A question has come up on another venue regarding measurement of AOL on an AK pistol. One person has attached a buffer tube to his AK pistol and then attached the SB15 arm brace to the buffer tube. The total length from the end of the muzzle device to the end of the buffer tube is 29.25". However, the measurement from the end of the muzzle to the end of the receiver/trunion is less that 26". Can he legally attach a VFG to this combination?

Current thread regarding that:

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_4_98/156824_M92_with_sig_brace_AND_vert_grip_.html

Nobody knows, no exact ruling. Note Dolomite's letter to ATF for ruling in thread above.

OAL on ass end is measured to end of  stock or the "firearm". The question is what is actually part of the firearm? Up until a week ago,  the 26"/VFG niche ruling has ONLY been applied directly to a direct impingement AR. On the other hand, it "seems" buffer tube was applied to a "shotgun/firearm" in the new ruling discussed at end of the above thread. But incomplete info on that, as we only have the last page of the letter, and I am suspicious of that whole ruling by that "acting director" of a subdivision of  FTB.

I myself would not rely on anything adding to legal OAL on the ass end of an AK pistol until the specific ruling comes in. Indeed, I question even a folding adapter on a direct impingement AR buffer tube as contributing and would not count it in OAL for purposes of using the VFG either.

In short, it is clear that a stock and whatever attaches it to a firearm counts in OAL of a long gun, but anything else is gray at best right now. Of course, it has never been an issue until this niche exception for AOW came up not very long ago, as federally there is no minimum/maximum OAL or barrel length specifications for a handgun.

- OS

As mentioned, it counted on the Black Aces model. By logical extension (grain of salt: ATF) it should count on an AK pistol as well.

At the very least it should contribute to its Hotmail.

I'm glad to see this has already been discussed and I apologize for starting a dupe. I commented in the other thread and I'm interested to hear what the ATF rules on the issue. Thanks!

My take on it is an receiver extension is a NECESSARY part of the AR. It is NOT on an AK. So I'd assume any extension rear of an AK receiver would be deemed a "stock", however that is not the case since they've allowed the SB47 (which boggles my mind, since that is not a rubberized strap fixed to a pistol part, that is an entire fixture added to the rear).
As more and more products keep coming out, skirting the regulations, it will undoubtedly push the ATF to start making harder lines in the sand (and I fear it will not be in our favor).

My .02 would be that if you welded the SB47 to the gun then it would be counted in OAL sort of as a muzzle device on a carbine to get to an OAL of a rifle.  Since the device does is not "necessary" for function.  
YMMV

Well, since you can't weld plastic, they'd have to go with length of whatever metal holds it. But that is certainly within the possibility of what they could decide, that OAL is dependent on "permanent" features on either end.

In the AK world though you got the problem of welding aluminum to steel. Or are the grip prongs steel? Even if they are, the tube is aluminum, and not permanently attached to the prongs.


- OS

JB Weld?

Yeah I was talking about welding the buffer tube/part that holds the buffer tube to the rifle itself.  I didn't take in to consideration the different materials(steel vs. aluminum).  

Good point on how the buffer tube still wouldn't be permanently attached though as I guess staking the buffer tube still wouldn't make it permanent.

So if we had a steel bracket that held the buffer tube and welded that to the AK, then got a steel castle nut(don't think they make those) and welded the castle nut to the buffer tube holder(after putting it on the buffer and staking it in) so it could be permanently affixed to the gun would be one way to permanently attatch it to the AK.
Did that sentence make sense anywhere besides my head?^^^


ETA:  I recall watching a youtube video and the person on it claimed he had his Century SB47 buffer tube holder welded to his AK because he did not like the idea of it being held on by the grip screw.

Just a note among the opining, AR castle nuts are indeed steel. Dunno what composition, but they are magnetic.

- OS

Well there I go again not knowing my metals and what not.  I just assumed as most things on the AR that it was aluminum.

Are buffer tubes welded onto AR15's?

This brings up the point that while an AR requires a buffer tube for semi automatic operation, it is not required for function as a single shot.



 

No. However with direct impingement (and some piston) models, obviously considered part of the firearm. (OAL measured to end of stock or end of the firearm).

I would say it's just as iffy claiming a buffer tube contributes to OAL on an AR type that doesn't require it for operation as it is for an AK.

- OS

Function as designed would be the logical test, I'd say. You can shoot a rifle without a stock too, but the stock counts in OAL.

Shooting with an open ended receiver on an AR could require some serious dental reconstruction, btw.

- OS

As long as the gas is turned off it's just a funny bolt action.



The as designed argument could be used for the new weapon as well.  As the maker of a new firearm your design includes a brace to strap to your arm and therefore it adds to the length of the firearm.



 

We'll perhaps get an idea eventually. Meanwhile, best of luck to anyone who depends on that.

The obvious distinction they'll have to make is just what constitutes the ass end of a firearm, what the measurement is taken to if no grip or stock extends further.

Perhaps if one gets a manufacturing license, the sky will be the limit, who knows. There's already a ruling about that on short barreled shotguns with pistol grip, but 26" OAL, legal if bought from manufacturer, not legal to make yourself, for example. Maybe it'll have to do with "permanency" as has been suggested. Maybe decision will be limited to a "buffer tube" only, no way to predict these cats.


- OS

Care to cite that? Last I checked individuals aren't exempt just because.

Talking about firearm like this:



And can't put my finger right on the doc, but you're technically right and I'm wrong in the way I stated it, an individual can make one from a shotgun that "came from the factory" (originally configured) with a pistol grip only. But making one from a shotgun originally configured with a buttstock is a no go.

I believe a finer point is that you can also legally do it if you can score a virgin shotgun receiver, but I admittedly twisted that a bit to say had to come from manufacturer with pistol grip only, as didn't think you can buy virgin shotgun receivers only? Though of course you could make your own.

Mea culpa about the inaccurate previous definitive statement that individual can't do it under any circumstances.

- OS

Non-NFA firearm. 8.5" barrel and receiver can't be 26" long, so non-essential non-permanent buffer tube had to count in the OAL measurement by the ATF.

Yep, if you want to stake your future on 1/3 of of a letter from an acting director of a subdivision of the FTB to a licensed manufacturer, with no corroboration from any other part of ATF that an individual may do the same, assuming we're even interpreting the thing correctly in that limited regard.

- OS

That looks like a nice Destructive Device.

 

Oh alright, that clears that up then. Just to note, you can get stripped lowers from BA.

What's BA please?

- OS

Black Aces.

Thanks, but I just looked at every product they list at blackacestactical.com and found no receivers at all?

- OS

Look Harder.

Cool, thanks. Sped right by it or something when looking.

- OS