LEGAL STUFFSaigas can be converted ONLY if enough US parts are installed so as to make it a "domestic" rifle rather than an import. Domestic rifles cannot have more than 10 imported parts, so you have to replace enough imported parts with US ones to get down to imported 10 parts.

On pistol gripped Saigas, you need 5 US parts.
Non pistol gripped Saigas only need 4.
Here's what US parts I have on mine
buttstock
pistolgrip (new part, not on original)
trigger
hammer
disconnector

Under current law, semi-auto SHOTGUNS manufactured after Sept '94 can ONLY have ONE of the following features:*pistol grip*detachable mag (any capacity)*fixed mag in excess of five rounds*folding or telescoping stock

Since the Saiga shotguns are semi-auto and have have a detachable mag, you're done. No pistol grips allowed. Somewere someone once said that since the .410 is measured in caliber, not gague, it falls under the rifle category, but I've yet to have that verified.Post ban semi-auto RIFLES with detachable mags fall under these guidelines.Rifle can only have ONE of the following features.*pistol grip*flash hider or threaded barrel*bayonet mount*folding or telescoping stock*grenade launcher (ha!)So a Saiga RIFLE can be converted to pistol grip since the detachable mag is not the list, provided that the pistol grip is the only "evil" feature.If you have a SHOTGUN, you cannot convert it to a pistol grip configuration (unless you want to be the guinea pig for the .410 version)

THE 94 BAN IS DEAD!  CONVERT AWAY!  Just make sure you follow the US parts rule for the '89 ban

Here's the tutorial
:Parts ordered:
From KVAR: US buttstock $39, US pistolgrip $10
From TAPCO: Gordon US fire control group $40, grip nut and screw $5

The first thing I did after ordering parts was to file the mag catch lever to lock high cap mags. I used a 20 round Hungarian mag for a model. I field stripped the rifle and filed down the latch with a small hand file until it fit. I filed for a minute or until my hand got tired and then checked the mag to see if it would lock, being careful to file the latch evenly to keep the face square. I was real careful because I didn't want to file too much, 'cause you can't put metal back on once it's gone. When the 20 round mag locked, I then tested all of my mags in it and did a little tweaking so they all fit.
Last night I took out the stock fire control group by putting pressure on the shepherd's hook and removing the regular FCG pins and their related parts. I was stumped for a while on how to remove the two rear pins that hold the actual trigger and the yoke transfer bar. I was planning on taking a Dremel to the pins and simply cutting them in half, but I couldn't get in there with a cutting wheel. I tried to grind off the heads of the pins to punch them through and wound up putting two little gouges in the receiver- no more of that! I bent a steel punch trying to get them to come out- no luck. I finally took a bare hacksaw blade in through the back end of the receiver after the stock was removed and cut the pins in half. That took a while!
I then dremeled off the head of the rear-most rivet holding the triggerguard to the plate on the bottom of the receiver. I took a hammer and a screwdriver and banged down on the tab of the triggerguard that sticks out from the back of the gun and holds the lower stock screw until the triggerguard popped out from the rivet, leaving a nice little hole- more about that later. The front attachment of the triggerguard looks kind of like a weld. I wiggled it to try and work it loose to no avail. I finally bent the triggerguard down away from the rifle and took a hacksaw to the crevice between the triggerguard and the receiver to cut it loose. It came off with no problem.
Next I dremeled off the heads of the remaining rivets holding on the bottom plate and hammered it off with a screwdriver, leaving three rivet posts sticking up out of the bottom. On contemplating how to reattach the triggerguard, I noticed that the rivet hole between the original stock attachment hole and the triggerguard loop (remember I mentioned it above?) lines up with the rivet just behind the regular trigger opening in the bottom of the receiver. The front of the triggerguard has a little tab where it was welded to the plate, and this tab will go into the gap between the receiver and the top of the mag catch housing! Nice fit! If I punch out the middle rivet behind the trigger hole, I can use a small screw and nut to attach the triggerguard to the receiver and shove the front of the triggerguard under the mag catch housing!
I found out this morning that the Gordon G2 FCG would not drop into the Saiga. The G2 I bought is a double hook trigger and the Saiga uses a single hook. I seem to have bought the wrong one. Gordon apparently makes both. I'll either have to cut a hook off the G2, cut a relief in the receiver for the other hook, or get a single hook trigger system. Any ideas from those of you who have done this?
left to do:cut hole for pistol grip nutrefinish bottom of receiver (engine paint)
attach triggerguard
install feed ramp (3/4 inch pipe)
fit FCG

BTW- I was able to pop out the rivet right behind the trigger inlet leaving a nice round hole. It looks like a small screw and nut will hold the triggerguard in place! I'll get one tomorrow since all the hardware stores are closed. Sometimes it sucks working on my guns at night. I hate to wait.
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I'm keeping the original handguard. The black polymer Kvar stock is a perfect match.
I had to bend the triggerguard just a bit to fit right but I think that was only necessary because I bent it up a bit trying to remove it from the rifle. Basically I just squared up the corners. I'm probably going to have to cut off the extension containing the buttstock screw, but we'll see once I measure for the grip hole.
I got some 8-32 black button head socket cap screws and 8-32 stainless steel hex nuts from the hardware store. The screws will fill the four holes in the back of the receiver where the goofy trigger pins were and another will bolt on the trigger guard through the above mentioned holes. It's a great setup for the triggerguard, a lot easier than I had anticipated. The only concern I have at this point is that the rear of the triggerguard sits a bit foreward compared to my SAR2. The triggerguard comes down right where the trigger hole opening is, but I think there is enough room for the trigger to clear
.__________________________________________
I ordered my FCG from Tapco and got the Gordon double hook one. I didn't see any US made single hook set. I'm debating whether to cut my receiver to fit the second hook or to get another FCG with a single hook.
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I think I'll cut the receiver. I bought a small chain saw sharpening bit for my dremel that appears to have the same width as the hole that needs to be cut.
On the grip hole, I used my SAR-2 as a template and found the receiver dimensions the same on the Saiga. It is a square hole with side lengths of 1.2cm (0.5 inch) that is centered on the receiver and the opening is located 4.0 cm (1 and 9/16 inch) from the rear edge of the receiver. I marked off the perimeter of the hole with a sharpie and then used a big drill bit and drilled a hole in the center of the box. I then used the chainsaw-sharpening bit on my dremel to hog out the hole, and hand filed it square. I had to fit the grip nut several times and do some more minor filing work before it would drop in. The hole didn't come out perfect, but hey, nobody sees it anyway!
As it turned out, I was able to use the trigger guard off of the Saiga for the conversion. I cut off the extra length where the stock screw went and used a button head screw and a nut through the rivet hole to attach it to the gun (see my earlier posts for more details). The screw head went on the inside with the nut on the bottom. The pistol grip went over the nut and extra screw length quite easily and hid them, but I'll probably cut off the extra screw length anyway before I'm done.
I used the same chainsaw bit on my dremel to open up a channel in the receiver for the second trigger hook, and I opened it up a bit more than I needed too! Oh well, it doesn't really look like a hack job unless you know the slots are supposed to be symmetrical. I had to file away a bit of extra material on the trigger between the hook arms, and I had to relieve the pistol grip a bit on either side where it meets the receiver and wraps around the trigger guard because the trigger was binding on it. Using the modified Saiga trigger guard places the grip and rear of the trigger guard right up against the trigger hole in the receiver. On my other AKs, there's a gap of about a mm or two, but it doesn't bother function at all so it's no big deal to me. I actually kind of like it because the trigger pull length is shorter.With the fitting mentioned above the G2 trigger works fine!
I drilled the two holes for the stock and installed it. I also dremeled out a relief slot on either side of the stock where it fits into the receiver so I could fill the two empty Saiga trigger holes on each side with a button head screw and a nut. I need room for the stock to fit between the nuts.
All that's left now is to drill and tap the trunion for the feed ramp and refinish the bottom of the receiver!

I installed all the action parts and played around with it before going to bed. It looks fantastic and balances real nice!

I decided to buy a $10 feed ramp from K-VAR (it's listed as a bullet guide on their website) and use it instead of a piece of pipe. The pipe would work, but it looked too much like a Hesse job for my likes.
When I got it I discovered two things that prevented me easily installing it. The first is a rivet post that extends into the receiver from the left side that seems to have no other purpose than to thwart the installation of a feed ramp. All of my Saiga's have this post stubbing into the receiver right in front and to the left of the barrel, but none of my other AK's do. I used my dremel with a cut off wheel to cut a notch into the feed ramp to fit around the post- no big deal.
The other one was that the bottom of the feed ramp has a square extension that I guess is supposed to fit into a flat recess in the trunion. The Saiga does not have this recess, so I had to use a grind stone and dremel the bottom of the feed ramp to a round profile. This wasn't too hard either.

I just got back from the hardware store where I bought a 6-32 recessed head machine screw (black with a hex head), a 6-32 drill and tap set, and a center punch to start the hole. The feed ramp already has a hole in it and came with a rivet (which I have no need for), so I simply laid it in the rifle in the right spot, traced the hole with a mechanical pencil, and punched the center.

It looks like it will work out fantastic! Bullet feeding is extremely smooth, better than the pipe ramp, and it will look like a factory installed ramp once it's in. I painted it black with the same engine paint I'm going to use on the bottom of the receiver.
My only concern is being able to get into the action with the drill because the drill bit is so short, but we'll see!

Well, I got it in and it seems to work okay. I spent about an hour filing down the screw head because I was having trouble getting the bolt to close and thought the screw head was sticking up to high. The problem was actually on the left side of the ramp where the extra lug is machined. I guess my hole in the trunion wasn't quite on center so the ramp was off a hair clockwise. The ramp lug then caused the bolt to hang up. I solved that by simply using a cut off wheel to zip the lug off the ramp. Problem solved.

I test fired it today and it works fine. I just finished JB welding the screw and the ramp down.

Don't use the aerosol Gun Scrub or carburetor cleaner on your Saiga- it will take the finish off! I got a little bare spot where it says "read the fricking manual stoopid" on the right side of the receiver. I refinished the bottom with a high temp flat black engine paint that matches the finish perfectly, and I lightly sprayed down the sides of the receiver to cover the bare spot, but it seems to want to come off too easy. CLP takes it off, and I know Hoppe's will. I'm going to stick it in the oven and see if baking it on will help

.Anybody have other suggestions for a cheap refinish that will withstand gun solvents?

Other than the finish problem, I'm very pleased with this project!

Here's some more instructions on the feed ramp. I went with a regular ramp instead of pipe.
go to k-var
buy the 7.62 guide
toss the rivet.
dremel the bottom round (it will have a square bulge on it).
use a dremel cut off wheel to remove the raised lip on the left side of the ramp (click on the picture on kvar's site and you'll see it) and cut a notch in the ramp to clear the rivet that stubs out into the reciever.
set ramp in gun where it will go and make sure the bolt will close.
hand cyle a mag of ammo through the gun to see if it will feed correctly- make sure the gun is pointed in a safe direction!
find a flat hex head machine screw that will fit in the hole in the ramp without sticking up and buy a drill bit and tap to match the threads.
I took my ramp to the hardware store and hand picked a screw to match.
carefully position the ramp in the gun, making sure the bolt has enough clearance on the right side to fully rotate into place.
Take a sharpie and mark the ramp hole on the trunion (metal base in front of the chamber) remove ramp, drill vertical hole, tap hole for threads, and screw down ramp.
TEST FIRE GUN! you don't want to permanently attach it without knowing if it will function.
If it works, coat the threads and the bottom of the ramp with high temp (600 degree) JB weld, and lock it down.there you go!

This seems to be a popular topic, so I'll tack it to help people find it better.

Hat's off-you're Saiga looks great.  I too like the Saiga forend, but I left my highcap conversion with the rifle stock-may change to pistol grip later after looking at yours.

The only thing I really like on mine that you haven't done is utilizing the only good peice of engineering I've seen from Hesse-their AK47 muzzle brake.  They make one that fits over the stupid barrel sleeve Izmash has forward of the front sight.

can the pistol grip conversion be done in such a manner as to retain BHO?

Well, I dunno.  What's a BHO?

a Big Horny Olga?  :D

BHO-"b"olt "h"old "o"pen .  Maybe your Saiga isn't from Izmash arsenal, they have the only "bho" I've seen on ak's.

oh, THAT!  Well, it seemed that it would still work but it was such a pain in the ass trying to get it back in that I decided to skip it for now.  I see no reason why it wouldn't work if I had the patience to get it back in.

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Originally Posted By sobrbiker883: can the pistol grip conversion be done in such a manner as to retain BHO?

I, on the other hand (puffs out chest a bit), re-installed the BHO on my pistol grip conversion. It took art, but it does work just as on the standard stocked version. And I like the original handguard too :)

Schulze

Schulze, you are a man and I am a weasel.  I cower before your AK gunsmithing prowess!  Chicks dig savy AK smiths.  I wish I could be like you!  Can I say that I know you?

I guess you just have more patience than I do.
At least you proved it can be done!

Re: the question about .410 shotguns & the AWB
IANAL.


USC 18 Sec 921 (a)(5)

The term ''shotgun'' means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of an explosive to fire through a smooth bore either a number of ball shot or a single projectile for each single pull of the trigger.

USC 18 Sec 921 (a) (7)

The term ''rifle'' means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of an explosive to fire only a single projectile through a rifled bore for each single pull of the trigger.

Also
USC 26 Sec 5845

(b) Machinegun

The term ''machinegun'' means any weapon which shoots, is designed to shoot, or can be readily restored to shoot, automatically more than one shot, without manual reloading, by a single function of the trigger. The term shall also include the frame or receiver of any such weapon, any part designed and intended solely and exclusively, or combination of parts designed and intended, for use in converting a weapon into a machinegun, and any combination of parts from which a machinegun can be assembled if such parts are in the possession or under the control of a person.

(c) Rifle

The term ''rifle'' means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed cartridge to fire only a single projectile through a rifled bore for each single pull of the trigger, and shall include any such weapon which may be readily restored to fire a fixed cartridge.

(d) Shotgun

The term ''shotgun'' means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed shotgun shell to fire through a smooth bore either a number of projectiles (ball shot) or a single projectile for each pull of the trigger, and shall include any such weapon which may be readily restored to fire a fixed shotgun shell.

Answer: If the .410 shotgun's barrel is rifled: probably.  The Thunder Five is a revolver chambered for .45 Long Colt and also fires .410 shotgun shells.  It's legal AFAIK.

Hmm, maybe there is a reason to get a .410 Saiga :)

There was a guy from MD on this board a while back who said that his local ATF office had signed off on conversion of a Saiga 410 to pistol grip configuration because a 410 was a CALIBER, not a guage, and was therefore a rifle, not a shotgun, so it fell under the Bill's Krime law as a rifle.  He said he would post back with a copy of the letter, but that was months ago.   Hmmm...

However, on further thought, I am highly skeptical of this because the 410 saiga has a THREADED BARREL, which is explicitly forbidden in the ban for pistol gripped rifles. You can't have both.  yeah, I know it's for a choke tube, but it's still a thread.  However #2, there has been some debate on this topic since the Romainian threaded front sight base has a thread for the brake and the BATF says that's okay...  ?


Aw hell, I have a brain cramp.  I'm just gonna wait till september of next year and then not have to worry about it anymore!

Finally got around to posting a pic! And, I finessed the bolt hold open in!

US muzzle brake,FCG,Stock and PG.

Alright for first timer....

Don't bother with bolt hold open.  If you keep it in your trigger finger tends to push it up into battery.  In my experience it's best left out..

I wrestled with leaving BHO in or out, but if I pay attention I don't hit it firing.
I like it for showing "action open and empty" at the range.

Under current law, semi-auto SHOTGUNS manufactured after Sept '94 can ONLY have ONE of the following features: *pistol grip *detachable mag (any capacity) *fixed mag in excess of five rounds *folding or telescoping stock

I thought that Saiga shotgun I saw at the gun show this weekend was bad ju ju. This mall ninja was trying to sell a tricked out saiga shotgun with detachable mag and pistol grip. It had a surefire light and reddot sight attached. Glad I didn't buy it.

Bah!  just wait till September of next year and have fun!

I'm not sure about this, say you spend 200 dollars on a saiga 7.62x39, then you decide you wanna convert it, so then you buy the buttstock and that, then you send it to a gunsmith, have him modify it to take higher capacity mags and so forth, wouldn't it be about the same price as just going out and buying an SAR1 or more?

then you send it to a gunsmith, have him modify it to take higher capacity mags and so forth

Fez, you should be ashamed of yourself, send it to a gunsmith....
This is a WECSOG job!  a little 3/4" pipe, a dremel tool, a drill and a tap and you're in business.
But yes, it would be cheaper to buy one if you used a gunsmith, but it wouldn't be half as satisfying as building it yourself!!

SAR's are turds compared to the russian workmanship.  Plus it's nice to have an AK that was actually made in Russia.

but yeah, if I wanted a cheap plinker or utility gun I'd get an SAR

Um, as far as the BHO is concerned, unload the weapon, pull the bolt to the rear, pull and hold the trigger, slowly let the bolt go forward.  It stops.  To release, pull the charging handle back a bit, and let go.  Thats how it works on my SAR1 anyway.  

SAR's aren't really designed to have a bolt hold open device.  I think it only works that way because of the goofy off-spec triggergroup that Century puts in them to make them US legal.  I would honestly be surprised if Century actually took the trouble to design them that way, but I could be wrong.

Saigas actually have a sheet metal lever that sits in a slot in the reciever that IS designed to be a true bolt hold open device.  It works the same way a Ruger 10/22 bolt device works.  Press up on the lever when the bolt is pulled all the way to the rear and then release the bolt.  The forward pressure of the bolt holds the tab sticking up in front of the bolt and prevents it from going forward.  Pull the bolt back to release pressure, the tab drops down under spring pressure, and the bolt is free to go fully forward.

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If I use a "thumbhole stock" on my Saiga 12. Do you think I could get by with that?

Guntinker

Originally Posted By Guntinker: If I use a "thumbhole stock" on my Saiga 12. Do you think I could get by with that? Guntinker

No.

BATF has decided that thumbholes are in fact pistol grips.  No new thumbholes allowed.

Thanks for the info.
So...start holding your breath.

Thanks, I didn't know that.

Getting the BHO back in isn't so hard. The tuff part is getting the spring back in place.
Instead of trying to push the spring down to line up with the pivot pin...try using a bit of dental tape looped through the the spring and run both ends of the dental tape through the BHO slot. Then you can pull into position and slide your pin through. The last one I did took about 60 seconds.

See?  That's a great idea! But it goes against my grain of wanting to work harder, not smarter!

I hope that I'm not out of line for posting this. I need some sleep, posting with one eye open, and I've not read the entire thread. After some debate on doing a post ban conversion on the saiga 12 at another forum, we realized that our thinking was flawed in regards to our parts count. We were thinking that if we instaled US made: hammer,sear,trigger,butt stock, and pistol grip, that we would then be clear to use high capacity mags and of course a pistol grip. The Saiga is imported with a montecarlo stock, not a pistol grip, and a stock the pistol grip doesn't replace anything. So installing a US made pistol grip while not raising the imported parts count, does not  lower the imported count either. So basically, we need to REPLACE yet another imported part on the list therefore bringing the count down to 10 imported parts to use high cap. mags, and have a pistol grip. If anybody here can see how this is not correct please let me know. I just don't want us to have a false sense of security that we have a compliant firearm only to find out the hardway that we were mistaken the.  Binford

Here is the parts list as I understand it to apply to the Saiga rifle.
I crossed out the things that do not exist in the Saiga.

(1) receiver
(2) Barrel
(3) Barrel extensions
(4) Mounting blocks (trunions)
(5) Muzzle attachments
(6) Bolts
(7) Bolt carriers
(8) Operating rods
(9) Gas pistons
(10) Trigger housings
(11) Triggers
(12) Hammers
(13) Sears
(14) Disconnectors
(15) Buttstocks
(16) Pistol grips
(17) Forearm handguards
(18) Magazine bodies
(19) Followers
(20) Floorplates

That's 14 parts total, so replace FCG (3) and buttstock (1) and you will be down to 10 foreign parts.

Add a US pistol grip and unless I'm missing something you should be 922r compliant.

Now for the shotgun, I wonder whether the removable chokes count as a Muzzle Device (#5).

Any thoughts?

Originally Posted By binford: I hope that I'm not out of line for posting this. I need some sleep, posting with one eye open, and I've not read the entire thread. After some debate on doing a post ban conversion on the saiga 12 at another forum, we realized that our thinking was flawed in regards to our parts count. We were thinking that if we instaled US made: hammer,sear,trigger,butt stock, and pistol grip, that we would then be clear to use high capacity mags and of course a pistol grip. The Saiga is imported with a montecarlo stock, not a pistol grip, and a stock the pistol grip doesn't replace anything. So installing a US made pistol grip while not raising the imported parts count, does not  lower the imported count either. So basically, we need to REPLACE yet another imported part on the list therefore bringing the count down to 10 imported parts to use high cap. mags, and have a pistol grip. If anybody here can see how this is not correct please let me know. I just don't want us to have a false sense of security that we have a compliant firearm only to find out the hardway that we were mistaken the.  Binford

NOT TRUE

Because it was not imported with a PG, you have one LESS part you need to replace...

The rule is 'Not more than 10'...

A pistol-gripped AK needs 5 parts (4 with a milled reciever)

A PG-less gun needs 4 (or 3 with a milled reciever)

It's just like you don't need to take off one more imported part to add a muzzle break to an AK-74, so long as you add a US break...

So long as any 'additional' parts are US made, you're fine...

Originally Posted By iNuhBaDNayburhood: Now that the ban is gone, what are some modifications that can be made to these???...

Same question, but applied to the Saiga shotguns...

(My apologies if this has already been discussed at length - I haven't seen it.  )

Can the shotguns be "re-dressed" with AK-esque furniture, including pistol grips?  Is this an easy "bolt on" or a real "conversion" for the DIY crowd?  Will they be imported/sold already equipped like that here in the future?  Will higher-than-current-capacity mags be available in the US in the future?  

We've discussed this pretty heavily over on Saiga.com.  For the shotgun,  the fear is that a PG conversion still needs the US parts as it is not deemed to have a "sporting purpose" with it .... (yeah,  right   ugh).   There is an interesting link to a ATF letter that defines which of the 20 parts are included on the shotgun.  There is ONLY 13 listed  !!  This means that a Adding a domestic Pistol Grip and replacing the FCG with a home grown and you are good to go!

I can't remember which of the parts was not included that surprised many,  I think it was the trunnion but don't quote me.

There are a couple of folks thinking about getting a domestic FS available, too.  Some other things too.

HTH,  YMMV and all of that other kind of stuff  :)

(r) It shall be unlawful for any person to assemble from imported parts any semiautomatic rifle or any shotgun which is identical to any rifle or shotgun prohibited from importation under section 925 (d)(3) of this chapter as not being particularly suitable for or readily adaptable to sporting purposes except that this subsection shall not apply to— (1) the assembly of any such rifle or shotgun for sale or distribution by a licensed manufacturer to the United States or any department or agency thereof or to any State or any department, agency, or political subdivision thereof; or (2) the assembly of any such rifle or shotgun for the purposes of testing or experimentation authorized by the Attorney General.

Above is a quote from 922(r)
Site I use is Cornell's  
http://assembler.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode18/usc_sec_18_00000922----000-.html

The sporting purpose definition I think we are all aware of is vaguely defined, and we look more at what the man is banning currently  (example, rather than clear cut definitions).

I just posted the above to show Shotty's are in the mix too  

kpel308,
elite firearms($260) phone# (817)903-2715. and firefly firearms website= wwwfireflyarms.com($115) are doing conversions. prices listed are with you providing the rifle. its easy to do yourself if you have a dremel and a drill w/good carbide bits. check out the saiga-12 forum if you need more info. forum.saiga-12.com good luck on your conversion.

I am wanting to convert a 308 and I was wondering what all I had to do I don't think I have to do any feed ramp converson becuse I will use stock mags and change/swap parts to US type but  other then that I am lost