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SSeric02
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Posted: 11/28/2008 9:43:27 AM
So, I've decided to add a Galil to my collection and was hoping to get a little input from folks here in the know. The most commonly seen Galils are 5.56, but I've seen there are some available in 7.62x39 that will accept AK magazines. Anyone have any insight or recommendations on which to go with in the current environment? How hard are good 5.56 magazines to find?

Thanks!
AzDeuce
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Posted: 11/28/2008 5:31:05 PM
SSeric02

Not too sure about current situation of Galil mags as the Obama Bin Biden win kind of threw all the availability/prices out the window.

The only 7.62x39mm Galils are custom made, the Israelis never made them in this caliber. The closest thing would be a M62/M76 Valmet....however those are VERY expensive. But I do like the 7.62x39 over the 223 in weapon that could end up being used in a SHTF scenario, so....

So my option was to build my own (have it built, actually!), I call her the Super Galil. The ultimate AK variation IMHO! :-)

I started out with a 1st generation ORF receiver, a custom built/converted chrome lined AKM barrel, a Galil parts kit, Tapco double hook trigger parts, a SEI AK47 Vortex, and SAKO M92/M95 handguards. I use Bulgarian waffle mags in her, as they look kind of like Valmet waffle mags. She's part Galil, part Valmet, and TOTALLY AWESOME!

Right now shes with Jeff Miller in Tn, who is milling the lightening cut on the right side of the receiver like on military Galils and Valmets. He removed the original markings and replaced them out of sight, and added all the Israeli markings and crest. He trued the receiver, reparkerzed, and dura-coated her, and is making a set of heatshields for the handguards.

I already had about 1300 rds through her before I sent her off to Jeff for the "finishing touches". She is the most fun AK variant I have ever shot or owned, to me, she's the perfect AK.

I hear ORF now has 7.62x39mm barrels, unfortunatly they're not chrome lined, but if you had one of those, and took it to a good machine shop, with a AKM barrel I they could use it as a pattern, and turn the AKM barrel to work. you WILL have to put a sleeve on the barrel where the front sight/gas block fits. You could use Galil AR handguards, and I think you would have a nice Super Galil clone of your own.

I wouldn't build one without a chrome lined barre due to the laquer on the steel cases, and the steel case themselves.....but that's just me. Everyone who has fired the Super Galil trys to buy it from me, it's that good/cool! I'm a M14 kind of guy, but I do REALLY like the Super Galil.....hopefully I will never sell it.

Someday when I get a "real' computer I hope to be able to post pictures of her, right now I only got webtv, and am digitally challenged!

Sempr Fi
AZ Deuce
SSeric02
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Posted: 11/28/2008 5:50:36 PM
Thanks Deuce.

I've got a Valmet RK62 and really like it, though I rarely shoot it. They're AKs that have been to charm school, and I like the design and improvements over an AK.

Yep, the Israelis did make small numbers on the Galil in 7.62x39 for export. I think the Columbians bought a bunch and have at least one picture of some Columbian police with them. And, there's a couple custom makers building them now on ORF receivers.

But, my question rally all boils down to ammo and mags. I'm not convinced that the 7.62x39 is so ballistically superior of the 5.56 as to warrant it as a choice, especially as I'm starting to see a need to reduce the different ammo calibers I've got to supply for. But, magazine availability is a consideration too. Lots of AK pattern mags to be had which will work in the 7.62x39 version as well as my Valmet. Galil mags seem to be much harder to come by.

Thanks and S/F to you too,
Eric
VLODPG
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Posted: 11/28/2008 6:53:03 PM
Damm both of you for posting without pictures!
AzDeuce
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Posted: 11/28/2008 7:25:31 PM
Eric

I think the 7.62x39 Galils were actually the R4 South African version of the Galil - at least that's what I've read on different internet sites, but how reliable that is, is anybodies guess. From what I heard IMI never made a 7.62x39 version, which I thought was dumb. At least for Specal Forces types who work behind the enemy lines I'd think using a Galil in an area rife wih Chi-com/Russian ammo this would be a no-brainer, but they must know more than me.....that wouldn't be too hard :-O

Back in the early 80s I had a Valmet M62 wood stock/cheesegrater handguard. Beautiful rifle, but there was no ammo available back then, so I sold it.....DOH! Can't/WON'T pay the prices for one now-a-days, so I built a bastardized clone. I'm very happy with it.

I think the 7.62x39 is a better people stopper than the 223 based on articles, friends back from Iraq, and my 30+ years experience in the desert shooting coyotes and jack rabbits. That being said I've recently been introduced to ballistic tipped ammo in 223. This stuff is absolutely devastating on any fleshy target.

Since I'm not restricted by the Geneva Convention, ballistic tips are now my favorite 223 type ammo. These things make a 223 work like it did in the early 60s with the 1/14 twist AR/M16 barrels...just devastating....a Doctors worst night mare. So with those....yeah the 223 can be a real killer, but you will lose your penetration capability, not a good thing in an urban environment. Might be ok on a jihadst in a t-shirt though :-)

That's why I like my 308 M14s, no question as to who will come out on top there. While an M4 is handier, as long as it doesn't have all kinds of crap hanging off of it, I would still reach for the Super Galil as opposed to my XM177E2 clone, if that was the choices.

As far as ammo choices to each his own, but I prefer the 7.62x39 over the 223 for a SHTF scenario, so my ammo supply has about equal amounts of 223, and 7.62x39.....BUT! I only have one 7.62x39 weapon, and FOUR 223weapons so that's got to say something! Well.....at least about me, and my decision. Of course this PAILS in comparison to the amount of 308 I have. But the '14s ARE my first line of defense, everything else is just eye candy as far as I'm concerned.

Sinse you already own one of the worlds best AK variants, I'd get a bunch of ammo for it, and a new set of tritium night sights for it, and call it good....but that's just me, your mileage may vary.

Good Luck - Tom

SSeric02
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Posted: 11/28/2008 8:08:09 PM
Originally Posted By VLODPG:
Damm both of you for posting without pictures!


Sorry, I've never been much of one for posting pics on the internet. But, I can email you the pic of the Colmbian guys with the 7.62x39 Galils if you'd like. Pretty sure I got it off someone's post on this website anyways. The only pics I've got of my Valmet are saved on a hard drive that's in storage still with most of my crap from the last time I went abroad. What can I say...I'm lazy about unpacking! Or practical maybe, as I know the bug will get me again soon.

In re the R4s, to my knowledge, from former coworkers who are South African, the R4s and R5s were all 5.56mm. They all mentioned being fairly displeased when they had to turn their R1s, AKs, and G3s for the 5.56. In fact, one was quite unimpressed with their effectiveness when he had to shoot some thugs with one on a call out when he was a cop.

Anyways, it's also entirely possible the 7.62x39 Galils were license built by Columbia, or whoever as well. But, it does seem like a natural idea! Kind of full circle for the design in a way.
edman99
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Posted: 11/29/2008 8:37:23 AM
Picture of the R4 in 7.62x39



Photo courtesy of Buddy Hinton
SSeric02
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Posted: 11/29/2008 1:10:05 PM
[Last Edit: 11/29/2008 5:12:20 PM by SSeric02]
Yep, that's the pic I've got, only it was captioned Galil when I found it. Any commentary to go along with it from Buddy? Still waiting for the R4 history to be published on Valmet.org. Course the Galil and R4 are the same except for the longer buttstock the South Africans needed and supposedly slightly heavier barrel, and who knows on license made copies in other countries.

Either way, I think I'm going with the 7.62x39 just due to magazine availability.

ETA: In fact, Buddy Hinton has the pic above referenced as a Galil 7.62x39 on his index of pics at Sturmgewehr.

http://www.sturmgewehr.com/bhinton/Galil/Galil_7,62x39A.jpg
jetskrtal
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Posted: 11/29/2008 11:01:37 PM
Here's an ORF version 7.62x39 ARM.
SSeric02
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Posted: 11/30/2008 1:06:04 AM
Originally Posted By jetskrtal:
Here's an ORF version 7.62x39 ARM.


Nice!

How do you like it?

SevenSixTwoxFiftyOne
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Posted: 11/30/2008 8:00:37 PM
with the election of the new overlord and the possiblity of a ban on imported ammo i would honestly go for the 556/223 version the isreali's dont seem to have a problem shooting bad guys with it
SSeric02
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Posted: 11/30/2008 8:10:30 PM
Originally Posted By SevenSixTwoxFiftyOne:
with the election of the new overlord and the possiblity of a ban on imported ammo i would honestly go for the 556/223 version the isreali's dont seem to have a problem shooting bad guys with it


Hmm, good point.

VLODPG
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Posted: 12/3/2008 8:46:00 AM
Udate from AzDeuce

Since he has some issues with his web service, I am lending a helping hand below.
––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––



I've sent you all some different views that Jeff Miller sent me this morning of the Super Galil (SG). It is still in his possession just waiting for the correct thickness of metal to show up, so he can make up some heat shields for the hand guards. Other than that the SG is finished.

She is absolutely beautiful, and this project turned out WAY better than I had envisioned. This rifle stared out with a mismatched parts kit, an out of spec receiver, a chromelined converted AK barrel that wouldn't screw into the receiver, and I couldn't find anybody in this town who would attempt to build it for me. Including a local gunsmth who builds AKs FALs, and Galils nationwide!

Fortunately the Lord quickened my mind (it happens occasionally) and I thought about Brian Pensley in Indiana. He'd never built an AK type weapon but he was willing to give it a try.....and try he did, it took a few trips back to him, to sort out unforseen problems.

One of those problems was the fact the barrel is screwed into the receiver with right hand threads, but the AK (self-tightening) Vortex goes on the other end of the barrel with left hand threads and tightens itself with every shot, after several hundred round it would start unscrewing the barrel off of the receiver!! Not a good thing! But eventually I had a good reliable, accurate rifle. But it wasn't very "pretty", as the finish on the parts kit as mostly wore off.

Then I came upon A Galil for sale on GunBroker and it had the right side military mill cut, which is ALWAYS missing on the civilian Galils, and was a feature I wanted on the SG, plus it had all the markings redone in Hebrew. So I wrote asking where he had got the mill cut done. Turned out to be Jeff, who done the mill cut himself, and he builds Galils, he said he'd be willing to do mine, plus some other work, and the rifle you see here is the finished result.

I remember how frustrated I was in the beginning, as I was sitting on a box of useless, ill-fitting, parts, this was back when I was finishing up my chemo treatments. Now that I'm looking at the finished product, it was a long journey, but definitely worth it. I think I have the coolest AK variant in the world!

Although Pastor Wyn, might want to argue the point, as he's built several Valmet clones, and has a M62 clone that could probably give the SG a run for the money. But I still think mines sexier :-)

This all started out as a discussion between me, and my son Tomas, after reading about the dismal knock down power of the 223 round in Iraq, so we discussed what the ultimate urban scenario weapon should be, and look like. The SG was the result. Then we decided we wanted to build one.

The closest rifle to what we built is the Valmet M62 which is in7.62x39mm, the caliber we deemed best in a urban environment, however the M62 doesn't have all the features we wanted in our ultimate assualt rifle. It didn't have a easy to engage folding stock, chrome lined barrel, or handguards that would protect your hands from getting burned on the gas tube (a MAJOR concern with mot AKs).

The Galil was actually designed from the Valmet M62, but redesigned to be in 223/5.56 caliber, so we figured why not back date (reverse engineer) a Galil to the Valmets 7.62x39 caliber, obviously they must be compatible I tried fitting one of Tomas's AK mags in my 223 Israeli Galil and it fit....hmmm...then we tried switching bolt carriers and stuff, and they would swap also. I think the game is afoot Watson.....
So those discoveries started our quest for the ultimate AK variant.

A year ago a Valmet M62 would have cost you $2500- $3500.00 on up, now a days with the threat of obamageddon over gun owners heads, it wouldn't surprise me if they'll be passing the $5000.00 mark soon. I remember my only Valmet M62 back in the early 80s, I paid $650.00 for it! Sold it cause there was no cheap ammo for it....DOH!

Well, that's all a moot point, as I now have a one-of-a-kind Valmet/Galil super rifle, that to me is the ultimate CQB (close quarter battle) rifle I cannot believe how well this project turned out. Mongo GIDDY as a school girl! :-)










nictra
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Posted: 12/3/2008 8:45:04 PM
very nice!
TAG for an awesome rifle!
ChadG
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Posted: 12/4/2008 1:54:46 AM
AzDeuce's Galil is quite the site, if I didn't own a sar1 I'd have a Galil built in the 7,62x39.

TAG
AzDeuce
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Posted: 12/7/2008 11:03:03 AM
Thanks for the kind comments on the Super Galil, she FINALLY looks as good as she shoots - Mongo HAPPY!

I was at the SAR show yesterday, saw a few Galils both foriegn and domestic, didn't check prices...if you have to ask......

What did catch my eye, was a full-auto Valmet M62 w/M76 handgurds, and a Galil folding stock! A darn near perfect copy of the Super Galil, only with a "fun switch", for $18,000!! Not "really" that bad considering FA M16s are in the $15,000 range.

I also saw my dream rifle there, a M63 Stoner. This one was a rifle, I want the belt-fed conversion. it was only $70,000.00! I guess I'll just learn to be happy with my Robinson M96 Recon "Stoner wannabe".

Later - AZ Deuce
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Posted: 12/7/2008 1:59:48 PM
[Last Edit: 12/7/2008 2:09:57 PM by Razorhunter]
Hi guys,
It's been interesting reading about this Super Galil project! Thanks so much for posting!
While I'm not necessarily doing a Super Galil build, I AM actually ATTEMPTING to come up with the parts necessary, to do a little build (or mod) of my own.
I've got an Arsenal SA M7, and I'm really wanting to put an ambi safety on it. IOW's, I'm wanting to put the Galil style thumb safety on it.
Now I have actually obtained the pistol grip, which K-VAR sells, which has the milled out portion for the thumb lever on it. Arsenal did a run of SA M7 "SF's", AND more recently, a run of SA M7 "SF SBR's", BOTH of which are milled rifles, both of which have the Galil style thumb safety on them.
Now the only problem I'm having, is finding the rest of the parts for the Galil style thumb safety.
I am trying to avoid having to maching these parts, and I would at least like to buy the parts I need (EVEN IF THEY DON'T FIT PERFECTLY). I mean, IF they don't fit perfectly, I hope to either be able to MODIFY them to fit, OR at least have them in my hand, to help us machine new, similar parts, that WILL work in my Arsenals milled receiver.
I will also have to cut a slot in the bottom of the receiver somewhere, for the thumb lever. I HOPE to find an SA M7 "SF" owner, who can show me their receiver, and how the slot is made. That will be a big help.
Anyhow, this project is somewhat intimidating at first, and I've almost been discouraged a number of times, but I'm not giving up.
I mean, WORST case scenario is that if I cannot find ANY of the parts I need, then I'll have to just find an SA M7 "SF" owner, who can at least send me some good, up close pics of the rifles entire ambi safety system, and I'll just have to ATTEMPT to machine all the parts myself.
SO, the whole point to this post, is to ask YOU guys, IF anyone might possibly know WHERE I Can obtain the parts I need for this task?
To sum it all up, the exact parts I need are as follows:

I actually need a SEMI AUTO GALIL ambi safety assembly. The Semi Auto ambi safety parts, which were imported into the U.S., were of the style that us Americans use on our guns (meaning PUSH FORWARD FOR FIRE / PULL BACK FOR SAFE, just like on an AR.
In contrast, the FULL AUTO GALIL PARTS, (which I DO NOT NEED), were designed for PUSH FORWARD FOR SAFE / PULL BACK FOR FIRE.

As you can see, I would really prefer the SEMI AUTO GALIL SAFETY ASSEMBLY PARTS.


AzDeuce,
I am a little confused about the SUPER GALIL pics you have posted above??? I mean, it APPEARS as if in the one pic, the safety is not on "SAFE", and so you have the safety in the "FIRE" position.
However, in the pic that shows the ambi thumb safety lever, it appears as if it is in the REAR MOST POSITION, which tells me your gun operates in the "PUSH FORWARD FOR SAFE / PULL BACK FOR FIRE" mode.
Is this correct? I ask, because that would mean you are using a FULL AUTO GALIL safety system on your Super Galil build.
This is based on the information I was told by other members of this forum. They always told me the FULL AUTO Galil safety system was "PUSH FORWARD FOR SAFE and PULL BACK FOR FIRE" .
ASSUMING this is correct info I was given, that would mean you have a FULL AUTO Galil safety system in your Super Galil build.
Is this indeed true? I didn't realize the F/A setup would work in a S/A gun???? Maybe they indeed ARE interchangeable, and I just don't know it????


AzDeuce
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Posted: 12/7/2008 8:48:19 PM
Razorhunter

I am running the surplus full-auto safety in conjunction with a Tapco double lugged trigger. Jeff still has my rifle but if I remember correctly on the thumb safety, forward is safe, and back is fire. I don't like this set up, but that's what I got. I have a IMI Galil in the safe I believe it works the opposite.

I just got it out of the safe, and it does in fact work the opposite. You will want the "civilian" semi-auto parts to achieve your forward to fire quest. The surplus Galil will not work correctly for you. Plus the military safety in the ORF receiverd weapons have a BIG hole for the selector switch, while my IMI Galil has a small hole, I would think you'd rather have the small hole on the side of your receiver.

Being of the Marine mind-set, the SG's trigger isn't that big of a deal, as I patrol/hunt with the safety off, and my trigger finger OFF the trigger, safetys can get you killed! Of course years of experience, and situational awareness are the key factors here. But that's just my philosophy, your mileage may vary.

Possibly Numrich Arms might have the civilian safety parts you need...I don't know. Good luck with your project.

AZ Deuce
Razorhunter
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Posted: 12/8/2008 8:17:25 PM
Thanks Deuce,
Yes, you are correct. That IMI Galil you have, (being a S/A rifle), will indeed have the S/A trigger, which has the more Americanized "Forward Fire", "Backward Safe" safety setup.
THOSE are the exact parts I'm after. If nothing more, to at least use them as models to machine my own parts, IF for some reason they didn't work in my AK.
I'm trying hard to find these parts I need. I'm sure SOMEONE has some lying around...
Thanks so much Deuce.
Ugh
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Posted: 12/9/2008 8:31:17 AM
[Last Edit: 12/9/2008 8:31:56 AM by Ugh]
Did you check out blackthornproducts.com? Also you will need to change out you pistol grip base to the one that has the lug on the side for the linkage to attach to. I think SARCO has the grip based with the lug but that is it.

Picture of the pistol grip bases from 2manytoys
Razorhunter
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Posted: 12/9/2008 4:51:07 PM
Ugh,
Yes, I believe you are talking about the "pistol grip stud", or "grip screw nut".
I've never heard it referred to as the "base", but I get your point.
Thanks for the heads up. I was looking for that piece as well.
I have never heard of "SARCO". I'm off to Google them right now, with hopes of finding their site, with that part on it, HOPEFULLY!
Thanks.
Ugh
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Posted: 12/10/2008 10:02:20 AM
Here is the link and part#

http://www.sarcoinc.com/galil.html

GAL052 Galil, Pistol Grip Mount w/ Lug $6.00
Razorhunter
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Posted: 12/10/2008 1:40:59 PM
That part is actually out of stock at SARCO. I checked on it days ago.
Thanks.
AzDeuce
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Posted: 12/18/2008 9:18:05 PM
Received a call from Jeff Miller today regarding the Super Galil, he said he was unable to come up with suitable heat shields for the handguards due to the SAKO M95 handguards being too thin in the upper areas, and the excessive ribbing. He didn't have the heart to start cutting on my $350 handguards, even though I told him it was ok. He was afraid he might damage them. I appreciate his candor, and desire to ask me what I prefered him to do, before he did it. I call that openess, and integrity, I appreciate that! Based on our phone conversations, e-mails, and his workmanship, I can HIGHLY recommend Jeff if you need a Galil built/fixed. A very talented, and honest gunsmith!

Jeff said he would get the Super Galil (SG) sent out tomorrow, and I "should" get it before Christmas......COOL! I had a friend e-mail me last night that he's sneaking into town to surprise his parents for Christmas, he's in the Army, and now stationed in Hawaii, after doing a year in Iraq, we're going out shooting the Monday after Christmas. Hopefully I'll be bringing out the SG, a couple of my freshly finished AR15 retro clones, and my M14 Crazy Horse clone, Should be a GREAT day.

MERRY CHRISTMAS
Semper Fi
Az Deuce
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Posted: 12/29/2008 9:57:45 PM
GREAT DAY!

Went out shooting took my new XM177E2, and 604 AR retro clones, they work fine..cool!

When I returned home, my Super Galil was waiting for me, all I can say is she is absolutely GORGEOUS!

Mongo VERY HAPPY!!

I now own the coolst AK variant in the world......IMHO! :-)

Thank you Brian Penley, and Jeff Miller, for your awesome workmanship which made this rifle possible.......you DONE GOOD!

Aw crud! This means I haft'a go shooting AGAIN! I hate when that happens....... :-)

Semper Fi
Az Deuce
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Posted: 2/23/2009 7:33:46 PM
What about the 7.62X39 Galils Elite Firearms advertises on their website, any good?.
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