My mak-90 is many, many times better than my sar-2 although the romy has never jammed or any thing it's just cheaper quality and looks like a dogs ass.

Yea, some of those later maadi's looked kinda ragedy.

Originally Posted By Dorsai: I have to wonder about all of you ranking the Maadi over the Romanian.  Maybe we're lumping a lot of different models together here.  If you are talking about the Maadi that was imported by Steyr before the ban, than I will agree with you, it was pretty good.  If you are talking about the Maadi MISR, that started coming in at the same time or slightly before the SAR, give me a break.  Every one I saw had canted sights and a finish that was worse than the SAR.  The laquer on the wood was applied after the buttplates and sling swivels were installed as they were lacquered too!  Some Romanians have trigger slap.  Mine never have.   In my experience, I would have to say they rate higher than they are being given credit for. With regards to many of the others, unless you are buying an Arsenal with a Bulgarian receiver, your "Bulgarian" rifle is really Bulgarian parts assembled on an American receiver.  The parts may be good, but the finished product is only as good as the receiver and the smith.  If you use crappy century trigger parts you may end up with trigger slap, just like a Romanian.  If you do a beadblast and blue on the receiver, you'll get a non-durable finish....like the Romanian.  Same deal for any Polish, Hungarian, Yugo, E. German, Russian, etc. kits that you get today. Factory Russian imports that are converted by a quality smith are excellent rifles.  Anthing that is pre-ban is almost universally good, but here you are talking mostly Chinese, some Yugo, some Hungarian and a few Egyptian Maadis.  One thing to think about however, is that while a Chineses may be well made, durable and functionally perfect, you will be limited to chinese parts for the most part.  Many of the European surplus parts, or parts made to fit European patterned rifles will not fit on the Chinese AKs without modification. This borders on snobbery, but if you get to understand and appreciate the details, the Chinese mix of AK47 and AKM design features begins to look a little odd, look being the operative word.  Its only important if its important to you. Bottom line, money makes a difference.  You aren't going to go order an Aresenal SLR 105 and expect to pay the same money you would for a SAR or WASR-10.  If you buy a cheap rifle with the intent of gradually upgrading, expect the final cost to meet or exceed that of the "expensive" rifle by the time you are finally done. A cheap gun is only cheap if you are happy with it as it is.

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c343/mic68/KTR-03V.jpg

Vepr's all the way, for current prod guns

Originally Posted By KMFDM: The Poles I talked to in A-stan carried M4s (Canadian mfr. I believe)-they told me the M4 was more reliable than their Tantals not the other AKs mind you-they told me just the Tantal. The Lituanian  soldiers used the G-36 because the said it worked more reliably than the *&^%&() Polish stuff they were issued-I deleted the expletives that were used. That is not good reviews for an AK IMHO.

So a Polish kit wouldn't be a good option for a build?  Would Hungarian be much better?  

Well, whatever works for you would be my opinion. Maybe the polish parts are good and their own recievers suck? I like Hungarian parts very well but it all depends on what you want in the end. Romanians aren't bad just alot of machining marks still on them and rough looking but still very functional. Or you can mix and match like I do I like certain parts from certain mfrs so I get all I want and put together what I want. Good luck to you.

Originally Posted By MST2: Have any of you guys seen a Robinson Armament Vepr??? I just recently purchased one and all I can say is WOW! I have seen just about every kind of AK and the Vepr is the best quality IMO.

Can't argue with you about that.  I'm just into "classic" AKs.  However, I'm looking really hard at the VEPR as my next purchase, in 7.62x39.

the new wasrs from century are better now i think. They are now using receivers made in the 70s n 80s and have few qc issues. My receiver was made in 1970 i think and hasnt jammed yet, and outshot a vepr and a few others. it is worth saying that my wasr has a red dot on it and the vepr didnt, but for the price i fuckin love my gun.

So where does somebnody get their hands on one of the old USSR ones?

Anyone care to comment on SAIGA's

They sell Romanian WASR AK's for $399 and they sell SAIGA AK's for $299 at the shop around the corner.

How reliable and accurate are SAIGA's Versus a WASR?

I'm wanting to build a versatile tactical rifle possibly with Red Dot, Flash Hider, and fold up stock.

I may go the road of a 5.45 x 39 but how much more accurate is that and is it more accurate than an AR type rifle?

RUSSIAN - Enough Said

Siaga .223

The Saiga's don't have pistol grips?  Does anyone make a kit to install a pistol grip and folding stock on one?

After finding this out I think I'm leaning toward a VEPR.  Unless there is an easy and cheap way to convert the Stock to a pistol grip and folder?

What about Vectors? Where do they go in the order of best to worst?

Chinese  / Communists Made :

Polytec or Norinco (Hefter/Thicker - Receivers & Barrels)

These are the only real Russian Contract made AK47s!!

Best of both worlds

Military Made for Military use (1000s of rounds firec) + Collectiblity.

Everthing Else is just for Target Practice!!!

In Other Words, My Norincos are Kick Ass!!

My first rifle ever!

I ran into a Norinco MAK-90 Milled at a local store for $349.99 plus Tax.
Chromed Barrel too.
Everyone one the forums told me to buy it or they'll slap me so I did.

Boma,

You did Good! Now snatch the Manchurian-wood thumb-Hole butt stock off or leave it on.  Keep your old stock in a large plastic sandwiche bag.  Put whatever appeals/looks good to ya!

Functional!

Nobody has answered the Vector question?  I have one, but I haven't fired it yet.  I don't have any personal experience with other AK's.  I compared the trigger squeeze on the Vector vs Romanian.  The Vector was better.  That's all I can say until I run some rounds through mine.  Waiting on the front sight tools to come in the mail as well as a case of Wolf.

I was wanting to find out about the Vector too. I posted in here a few months back about mine, but as I said I don't know all that much about AK's. I used to have a Madii, It was a piece of crap, now I have a Vector. It's pretty nice, but I sent the first one back because the front sight couldn't be zero'd. I got the second one, and it had the same problem. The second time I sent one in, they didn't give me a new gun, the spot welded the front sight to the barrel. It seems fine now, but because of all that I am a little disapointed with Vectors customer service. You would think after I sent the first one in, the would make sure the one they sent me was the best they had.

So the front sight post was sloppy?

Originally Posted By Boma: My first rifle ever! I ran into a Norinco MAK-90 Milled at a local store for $349.99 plus Tax. Chromed Barrel too. Everyone one the forums told me to buy it or they'll slap me so I did. pic1.picturetrail.com/VOL1173/4093466/8523361/131636709.jpg

Great deal, congrats. The milled Mak 90s are built like a tank and have one of the sweetest triggers you'll find on any AK.

Originally Posted By CopeLC: So the front sight post was sloppy?

No, it was too far off to the left to zero the sights. The pushed it over, and spot wlded the bottom.

Originally Posted By repub18: a WASR is by far the best

I Agree... Mine are indestructible.

Originally Posted By AKGATMAN: Originally Posted By repub18: a WASR is by far the best I Agree... Mine are indestructible.

I purchased a Vector under-folder a week ago and have run about 200 rounds through it.  No issues yet.  This is my first AK so I can't compare to anything else.  The trigger is excellent.  Very smooth and light pull.  No rattles or shakes anywhere.  Mine is stamped 1985.  I'm very happy with it.

I only have a 25yd indoor range nearby to shoot at but I did get it down to 5 rounds in 1.5".  3 were basically in the same hole.  I know that's probably not that great but this early in the game I'm pretty satisfied.  I've run Wolf FMJ and HP through it so far.  One thing I noticed is that with the HP it was harder to pull back the bolt and get that first round stripped off.  I was using 30 round magazines and they were full.

Originally Posted By Snaps: So where does somebnody get their hands on one of the old USSR ones?

You can get parts, but not guns.  Authentic Soviet parts can be hard to come by.  Personally, if I wanted something as close to a Soviet as I could get, I would get Soviet furniture and put it on a Bulgarian (Arsenal).  

Bulgarian AK's and accessories are pretty close to Soviets/Russians in terms of finishing and quality.  Soviet metal finishes can vary from flat black to dark/medium gray that looks like parkerizing, IMO.  I actually compared a Soviet Type III milled kit I had once to a Winchester M1 Garand bolt and the finishes were almost identical.  They were so close that it's almost impossible to distinguish them.  

Bulgarian parts are very similar to Soviet/Russian parts, with the primary differences being the factory codes and the exact stamping of the markings (IIRC, the Bulgarians use slightly different stamping dies).  

I have a modern Bulgarian bayonet that would be intended for use with a 5.45 AKM (proper designation for an AK74M) and it is virtually identical to the Russian/Soviet version except for factory codes.  The Warsaw Pact, it seems, was much more serious about standardization than NATO ever was.  

Originally Posted By Muskrat: Originally Posted By KMFDM: The Poles I talked to in A-stan carried M4s (Canadian mfr. I believe)-they told me the M4 was more reliable than their Tantals not the other AKs mind you-they told me just the Tantal. The Lituanian  soldiers used the G-36 because the said it worked more reliably than the *&^%&() Polish stuff they were issued-I deleted the expletives that were used. That is not good reviews for an AK IMHO. So a Polish kit wouldn't be a good option for a build?  Would Hungarian be much better?

Polish 7.62x39 guns are the best kits out there IMO. I got four. Hungarian is on par.

I'll list the kit problems I've seen with my sample size to the right

Romanian: 4 canted FSBs and GB's, 1 chunk of carrier missing (6)
Polish: No problems (4)
Bulgarian 5.45: 1 canted FSB (3)
Russian: 1 saiga .223 bore not concentric, which still irritates me (4)
Yugo: No problems  (2)
Hungarian: No prob (1)

To me, the romanian GP WASR-10 was the only way to go, and I will tell you why.

The recievers being used are now the 70's to mid 80's recievers with few, if any, problems. (mine is straight cut, stamped, single tang) And reportedly, matching same era un issued romanian parts- Mine does have matching numbers nad unused parts, I have handled AK's that were well used and, internally all romanian parts appear unused and the numbers do match. My ONLY regret is using the stamped reciever as opposed to milled.

I hand selected the gun with the smoothest action and straight trunion, FSB, GB...and no side to side play in the magazine to reciever fit, out of over 30 rifles

Threaded barrel, chromed lined, working detent.

On test firing, prior to tearing it down, we both had fun w/ 12 ounce cans at 50 yds. no malfs., no misses, Out of the box w/o sight adjustment.

$300.00

In one week my son and I have removed all machine marks from the bolt, bolt carrier, and FCG.
We have highly polised the BC and FCG.
We have refinished the furniture, came out beautiful.
we have ground off the weld holding on the barrel nut to reveal th 14mm threads.
we have even done some grinding to the rear of the mag well on the reciever.
we have "perma blued all metal work on non moving parts in flat black, discussing refinishing options for the rifle now...

I now have a hand fitted, very good quality AK. I have yet to se a rifle of this quality out of the box (AK) at a shop or gunshow in ten years for under $1000.00  I would have loved to have built it on a milled reciever, but for the money...

Now in my case I can do my own work, if you cannot it may be worth it to pay extra for a VEPR or Arsenal or whatever.

I could buy three russian AK's overseas for $5.00 each so I refuse to pay over $300.00 here for one.

I much prefer the HK G3 or even the M-4 for most jobs. The AK is great for horrendous terrain and weather when you will be operational for an extended period w/o cleaning supplies, spare parts or an armorer. For short tactical operations it is an inferior rifle, sorry just MHO from experience. So I refuse to pay more for the same basic tool. That being said the AK has one of the most beautiful sounds, profile, etc. of any rifle in the world. I may $$$ for a Krinkov one day, but not for a standard AK pattern rifle at this time.

We could buy Norinco's for $150.00 each back in the 80's, they just are no longer worth the asking price. I always preferred the eastern european models to the chicomm's anyway, one basic reason being parts commonality and availability. I have paid $$$ for HK91's & 93's. I build very nice M-4's and pay dearly for the parts, but paying for nothing more than a coolness factor is not something I can afford to do, yet. This rifle has been a father/son project with me teaching my 12 YOA son and him doing most of the work. Reassembly should be on Thursday evening and it has been worth every penny for the experience-esp. at $300.0 + cost of woodstain!

If you can get a newer GP WASR for a decent price, they are not a bad deal. Provided you are allowed to tear them down and get "pick of the litter". Some of the rifles I went through were not nearly as clean as this one, I did see cant and pitting on some rifles, but not as many as I expected...I have seen at least that many problems at recent gun shows on some of the highly rated models mentioned in this thread. I know Romi's used to be considered crap, but lately they are turning around.

Originally Posted By CARJACKED: I have yet to se a rifle of this quality out of the box (AK) at a shop or gunshow in ten years for under $1000.00   You must have the best WASR in the entire country. I could buy three russian AK's overseas for $5.00 each so I refuse to pay over $300.00 here for one. It is rediculous to use overseas blackmarket surplus prices to determine what you are willing to pay here. Rediculous. For short tactical operations it is an inferior rifle, sorry just MHO from experience. So I refuse to pay more for the same basic tool. Don't limit yourself to standard configurations. I doubt you do that with your ARs. We could buy Norinco's for $150.00 each, they just are no longer worth the asking price. Even at $350 - $400, MAK90s are still one of the best AKs available for the money. Far better IMO than any WASR.

Originally Posted By BiggerStick47: Originally Posted By CARJACKED: I have yet to se a rifle of this quality out of the box (AK) at a shop or gunshow in ten years for under $1000.00   You must have the best WASR in the entire country. As I said, my son and I have spend many hours hand fitting every part. It is now SMOOTHER than any out of the box AK I have handled, Poly, Norinco, etc. I could buy three russian AK's overseas for $5.00 each so I refuse to pay over $300.00 here for one. It is rediculous to use overseas blackmarket surplus prices to determine what you are willing to pay here. Rediculous. Really it isn't. My experience with AK has been with overseas select fire models of higher quality than the ones we are expected to pay "REDICULOUS" money for. Just look at weapon prices since the '89 bill...gun control sucks and is useless, if you don't believe me keep voting democrat (sorry J/K). I have seen stockpiles of such weapons destroyed while U.S. citizens here are overcharged for the parts that didn't make the cut mounted to recievers with no quality control. For short tactical operations it is an inferior rifle, sorry just MHO from experience. So I refuse to pay more for the same basic tool. Don't limit yourself to standard configurations. I doubt you do that with your ARs. I used what was issued, Military was M-4 supressed. LEO was M-4. Both w/ EOTech, RHG/VFG, etc.  Most times I had little control in my choosing when it came to issued weapons, either way. I will say I do not like the AR 9mm SMG's, I vastly prefer MP-5's and never had the pleasure of an MP-10, but still dream of one. We could buy Norinco's for $150.00 each, they just are no longer worth the asking price. Even at $350 - $400, MAK90s are still one of the best AKs available for the money. Far better IMO than any WASR.

I resect your opinion in this one! As I said, I have little experience w/ domestic AK's. They very well may be a better deal. Esp. out of the box. The purpose of my post was to say that not all WASR's are bad if you can pick through them, esp. for the money. If there was a MAK there to compare I very well may have gone w/ it. I just worked the best deal I could for my son's first project gun. I got time...I am disabled Mil/LEO in line of duty, so spending $300.00 to teach him so much about working on weapons was priceless. He has long been a user, but I would hesitate handing him a grinder and a $600-1K AK...
I have a AR lower that is a few weeks overdue for my next build. My son keeps talking about AK-47's...sounded like a good, cheap project to me.

CARJACKED I applaud your efforts with your son. Very admirable.

Arsenal

Originally Posted By pLante47: Arsenal

WHY?

Originally Posted By BiggerStick47: <center><table width=85% border=0><tr><td width=100% class=textQuote><hr height=1px color=black noshade>Originally Posted By pLante47: Arsenal<hr height=1px color=black noshade> WHY?

AK's commonly have average fit and marginal finish. It is almost common to see them loose, with a serious trigger-slap, and general construction on par with Daisey.

But ARSENAL guns buck all of that.

> They have great lines.
> Dependable trigger
> Many have milled receivers, and stamped models are quality stamped receivers
> Durable and noteworthy finish
> They are true to original designs and are made using same legendary methods of    
   the Bulgarian ARSENAL- yet are largely Made in the USA
> (The carbine and SA M7) have chrome lined barrel (not sure of other models)
> Furniture is uniform and durable (polymer)
> Wood furniture versions are best off the rack models of current manufacture
> They have a good replacement parts option (KVar)
> They are reasonably priced
> One of the best re-sale values of any current issue AK

The finest AK I've ever seen or owned: Polytech Legend. Wood, bluing, fit/finish, accuracy, reliability. It had it all. I sure wish I had it back


                                                                                             
Somewhere around here I have a pic of the rifle w/box and all the accessories that came with it. Can't seem to be able to find it...
What's a good, clean Legend going for these days?

Ignorance is bliss.

I just bought a Romanian WASR-10 made in 1981 and it was tight fitting, nice to fire (no slap) and looked cool.

I've never fired anyother AK type. So I don't know any better. I'm an AR guy and just wanted an AK for alternate fun and I probably overpaid for it -- $350. But it looks nice and shoots good, none of the horror stories I've read in this post about Romanian types.

So, what's so bad about the WASR that I'm not understanding or should beware of?

BTW, the bolt doesn't hold back real tight like an AR but then a guy with a Polytech AK showed me that his did the same, "that's just an AK."

same for me ben.

I live in NY where everything is over-priced.
Cheapest WASR I could find was $375
But I swollowed the fee and can easily take cans at 25-50 yards.

Shoots pretty straigt, not competition "1 in diameter" by any means, but certainly accurate enough for a fun plinker!

Originally Posted By RABID: By quality do you guys mean fit and finish? Sheesh, my romies are as tough as my friends polytechs, maadis, etc, who gives a darn about finish, it's not a custom elephant rifle As long as it oges BANG every time, cosmetics are a mute point that can be fixed later if desired. _________________________________________________ Dirty deeds....done dirt cheap

I actually wanted to test the reliability of my Romanian, because when I bought it I had to de-burr the reciever, so I was very concerned about the reliability of the weapon. I put 500 rounds of dirty-ass Wolf 7.62x39 over a course of 2 weekends without cleaning it at all and it still went BANG! every time. That reminds me, should probably clean it now heehee...

So I took the test a bit further and put some mud (basically submerged it with a barrel condom on so nothing got in there and would blow myself up and let it sit for a few hours) and let it sink in all over. A muddy slosh was spraying from the receiver everywhere the first few shots, slosh ran out the top of the trigger and the whole inside was a mess... and still, it went BANG!! every time.

My 2 cents says that no matter what maker of AK you go with you are pretty much guaranteed a gun that will continue to fire no matter what. I have 3 AR-15's and I would never try that with those weapons!! I don't care WHO the maker of the weapon is, it's still an AK47 and they're dogs. My only bitch about my Romanian is that the mag wobbles left and right because those dimples found on the "better" makes aren't there to secure the mag.

Originally Posted By MasterChief-M4: \My 2 cents says that no matter what maker of AK you go with you are pretty much guaranteed a gun that will continue to fire no matter what. I have 3 AR-15's and I would never try that with those weapons!! I don't care WHO the maker of the weapon is, it's still an AK47 and they're dogs. My only bitch about my Romanian is that the mag wobbles left and right because those dimples found on the "better" makes aren't there to secure the mag.

Anyone know of a quick fix or can someone point me to a link to fix the side to side mag wobble on the Romy AK's without the dimples that keeps them from wobbling ?

I didn't find anything with the search feature.....Thanks

WASR are sanford and son  junkers, anyone thinking otherwise is smoking crack.

Romanians are bottom of the garbage heap.


YUGOs make better AKs than Russian or Norinco.....


bulgies mght be a tidbit better than the YUGOS.

I have a Maadi that is pretty well put together.

The wood over the gas tube is beautiful but everything else looks like shit.

And the trigger slap is terrible.

But a G2 trigger, K-var furniture and flash suppressor will fix all that.

OK guys, I just bought a Romy WASR-10, it seems like everyone is hating on them????   I am not into AK's, so whats the deal?

Just got my first milled ak its an odd duck Chinese from 93'..still has slant brake threads (lh) and a chi-com bayonet that snaps right on.

I have owned and shot ALOT of guns includeing a yugo underfolder,Hungarian,and a real RPK.This milled gun has the best trigger pull of any unmodified military style rifle i have ever touched.

Also never any issue.Someone told me there is something about the Chi-com 93' milled
AK's.Any real AK guys help me out and shed some light on what they are talking about?

Thanks
Bob

[email protected]

Polytech Legend.  Milled receiver, nice wood and I have two of them.  I've owned Arsenals and MAK and Global trades.  The Legend is everything an AK was ment to be.  Next in line would be the Arsenal Inc Milled ones.

height=8

Originally Posted By GentleBen: Ignorance is bliss. I just bought a Romanian WASR-10 made in 1981 and it was tight fitting, nice to fire (no slap) and looked cool. I've never fired anyother AK type. So I don't know any better. I'm an AR guy and just wanted an AK for alternate fun and I probably overpaid for it -- $350. But it looks nice and shoots good, none of the horror stories I've read in this post about Romanian types. So, what's so bad about the WASR that I'm not understanding or should beware of? BTW, the bolt doesn't hold back real tight like an AR but then a guy with a Polytech AK showed me that his did the same, "that's just an AK." Gentleben the AK bolts dont hold open ...it's the mag that holds the bolt back....if Im not mistaken it's the yugo mags that hold the bolt open

I have had two romies this last year, first was a century w/ the wood forward handle--very badly canted front sight base but worked well. Magazines (plastic) did not work well.

Second was a WASR from AIM in 5.45 that would only feed one round (manually), then jam.  Really beat up the ammo.  I returned it and am waiting on a replacement.

Never had a problem with my mak 90 I bought in 1992 for $200 NEW, but it was a lot heavier than the romies.

I forgot--I also bought a J/G sales hungarian AMD 65.  It has great fit and finish, an awesome trigger (better than my XCR or DSA FAL), and is the most accurate AK I have owned.  The stock is a little uncomfortable.  My faveorite.

I read an interview with Mr AK himself, Mikhail Kalashnikov, he said in his opinion the Bulgarians build the best AKs.

2 Rommie SAR1, a 1999 and a 2002.  Neither of them have failed.  Albeit, I've had the 2002 for longer.  The 2002 had somewhere around 1500-2000 rounds of various types of 7.62x39 before I bought it.  Since I purchased it, it has gone through hell.  

The fine red talcum powder like dirt at the spring Hun Farms, where it is either hot and humid, or rainy all day, no problem.  

That same dust in the fall Hun Farms, where it gets hot and humid in the day, and sub-freezing in the night, no problem.  

Bump firing a few thousand rounds of whatever ammo someone had on hand at these events, no problem.


Now with it refinished, and its badassification complete, the damn thing will shoot 3-4 inch groups with 124gr WMC JHP all day long.  Never a jam, reasonably accurate, EXACTLY WHAT AN AK WAS DESIGNED FOR.  Show me were Lord Kalashnikov was quoted as saying shit like finish and looks matter over functionality and durability.  Seriously, go look, I'll wait.

where would a build from azex rank, i just ordered one

As far as "pick up the phone and order it from stock", what would be the best underfolder or sidefolder 7.62x39 currently (Apr 2007) available? It has to have:
- a chromed bore/chamber
- FSB that is properly installed
- prefer a parkerized finish
- underfolder or sidefolder have lock up tightly
- no trigger slap

What of the Global Trades ssr-akms?

new guy to AK's here.

what is this ''trigger slap'' issue that has been reffered to?

*edit*
i figured it out, as well as the fix for it.

Thoughts on this AK for $779 (Quality wise)

"Russian  Classic AK 47 Rifle,  762 x 39 , semi auto,100% new, Imported Semi auto gas operated carbine,  
base rifle built at the Russian Izmash arsenal & imported by  Russian American Armory Company  , receiver marked made in Russia Izmash Arsenal, Saiga 762 x39  .Featuring 16 inch  chrome lined threaded barrel  with Flash Hider & Bayonet Lug ,pistol grip
, beautifull traditional wood stock set for the Classic old school AK look ! ,these have all the cool goodies!! ,If you are looking for a high quality Russian type AK47 rifle then you have found it .will accept high capacity magazines."

from Atlantic Firearms


Anyone?