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Posted: 7/27/2014 9:09:18 AM EDT
What parts are necessary to make this:
Ok I'm an AR Guy who is just getting into AKs, so be gentle 
In place of the stock I'd install an arm brace but aside from that, who makes the folding mechanism and what modifications are necessary (if any) to attach it? Could I get a run of the mill semiauto AK with a 16" barrel, cut it down to what looks to be 10-12"? Also is that a threaded end cap on the barrel or a unique flash hider/muzzle brake? I know mag pull makes the pistol grip but who makes the forend rail? Any info you guys could give would be fantastic. 
ETA: would the gas system need to be modified or, no? |
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Posted: 7/27/2014 10:03:47 AM EDT
[#1]
That's a Draco.
You will need to SBR it and get a stamp if you're planning to make a short rifle like that. Ultimak rails - the top rail is a full-size rail that's been cut down, the lower rail is a draco ultimak rail. The folding mech is an ace folder. It has a muzzle brake on it. No you do not modify the gas system on the draco. Here's how a draco looks before all the fancy accessories. 
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Posted: 7/27/2014 10:10:09 AM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That's a Draco. You will need to SBR it and get a stamp if you're planning to make a short rifle like that. Ultimak rails - the top rail is a full-size rail that's been cut down, the lower rail is a draco ultimak rail. The folding mech is an ace folder. It has a muzzle brake on it. Here's how a draco looks before all the fancy accessories. http://www.everydaynodaysoff.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/Draco-Ak-Pistol.jpg I thought if I put the arm brace in place of the stock it's be considered a pistol negating the need for a tax stamp |
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Posted: 7/27/2014 10:11:58 AM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I thought if I put the arm brace in place of the stock it's be considered a pistol negating the need for a tax stamp Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
That's a Draco. You will need to SBR it and get a stamp if you're planning to make a short rifle like that. Ultimak rails - the top rail is a full-size rail that's been cut down, the lower rail is a draco ultimak rail. The folding mech is an ace folder. It has a muzzle brake on it. Here's how a draco looks before all the fancy accessories. http://www.everydaynodaysoff.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/Draco-Ak-Pistol.jpg I thought if I put the arm brace in place of the stock it's be considered a pistol negating the need for a tax stamp Yes that would. I meant if you ran a CTR stock on it like the picture above it would be an SBR. But yes, you can run a brace and not SBR it. Sorry for the confusion. |
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Posted: 7/27/2014 10:13:52 AM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yes that would. I meant if you ran a CTR stock on it like the picture above it would be an SBR. But yes, you can run a brace and not SBR it. Sorry for the confusion. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
That's a Draco. You will need to SBR it and get a stamp if you're planning to make a short rifle like that. Ultimak rails - the top rail is a full-size rail that's been cut down, the lower rail is a draco ultimak rail. The folding mech is an ace folder. It has a muzzle brake on it. Here's how a draco looks before all the fancy accessories. http://www.everydaynodaysoff.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/Draco-Ak-Pistol.jpg I thought if I put the arm brace in place of the stock it's be considered a pistol negating the need for a tax stamp Yes that would. I meant if you ran a CTR stock on it like the picture above it would be an SBR. But yes, you can run a brace and not SBR it. Sorry for the confusion. Copy that. On the upper rail who would be able to cut it down to length? Also would the ace folding mechanism just attach to existing points or is drilling required? |
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Posted: 7/27/2014 10:18:17 AM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Copy that. On the upper rail who would be able to cut it down to length? Also would the ace folding mechanism just attach to existing points or is drilling required? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
That's a Draco. You will need to SBR it and get a stamp if you're planning to make a short rifle like that. Ultimak rails - the top rail is a full-size rail that's been cut down, the lower rail is a draco ultimak rail. The folding mech is an ace folder. It has a muzzle brake on it. Here's how a draco looks before all the fancy accessories. http://www.everydaynodaysoff.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/Draco-Ak-Pistol.jpg I thought if I put the arm brace in place of the stock it's be considered a pistol negating the need for a tax stamp Yes that would. I meant if you ran a CTR stock on it like the picture above it would be an SBR. But yes, you can run a brace and not SBR it. Sorry for the confusion. Copy that. On the upper rail who would be able to cut it down to length? Also would the ace folding mechanism just attach to existing points or is drilling required? You would have to cut down the upper rail if you want it to look exactly like the Draco in the picture. Ultimak does make a Draco upper tail but it doesn't run the full length. Here's a guide to cutting it down. http://www.ar15.com/archive/topic.html?b=4&f=98&t=136012 You would have to drill and tap the holes for the ace folder too. |
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Posted: 7/27/2014 11:25:00 AM EDT
[#6]
I think Leon has pretty much covered it.
The Draco in the OP also has either a Krebs safety or a home brew version, as well as a grip adaptor. As for the Ultimak top rail, I can't remember from the original thread(s) if he used a cut down rail because he had an extra one or because the Ultimak short/Draco version wasn't out yet. Or if it was something completely different. |
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Posted: 7/27/2014 12:18:33 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I think Leon has pretty much covered it. The Draco in the OP also has either a Krebs safety or a home brew version, as well as a grip adaptor. As for the Ultimak top rail, I can't remember from the original thread(s) if he used a cut down rail because he had an extra one or because the Ultimak short/Draco version wasn't out yet. Or if it was something completely different. He cut down the rail because the Draco version doesn't run the full length. Draco Version - 
Modified full length rail - 
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Posted: 7/27/2014 1:00:51 PM EDT
[#8]
Gardner's Original thread
Best looking modernized AK that I've ever seen. Aero, you could do a similar firearm with an M92 PAP, which is more readily available as of right now, I think. Should be available for less than $450. I started with a M92 PAP. Added a magpul AK grip (you'll have to buy a M6 screw to replace the on magpul sends). Several companies make folding AR adapters. ACE, Stormwerkz, CNCWarrior/Bonesteel. Be aware M92 rear isn't 90* to top rail giving your stock a downward angle if not corrected for. Ultimak rails (gas tube and bottom) Gas tube (PAP Version) $104 Bottom (I assume you'd have to cut this one down) $220 I'm considering doing something similar, but using the Midwest Industries keymod rail and ManticoreArms triangle folder |
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Posted: 7/27/2014 1:11:15 PM EDT
[#9]
You won't find an M92 till August.
Everyone's sold out. Honestly, I wouldn't even get into the AK game for a few months. Ammo is about to become a bitch to get. But yeah, an M92 with a wedge kit looks awesome. 
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Posted: 7/27/2014 1:13:21 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You won't find an M92 till August. Everyone's sold out. Honestly, I wouldn't even get into the AK game for a few months. Ammo is about to become a bitch to get. Dealer had one at a gunshow in Conroe for $450 |
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Posted: 7/27/2014 1:14:26 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Dealer had one at a gunshow in Conroe for $450 Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
You won't find an M92 till August. Everyone's sold out. Honestly, I wouldn't even get into the AK game for a few months. Ammo is about to become a bitch to get. Dealer had one at a gunshow in Conroe for $450 That's pretty good. I've been looking for one online, can't seem to find one. I hope they'll come back in the $400 range. Probably will considering ammo might be scarce. |
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Posted: 7/27/2014 1:57:53 PM EDT
[#12]
I don't know how the Ultimak bottom rail would work on a M92. It is pretty specific in length. The way it mounts is kind of a PITA. It uses two small triangle blocks that are wedged out and lock the rail tight into the front of the receiver under the front trunion. And the other end is drilled/tapped for the pieces that clamp to it over top of the barrel so don't know if you could cut that end down either.
I ran into this issue a few weeks ago, ordered a M92 instead of a true Romy Draco. Ended up getting the Draco seeing as I already had the Ultimak parts. I recommend the ACE folder over the Stormwerkz version, for reasons mentioned in another thread in this SBR forum. Also, if you plan on doing Gardner's mod to the gas tube, it takes time and IMO isn't worth it, the extra bit of rail is so thin and only aluminum, I ended up just cutting it off similar to the Draco gas tube pictured above. |
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Posted: 7/27/2014 2:06:05 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I don't know how the Ultimak bottom rail would work on a M92. It is pretty specific in length. The way it mounts is kind of a PITA. It uses two small triangle blocks that are wedged out and lock the rail tight into the front of the receiver under the front trunion. And the other end is drilled/tapped for the pieces that clamp to it over top of the barrel so don't know if you could cut that end down either. I ran into this issue a few weeks ago, ordered a M92 instead of a true Romy Draco. Ended up getting the Draco seeing as I already had the Ultimak parts. I recommend the ACE folder over the Stormwerkz version, for reasons mentioned in another thread in this SBR forum. Also, if you plan on doing Gardner's mod to the gas tube, it takes time and IMO isn't worth it, the extra bit of rail is so thin and only aluminum, I ended up just cutting it off similar to the Draco gas tube pictured above. Bottom rail wouldn't work on the M92, and it's just too much work to be worthwhile in my opinion. |
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Posted: 7/27/2014 2:56:33 PM EDT
[#14]
Thanks for all the info guys, you've given me ore then enough to get started and I'll start stockpiling ammo here in the next few days.
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Posted: 7/27/2014 3:08:03 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I don't know how the Ultimak bottom rail would work on a M92. It is pretty specific in length. The way it mounts is kind of a PITA. It uses two small triangle blocks that are wedged out and lock the rail tight into the front of the receiver under the front trunion. And the other end is drilled/tapped for the pieces that clamp to it over top of the barrel so don't know if you could cut that end down either. I ran into this issue a few weeks ago, ordered a M92 instead of a true Romy Draco. Ended up getting the Draco seeing as I already had the Ultimak parts. I recommend the ACE folder over the Stormwerkz version, for reasons mentioned in another thread in this SBR forum. Also, if you plan on doing Gardner's mod to the gas tube, it takes time and IMO isn't worth it, the extra bit of rail is so thin and only aluminum, I ended up just cutting it off similar to the Draco gas tube pictured above. I'll bow to your expertise about the ultimak lower rail, I just know how Gardner did it. |
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Posted: 7/27/2014 3:10:04 PM EDT
[#16]
Leon, sweet M92!
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Posted: 7/27/2014 4:50:10 PM EDT
[#17]
Nice M92. One of these days…
My own Gardner inspired Draco: 
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Posted: 7/27/2014 5:07:44 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Nice M92. One of these days… My own Gardner inspired Draco: http://i1340.photobucket.com/albums/o733/CAJva1/IMG_1765_zps3c4b6eaf.jpg Really dig the one on the bottom. That m92 belongs to bill the guy who makes the wedges for the m92 |
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Posted: 7/28/2014 1:04:08 AM EDT
[#19]
Modifying the ultimak gas tube rail is a pain, but was a fun project. You can see here how thin it gets and that pretty much that part of the rail is almost useless. But, it might be good for a thorntail type light mount. Really I just did it for aesthetics.
And for reference, what one looks like with an arm brace. 
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Posted: 7/28/2014 4:17:46 AM EDT
[#20]
Quoted:
In place of the stock I'd install an arm brace but aside from that, who makes the folding mechanism and what modifications are necessary (if any) to attach it? Could I get a run of the mill semiauto AK with a 16" barrel, cut it down to what looks to be 10-12"? Also is that a threaded end cap on the barrel or a unique flash hider/muzzle brake? Please be careful and research the legal aspects of this before you start. If you start with a firearm that was originally constructed as a rifle, you cannot simply remove the stock, cut the barrel down, and call it a pistol. The way federal law is worded, a pistol must be constructed off of a virgin receiver, and what you describe would be "made from a rifle" and would qualify as a short-barreled rifle, even if its configuration is identical to a legal non-NFA pistol. 27 CFR 479.11 Pistol. A weapon originally designed, made, and intended to fire a projectile (bullet) from one or more barrels when held in one hand, and having (a) a chamber(s) as an integral part(s) of, or permanently aligned with, the bore(s); and (b) a short stock designed to be gripped by one hand and at an angle to and extending below the line of the bore(s). (in the definition below, "Firearm" means weapons that are subject to the NFA. This is a little bit confusing since there is a different definition of "firearm" in 18 USC 921, but that's the way it is written) Firearm. (a) A shotgun having a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length; (b) a weapon made from a shotgun if such weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length; (c) a rifle having a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length; (d) a weapon made from a rifle if such weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length; (e) any other weapon, as defined in this subpart; (f) a machine gun; (g) a muffler or a silencer for any firearm whether or not such firearm is included within this definition; and (h) a destructive device. |
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Posted: 7/28/2014 6:46:05 AM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Modifying the ultimak gas tube rail is a pain, but was a fun project. You can see here how thin it gets and that pretty much that part of the rail is almost useless. But, it might be good for a thorntail type light mount. Really I just did it for aesthetics. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v328/salmonaxe/Draco_02.jpg And for reference, what one looks like with an arm brace.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v328/salmonaxe/cf13bb239b4357c6dad4c54b26b116db_zps177a0cf1.jpg Nice rig, did you have to modify the lower rail any? For that matter what's the model number of the lower rail? |
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Posted: 7/28/2014 6:50:01 AM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Please be careful and research the legal aspects of this before you start. If you start with a firearm that was originally constructed as a rifle, you cannot simply remove the stock, cut the barrel down, and call it a pistol. The way federal law is worded, a pistol must be constructed off of a virgin receiver, and what you describe would be "made from a rifle" and would qualify as a short-barreled rifle, even if its configuration is identical to a legal non-NFA pistol. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
In place of the stock I'd install an arm brace but aside from that, who makes the folding mechanism and what modifications are necessary (if any) to attach it? Could I get a run of the mill semiauto AK with a 16" barrel, cut it down to what looks to be 10-12"? Also is that a threaded end cap on the barrel or a unique flash hider/muzzle brake? Please be careful and research the legal aspects of this before you start. If you start with a firearm that was originally constructed as a rifle, you cannot simply remove the stock, cut the barrel down, and call it a pistol. The way federal law is worded, a pistol must be constructed off of a virgin receiver, and what you describe would be "made from a rifle" and would qualify as a short-barreled rifle, even if its configuration is identical to a legal non-NFA pistol. 27 CFR 479.11 Pistol. A weapon originally designed, made, and intended to fire a projectile (bullet) from one or more barrels when held in one hand, and having (a) a chamber(s) as an integral part(s) of, or permanently aligned with, the bore(s); and (b) a short stock designed to be gripped by one hand and at an angle to and extending below the line of the bore(s). (in the definition below, "Firearm" means weapons that are subject to the NFA. This is a little bit confusing since there is a different definition of "firearm" in 18 USC 921, but that's the way it is written) Firearm. (a) A shotgun having a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length; (b) a weapon made from a shotgun if such weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length; (c) a rifle having a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length; (d) a weapon made from a rifle if such weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length; (e) any other weapon, as defined in this subpart; (f) a machine gun; (g) a muffler or a silencer for any firearm whether or not such firearm is included within this definition; and (h) a destructive device. Damn, learn something new every day. Thanks for the heads up and I'll make sure to start out with a pistol if possible or, a virgin receiver. ETA: On that note (just for my edification), can a pistol ever be turned into a rifle? |
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Posted: 7/28/2014 7:13:30 AM EDT
[#23]
http://i1162.photobucket.com/albums/q536/gabeowp/2012-10-11100846.jpg
dont forget the slr break |
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Posted: 7/28/2014 9:17:52 AM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Damn, learn something new every day. Thanks for the heads up and I'll make sure to start out with a pistol if possible or, a virgin receiver. ETA: On that note (just for my edification), can a pistol ever be turned into a rifle? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
In place of the stock I'd install an arm brace but aside from that, who makes the folding mechanism and what modifications are necessary (if any) to attach it? Could I get a run of the mill semiauto AK with a 16" barrel, cut it down to what looks to be 10-12"? Also is that a threaded end cap on the barrel or a unique flash hider/muzzle brake? Please be careful and research the legal aspects of this before you start. If you start with a firearm that was originally constructed as a rifle, you cannot simply remove the stock, cut the barrel down, and call it a pistol. The way federal law is worded, a pistol must be constructed off of a virgin receiver, and what you describe would be "made from a rifle" and would qualify as a short-barreled rifle, even if its configuration is identical to a legal non-NFA pistol. 27 CFR 479.11 Pistol. A weapon originally designed, made, and intended to fire a projectile (bullet) from one or more barrels when held in one hand, and having (a) a chamber(s) as an integral part(s) of, or permanently aligned with, the bore(s); and (b) a short stock designed to be gripped by one hand and at an angle to and extending below the line of the bore(s). (in the definition below, "Firearm" means weapons that are subject to the NFA. This is a little bit confusing since there is a different definition of "firearm" in 18 USC 921, but that's the way it is written) Firearm. (a) A shotgun having a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length; (b) a weapon made from a shotgun if such weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length; (c) a rifle having a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length; (d) a weapon made from a rifle if such weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length; (e) any other weapon, as defined in this subpart; (f) a machine gun; (g) a muffler or a silencer for any firearm whether or not such firearm is included within this definition; and (h) a destructive device. Damn, learn something new every day. Thanks for the heads up and I'll make sure to start out with a pistol if possible or, a virgin receiver. ETA: On that note (just for my edification), can a pistol ever be turned into a rifle? You can make a rifle from a pistol. Either by the legal process of SBRing or by adding a PERMANENT barrel extension (pin and weld) to get to 16". |
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Posted: 7/28/2014 11:13:21 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You can make a rifle from a pistol. Either by the legal process of SBRing or by adding a PERMANENT barrel extension (pin and weld) to get to 16". Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
ETA: On that note (just for my edification), can a pistol ever be turned into a rifle? You can make a rifle from a pistol. Either by the legal process of SBRing or by adding a PERMANENT barrel extension (pin and weld) to get to 16". Yes, you can convert a pistol into a rifle (and back again), but you cannot make a pistol from any receiver that was originally built into a rifle. To convert a pistol into a rifle, you must ensure that the barrel is replaced or permanently lengthened to >16" first, then install the buttstock last. |
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Posted: 7/28/2014 12:00:01 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
http://i1162.photobucket.com/albums/q536/gabeowp/2012-10-11100846.jpg dont forget the slr break That'll get your fillings dancin'
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Posted: 7/28/2014 9:29:51 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yes, you can convert a pistol into a rifle (and back again), but you cannot make a pistol from any receiver that was originally built into a rifle. To convert a pistol into a rifle, you must ensure that the barrel is replaced or permanently lengthened to >16" first, then install the buttstock last. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
ETA: On that note (just for my edification), can a pistol ever be turned into a rifle? You can make a rifle from a pistol. Either by the legal process of SBRing or by adding a PERMANENT barrel extension (pin and weld) to get to 16". Yes, you can convert a pistol into a rifle (and back again), but you cannot make a pistol from any receiver that was originally built into a rifle. To convert a pistol into a rifle, you must ensure that the barrel is replaced or permanently lengthened to >16" first, then install the buttstock last. Copy that. |
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Posted: 7/29/2014 2:51:05 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Nice rig, did you have to modify the lower rail any? For that matter what's the model number of the lower rail? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Modifying the ultimak gas tube rail is a pain, but was a fun project. You can see here how thin it gets and that pretty much that part of the rail is almost useless. But, it might be good for a thorntail type light mount. Really I just did it for aesthetics. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v328/salmonaxe/Draco_02.jpg And for reference, what one looks like with an arm brace.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v328/salmonaxe/cf13bb239b4357c6dad4c54b26b116db_zps177a0cf1.jpg Nice rig, did you have to modify the lower rail any? For that matter what's the model number of the lower rail? I know that I didn't have to modify it for the Draco-c. I can't remember the model number, but it measures at around 8.6" and I'm pretty darn sure it's made for regular stamped reciever AKs with a normal barrel profile. |
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Posted: 7/29/2014 7:15:41 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Bottom rail wouldn't work on the M92, and it's just too much work to be worthwhile in my opinion. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Bottom rail wouldn't work on the M92, and it's just too much work to be worthwhile in my opinion. I agree. That is why when I got the M92 (by my mistake, thought I ordered the right host) I sold it off and got a true 12" barrel Romy Draco. Quoted:
I'll bow to your expertise about the ultimak lower rail, I just know how Gardner did it. Yep. I copied him. Shamelessly. It's a sweet build he posted and I had to have it. All I did differently was cut the UltiMAK M1-B gas-tube flush, after I filed it down to fit over the sight base. So thin at that point it's not useful. Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Modifying the ultimak gas tube rail is a pain, but was a fun project. You can see here how thin it gets and that pretty much that part of the rail is almost useless. But, it might be good for a thorntail type light mount. Really I just did it for aesthetics. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v328/salmonaxe/Draco_02.jpg And for reference, what one looks like with an arm brace.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v328/salmonaxe/cf13bb239b4357c6dad4c54b26b116db_zps177a0cf1.jpg Nice rig, did you have to modify the lower rail any? For that matter what's the model number of the lower rail? I know that I didn't have to modify it for the Draco-c. I can't remember the model number, but it measures at around 8.6" and I'm pretty darn sure it's made for regular stamped reciever AKs with a normal barrel profile. Lower Rail for STAMPED Receivers |
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