Site Notices
4/17/2014 3:33:50 PM
ARCHIVED ARCHIVED
  Previous Page
Page:  / 2
Author
Message
Neeglik
Offline
Posts: 476
Feedback: 100% (25)
Posted: 10/31/2011 12:38:43 PM

THE IMAGE ABOVE IS A PAID ADVERTISEMENT
Has there ever been one? If not, what are the chances we will ever see one? Since there are .223 variants out there, it seems it would be possible.
MAKAK47
Offline
Posts: 1802
Feedback: 0% (0)
Link To This Post
Posted: 10/31/2011 2:25:27 PM
will not be happening. There are .223 AK pistols out there however.
reason being surplus 5.45 is steel core, and everybody is worried the ATF will slap an importation ban on one if its made
this happened to steel core 7.62x39 from China when Olympic Arms made a 7.62x39 pistol because it was interpreted as "armor piercing ammo"

I want to know where the ATF's brain is sometimes, are they just trying to make our lives hard or are they just that retarded
Copper
Offline
Posts: 1145
Feedback: 100% (183)
Link To This Post
Posted: 10/31/2011 5:04:50 PM
You mean like this one?
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=258199654
They exist, but they are pricy. I sure wish there was a 5.45x39 version of the Draco. You could buy an AK74 kit, chop the barrel, and have it built on a virgin receiver.
YodaMaadi
Offline
Posts: 89
Feedback: 100% (104)
Link To This Post
Posted: 10/31/2011 6:32:13 PM
Originally Posted By MAKAK47:
will not be happening. There are .223 AK pistols out there however.
reason being surplus 5.45 is steel core, and everybody is worried the ATF will slap an importation ban on one if its made
this happened to steel core 7.62x39 from China when Olympic Arms made a 7.62x39 pistol because it was interpreted as "armor piercing ammo"

I want to know where the ATF's brain is sometimes, are they just trying to make our lives hard or are they just that retarded


The first rule of 5.45 pistols is you don't talk about 5.45 pistols.

The second rule of 5.45 pistols is you don't talk about 5.45 pistols.
Surly
Offline
Posts: 1767
Feedback: 100% (52)
Link To This Post
Posted: 10/31/2011 8:26:59 PM
[Last Edit: 10/31/2011 8:27:28 PM by Surly]
BULLSHIT!

The 5,45 has the same penetrator core as the ss109 or whatever the hell the 5.56 round emulates. Nothing special and not considered AP by the BATFE. From their website:

"A full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of the projectile."

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/guides/importation-verification/firearms-verification-gca-ammunition.html

Last I checked,^^^ 5,45 was a little smaller than 5.56 and does NOT qualify as AP.

Another retardnet myth flushed down the shitter. Build and show off your '74 pistol.



If you want something that kicks some serious ass, ask me about my PSL pistol and the two cases of Czech silver tip I have.
YodaMaadi
Offline
Posts: 90
Feedback: 100% (104)
Link To This Post
Posted: 10/31/2011 9:38:01 PM
You selectively left out part of the statute...

(B) The term “armor piercing ammunition” means—
(i) a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium; or
(ii) a full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of the projectile.
(C) The term “armor piercing ammunition” does not include shotgun shot required by Federal or State environmental or game regulations for hunting purposes, a frangible projectile designed for target shooting, a projectile which the Attorney General finds is primarily intended to be used for sporting purposes, or any other projectile or projectile core which the Attorney General finds is intended to be used for industrial purposes, including a charge used in an oil and gas well perforating device.

As you can see (i) applies in this case and is the problem.
If the BATFE decides to go after 7n6 it will dry up fast and we will be left with only the commercial, more expensive lead core ammo.
Bringing attention to the pistols will only hasten the end of cheap, plentiful 5.45.
5.45 barrels measure around .214 which is less than .22 cal but the bullets are right at .221 to .224 so they are large enough to be AP ammo.
Copper
Offline
Posts: 1146
Feedback: 100% (183)
Link To This Post
Posted: 10/31/2011 10:07:50 PM
If you think the BATF doesn't know there are a buttload of 5.45 pistols out there already, you're kidding yourself. I've been hearing the same arguments about ammo importation being stopped for at least ten years and it hasn't happened yet. I'm not saying your logic or your interpretation of existing law is wrong, but if they want to do it at this point, they're going to do it. If you want a 5.45 pistol, then buy or build one and stock up on ammo now.
MAKAK47
Offline
Posts: 1804
Feedback: 0% (0)
Link To This Post
Posted: 10/31/2011 10:10:35 PM
hey people have a legitimate right to be freaked out based on prior ATF experiences, it would be nice to have 5.45 pistols out there though, easy way to convert to krinkov sbr
Ivan1
Offline
Posts: 118
Feedback: 100% (17)
Link To This Post
Posted: 10/31/2011 11:02:11 PM
I thought 86 and up year 7n6 is steel core and everything before that is mild-steel? I read that its hard to get the newer 86 and up 7n6 ammo since its rare.
AJ_Dual
Member
Offline
Posts: 7676
Feedback: 0% (0)
Link To This Post
Posted: 11/1/2011 10:09:44 AM
[Last Edit: 11/1/2011 10:11:23 AM by AJ_Dual]
I think the concerns about N76 getting banned as "handgun ammo" are legit.

However, I think there's been several administration's worth of priorities/culture changes since that time. Sort of like how the Streetsweeper and USAS-12 got declared NFA Destructive Devices, but the Saiga 12ga, which can take 20 or 30 round drum magazines has been effectively ignored for 10 or so years.

The ATF has other priorities, like sending guns to Mexico these days it seems.

I think 5.45 AK pistols will be okay as long as no major gun retailers pick them up, and they remain a boutique item by the smaller AK builders, or as home builds. Should Century or someone else start importing them by the boatload like the 7.62 Dracos, then I'd think future problems with the N76 supply are going to be much more likely.

Originally Posted By Ivan1:
I thought 86 and up year 7n6 is steel core and everything before that is mild-steel? I read that its hard to get the newer 86 and up 7n6 ammo since its rare.


I would suspect it's simply because Bulgaria or other former E. Block countries are always more likely to surplus their older ammo out first.
Omnis vestri substructio es servus ad Chuck Norris.
Ivan1
Offline
Posts: 119
Feedback: 100% (17)
Link To This Post
Posted: 11/1/2011 2:57:07 PM
So we may see the 86 and up 7n6?
Surly
Offline
Posts: 1772
Feedback: 100% (52)
Link To This Post
Posted: 11/1/2011 8:09:30 PM
Originally Posted By YodaMaadi:
You selectively left out part of the statute...

(B) The term “armor piercing ammunition” means—
(i) a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium; or
(ii) a full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of the projectile.
(C) The term “armor piercing ammunition” does not include shotgun shot required by Federal or State environmental or game regulations for hunting purposes, a frangible projectile designed for target shooting, a projectile which the Attorney General finds is primarily intended to be used for sporting purposes, or any other projectile or projectile core which the Attorney General finds is intended to be used for industrial purposes, including a charge used in an oil and gas well perforating device.

As you can see (i) applies in this case and is the problem.
If the BATFE decides to go after 7n6 it will dry up fast and we will be left with only the commercial, more expensive lead core ammo.
Bringing attention to the pistols will only hasten the end of cheap, plentiful 5.45.
5.45 barrels measure around .214 which is less than .22 cal but the bullets are right at .221 to .224 so they are large enough to be AP ammo.


So why were all of the 5.56 Dracos imported? 5.56 is larger than 5,45 and AP ammo is available.

If I had the financial backing, I would market and sell a 5,45 pistol just to shut this shit up.

MJL
Member
Offline
Posts: 424
Feedback: 100% (1)
Link To This Post
Posted: 11/2/2011 8:18:33 PM
[Last Edit: 11/2/2011 8:28:36 PM by MJL]
Originally Posted By Surly:

So why were all of the 5.56 Dracos imported? 5.56 is larger than 5,45 and AP ammo is available.

If I had the financial backing, I would market and sell a 5,45 pistol just to shut this shit up.



I believe the issue is with the import of AP ammo that can be used in handguns, not with the import of the handguns themselves. Since the majority of 5.45 ammo is imported steel core people are worried that the import of that ammo would be outlawed and the only option left would be commercial ammo that is either produced in the US (and therefore more expensive) or commercially made imports without a steel core that would undoubtedly be more expensive than the foreign military surplus stuff you can buy now.

I don't know of any imported 5.56 AP ammo, but maybe I'm wrong. I've never really looked for it but I can only remember ever seeing US made Lake City US Mil-surp stuff. I know you can no longer buy imported steel core 7.62x39 ammo and that is a direct result of the production of 7.62x39 pistols.
Surly
Offline
Posts: 1773
Feedback: 100% (52)
Link To This Post
Posted: 11/3/2011 7:57:47 AM
Originally Posted By MJL:
Originally Posted By Surly:

So why were all of the 5.56 Dracos imported? 5.56 is larger than 5,45 and AP ammo is available.

If I had the financial backing, I would market and sell a 5,45 pistol just to shut this shit up.



I believe the issue is with the import of AP ammo that can be used in handguns, not with the import of the handguns themselves. Since the majority of 5.45 ammo is imported steel core people are worried that the import of that ammo would be outlawed and the only option left would be commercial ammo that is either produced in the US (and therefore more expensive) or commercially made imports without a steel core that would undoubtedly be more expensive than the foreign military surplus stuff you can buy now.

I don't know of any imported 5.56 AP ammo, but maybe I'm wrong. I've never really looked for it but I can only remember ever seeing US made Lake City US Mil-surp stuff. I know you can no longer buy imported steel core 7.62x39 ammo and that is a direct result of the production of 7.62x39 pistols.


And now we go back to square one...5,45 is NOT AP ammo. 7,62 is LARGER than .22 making it AP ammo. Apples and oranges.

MJL
Member
Offline
Posts: 425
Feedback: 100% (1)
Link To This Post
Posted: 11/3/2011 8:26:07 PM
Originally Posted By Surly:
And now we go back to square one...5,45 is NOT AP ammo. 7,62 is LARGER than .22 making it AP ammo. Apples and oranges.


The .22 cal part of that law only seems to apply in cases where the jacket of the projectile weighs more than 25% of the total weight of the projectile. Not in cases where the core is steel. Part i applies to 5.45 imported surplus ammo. part ii is not relevant to this discussion.

(B) The term “armor piercing ammunition” means—
(i) a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium; or
(ii) a full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of the projectile.
(C) The term “armor piercing ammunition” does not include shotgun shot required by Federal or State environmental or game regulations for hunting purposes, a frangible projectile designed for target shooting, a projectile which the Attorney General finds is primarily intended to be used for sporting purposes, or any other projectile or projectile core which the Attorney General finds is intended to be used for industrial purposes, including a charge used in an oil and gas well perforating device.
Surly
Offline
Posts: 1775
Feedback: 100% (52)
Link To This Post
Posted: 11/4/2011 7:44:37 AM
Originally Posted By MJL:
Originally Posted By Surly:
And now we go back to square one...5,45 is NOT AP ammo. 7,62 is LARGER than .22 making it AP ammo. Apples and oranges.


The .22 cal part of that law only seems to apply in cases where the jacket of the projectile weighs more than 25% of the total weight of the projectile. Not in cases where the core is steel. Part i applies to 5.45 imported surplus ammo. part ii is not relevant to this discussion.

(B) The term “armor piercing ammunition” means—
(i) a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium; or
(ii) a full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of the projectile.
(C) The term “armor piercing ammunition” does not include shotgun shot required by Federal or State environmental or game regulations for hunting purposes, a frangible projectile designed for target shooting, a projectile which the Attorney General finds is primarily intended to be used for sporting purposes, or any other projectile or projectile core which the Attorney General finds is intended to be used for industrial purposes, including a charge used in an oil and gas well perforating device.


The core is not entirely steel and will not weigh more than the jacket. It has a penetrator tip like the 5.56 and a hollow cavity ahead of it. It's intended to destabilize the bullet when it strikes tissue and not be armor piercing. Where do you think the idea for the 5.56 came from? The brass solids I use in my .416 are AP, these are not.

sparky923
Offline
Posts: 2617
Feedback: 0% (0)
Link To This Post
Posted: 11/4/2011 11:00:26 PM
So has anybody else seen the centerfire brochure advertising a 5.45 Draco?
MJL
Member
Offline
Posts: 426
Feedback: 100% (1)
Link To This Post
Posted: 11/5/2011 3:07:55 AM
[Last Edit: 11/5/2011 3:13:41 AM by MJL]
Originally Posted By Surly:

The core is not entirely steel and will not weigh more than the jacket. It has a penetrator tip like the 5.56 and a hollow cavity ahead of it. It's intended to destabilize the bullet when it strikes tissue and not be armor piercing. Where do you think the idea for the 5.56 came from? The brass solids I use in my .416 are AP, these are not.



I think you just swayed me to your side. I've never investigated the make-up of a 5.45 bullet before. After reading your posts I looked it up and all of the various types of steel core 5.45 ammo have at least some lead in them (I'm not sure about 7n24, but I've never heard of it in the US.). The common 7n6 ammo has a lead plug in it and then a steel core. Since the law we are discussing requires that the projectile core be made entirely of the listed alloys, and lead is not listed, then I think you are right.

Of course, the ATF does what the ATF wants to do when it comes to this stuff, and import law is an easy thing to mess with if they decide to go after it.
Surly
Offline
Posts: 1789
Feedback: 100% (52)
Link To This Post
Posted: 11/5/2011 11:40:21 AM
Originally Posted By MJL:
I think you just swayed me to your side. I've never investigated the make-up of a 5.45 bullet before. After reading your posts I looked it up and all of the various types of steel core 5.45 ammo have at least some lead in them (I'm not sure about 7n24, but I've never heard of it in the US.). The common 7n6 ammo has a lead plug in it and then a steel core. Since the law we are discussing requires that the projectile core be made entirely of the listed alloys, and lead is not listed, then I think you are right.

Of course, the ATF does what the ATF wants to do when it comes to this stuff, and import law is an easy thing to mess with if they decide to go after it.


I wouldn't worry about them. I'd be more concerned with it disappearing when the middle east gets set on fire and the ruskies decide to side with an adversary. Buy it cheap, stack it deep.

Krink
Offline
Posts: 2798
Feedback: 100% (4)
Link To This Post
Posted: 11/20/2011 1:33:18 PM
facts figures and logic have nothing to do with it,the cheap 7.62 steel core wasnt AP either.
build your own or have your parts assembled but I wouldnt wish for a lg manufacturer to dump a bunch of these on the market
Corbic
Offline
Posts: 826
Feedback: 100% (2)
Link To This Post
Posted: 11/21/2011 9:21:49 PM
Why play with fire - seriously. No good will come from a 5.45 pistol.
Surly
Offline
Posts: 1842
Feedback: 100% (52)
Link To This Post
Posted: 11/25/2011 2:30:17 PM
I HOPE AND PRAY that a 5.45 AK pistol comes to market.

You two geniuses need to go back to the beginning and actually read the thread again.
Surly
Offline
Posts: 1843
Feedback: 100% (52)
Link To This Post
Posted: 11/25/2011 2:33:21 PM
[Last Edit: 11/26/2011 8:10:03 PM by Surly]
Originally Posted By Krink:
facts figures and logic have nothing to do with it,the cheap 7.62 steel core wasnt AP either.
build your own or have your parts assembled but I wouldnt wish for a lg manufacturer to dump a bunch of these on the market


Per their definition it was, as is all of the other .30 cal ammo in existence.

I wish I could get a manufacturer to market my PSL pistol and a 5,45 pistol just to prove this bullshit 5,45 AP theory wrong.
Old18C
NRAMilitary
Offline
Posts: 264
Feedback: 0% (0)
Link To This Post
Posted: 12/2/2011 10:59:15 PM
[Last Edit: 12/2/2011 11:01:29 PM by Old18C]
Originally Posted By Surly:
BULLSHIT!

The 5,45 has the same penetrator core as the ss109 or whatever the hell the 5.56 round emulates. Nothing special and not considered AP by the BATFE. From their website:

"A full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of the projectile."

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/guides/importation-verification/firearms-verification-gca-ammunition.html

Last I checked,^^^ 5,45 was a little smaller than 5.56 and does NOT qualify as AP.

Another retardnet myth flushed down the shitter. Build and show off your '74 pistol.



If you want something that kicks some serious ass, ask me about my PSL pistol and the two cases of Czech silver tip I have.







During my 29 years and a few months in the Army I don't remember any 5.56 x 45 ammo with this much steel in them.
Surly
Offline
Posts: 1867
Feedback: 100% (52)
Link To This Post
Posted: 12/3/2011 12:08:17 AM
Holy shit...you are still dragging this shit up? These are not greater than a freaking .22 caliber!! What part of that don't you schmucks understand? Not greater than .22 does NOT EQATE TO AP.
akaf47
Offline
Posts: 299
Feedback: 100% (26)
Link To This Post
Posted: 12/3/2011 12:56:44 AM
[Last Edit: 12/3/2011 1:19:41 AM by akaf47]
Can we please just let this thread die already? I wish the moderators would ban the "5.45 pistol" discussions like on some of the other forums.

I'm sorry Surly, but you really have no idea what your talking about.....you keep ranting on and on about how the fact that the bullet is under .22 in caliber makes it somehow exempt, have you really read the statute?
I can't believe that you can't grasp it's meaning? It simply states that any bullet larger than .22 caliber DOES NOT EVEN NEED A STEEL CORE, it just needs to have a jacket weighing more than 25% of the bullets total weight. ANY peojectile with a steel core can and probably will be considered AP by the ATF, irregaurdless of caliber. Even a .17 Hornet could be considered AP if it had a steel core. NO WHERE in the statute does it state that a bullet needs to be larger than .22 to be considered AP.

Please people, let this go away!
  Previous Page
Page:  / 2
ARCHIVED ARCHIVED