922 parts count is nothing to worry about, but shouldering a pistol with a brace is much more serious. I had the choice a year ago, & did it the right way by purchasing a stamp. I mean how many people actually use the brace as it was designed to be used? But if you do, it's perfectly legal to use. Buy a can of whipped cream to improve a pie, or cake & all is good. But buy that can to huff & you're breaking the law. GARY
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Posted: 1/18/2015 1:24:58 PM EDT
[#25]
Dup.
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Posted: 1/18/2015 2:22:46 PM EDT
[#26]
You can bitch at the ATF all you want but the real fault lies with the "morons" that kept posting "is it legal to shoulder" on various gun boards. If you had just kept your mouth shut and used it the way you wanted BATFE would have left "you" alone. They would have a hard time ignoring the controversy after being asked for a clarification over and over again.
That's why I suck it up and pay the stupid tax for an SBR (8 times now) |
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Posted: 1/18/2015 2:26:44 PM EDT
[#27]
When will people make videos of themselves firing their handguns from the shoulder?
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Posted: 1/18/2015 2:54:49 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If I never use it again, I can say I got $100 worth of fun out of mine. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I feel slightly sorry for all the morons who paid over $100 for these goofy things.
If I never use it again, I can say I got $100 worth of fun out of mine. Meh. Timing sucked for me. Just got my underfolder parts a few days ago and posted my brace in the EE. It sold relatively quickly at $85; others are selling between $65-100. I could have probably got my money back if I posted earlier this week, but oh well. Quoted:
When will people make videos of themselves firing their handguns from the shoulder? Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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Posted: 1/19/2015 12:52:40 AM EDT
[#29]
Pay $200, get approval, engrave, install a real stock, and hold it however the hell you want. Problem solved. If you are in a non-SBR state, I suppose that sucks, so shoot your pistol like a pistol with that lame arm brace. Dead before dawn....
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Posted: 1/26/2015 10:52:56 AM EDT
[#30]
Bwaaaa haaa haaaa!
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Posted: 2/9/2015 2:17:56 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
When will people make videos of themselves firing their handguns from the shoulder? As soon as I get a chance |
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Posted: 2/9/2015 2:37:24 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
As soon as I get a chance Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
When will people make videos of themselves firing their handguns from the shoulder? As soon as I get a chance |
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Posted: 2/10/2015 2:21:33 PM EDT
[#33]
You guys know they went back and once again reversed their statement it is now ok to own a brace it is not ok to shoulder it. but they also stated that they can only tell you how it is designed to be used. so quit your bitching life goes on quit calling and writing the atf and they will forget about it.
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Posted: 2/10/2015 3:16:17 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You guys know they went back and once again reversed their statement it is now ok to own a brace it is not ok to shoulder it. but they also stated that they can only tell you how it is designed to be used. so quit your bitching life goes on quit calling and writing the atf and they will forget about it. Got a link? I haven't seen this one yet, thanks |
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Posted: 2/10/2015 4:14:08 PM EDT
[#35]
I'll worry about it when someone ends up in a court battle over it and a precedent is set.
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Posted: 2/11/2015 6:18:19 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Got a link? I haven't seen this one yet, thanks Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
You guys know they went back and once again reversed their statement it is now ok to own a brace it is not ok to shoulder it. but they also stated that they can only tell you how it is designed to be used. so quit your bitching life goes on quit calling and writing the atf and they will forget about it. Got a link? I haven't seen this one yet, thanks It never would have gotten to this point if "everyone" had kept their mouth shut, stopped calling BATFE and just used the brace the way they wanted. BATFE "originally" said shouldering the brace "did not" make it an SBR. I saw that first letter. It was only "after" they received hundreds of phone calls and letters that they changed their minds and issued the new standings. Lesson is STOP CALLING BATFE Rant over...................... |
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Posted: 2/11/2015 10:01:56 PM EDT
[#37]
ATF and Sig were working together to make a big profit then screw everyone.
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Posted: 2/11/2015 10:12:27 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
For just a little more $ and a long wait you have a legal SBR. I agree this reversal should surprise no one. I get the whole keeping a loaded pistol in my car is legal etc. and that was the only argument that almost made sense to me. I chose to purchase a trust on black Friday instead of a brace because it seemed too good to be true. I don't want a SBR. It's not the money, it's not the wait, its the regulations. I don't want to fill out the form I don't want to ask for permission to go from state to state and I want to be able to keep a loaded pistol in my car. I don't want to apply to the ATF even if it was free and instant. |
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Posted: 2/15/2015 1:32:06 PM EDT
[#39]
There has never been one variable 922r violation prosecution where someone was arrested at a range shooting a "non-compliant weapon" and I doubt there will ever be for "misuse" of a pistol brace. Its would be almost impossible to prove and stand up in court since the device itself is legal. Just don't be a moron and run down to the public range and shoulder the thing ripping off rounds. What type of shooting you do on private land is just that private. keep your business off the web and stop flaunting and antagonizing the BATF. We all know all this regulatory crap is worthless and makes no sense. How could the BATF technical review people look at the SIG brace or SB47 and think no one would shoulder these devices?
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Posted: 2/15/2015 1:41:01 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
There has never been one variable 922r violation prosecution where someone was arrested at a range shooting a "non-compliant weapon" and I doubt there will ever be for "misuse" of a pistol brace. Its would be almost impossible to prove and stand up in court since the device itself is legal. Just don't be a moron and run down to the public range an shoulder the thing ripping of rounds. What type of shooting you do on private land is just that private. Someone will be the first to get arrested and wither convicted or plea out for shouldering a brace. Who that someone is I dunno. |
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Posted: 2/15/2015 1:43:05 PM EDT
[#41]
Likely another You Tube moron. 99.9 percent of LEO's are clueless to these laws and I doubt the ATF has the resources and manpower to waste to have agents hanging out at public ranges looking to bust brace violators. Keep the shit off the web. That's what made this an issue in the first place.
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Posted: 2/15/2015 4:35:37 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Likely another You Tube moron. 99.9 percent of LEO's are clueless to these laws and I doubt the ATF has the resources and manpower to waste to have agents hanging out at public ranges looking to bust brace violators. Keep the shit off the web. That's what made this an issue in the first place. Yea, your average Field Office, even Case Agent, is going to have their own case load consisting of legitimate investigations to bother with trolling ranges to open up new ones for relatively petty and almost impossible to adjudicate offenses. |
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Posted: 2/15/2015 7:36:46 PM EDT
[#43]
I think this has run it's course.....
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Posted: 2/15/2015 7:37:05 PM EDT
[#44]
system message
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