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Posted: 2/24/2011 1:35:50 PM
[Last Edit: 2/24/2011 1:51:36 PM by NHM90norinco]
THE IMAGE ABOVE IS A PAID ADVERTISEMENT It appears to be a Norinco factory underfolder. Now from what I’ve read, the NHM90 and the later MAK90s were post ban and many/most were held in limbo after arriving to be made “palatable” due to the AWB. I’ve seen stated that while many came with the angled rear / underfolder receiver, they were typically fitted with the thumbhole stock and the holes for the underfolder were covered and riveted. This rifle has an open top hooded front sight and the bayonet lug is completely cut off. It also has the barrel end capped by a short pipe tack welded on (I’m assuming that the barrel is most likely threaded under there right?). While these 2 later factory modifications seem to follow the trend for AWB era AK’s ,the factory underfolder has me kinda stumped. However I’ve also read that the Chinese AK’s being imported and sold at the time were hit and miss when it came to the AWB remedies done to them(some still have bayonet lug with no bayonet, others like mine are completely cut off, some have the cap on the barrel end like mine, while others slipped through with the slanted brake, etc…) Could it be that the factory folder was left on mine and it made it through customs and ATF inspection somehow or do you think this was impossible and that it was definitely remounted after the fact by the distributor or dealer and they just didn’t tell me? Some details, it has a triangle stamp with the number 56 inside of it next to the serial number on the receiver. It is an all numbers matching rifle (receiver, bolt, barrel, bolt shroud cover, etc..) Serial # is MS02XXX7 Here’s the thing, I know I would need to replace at least 6 foreign parts with US ones to make it compliant(Is this correct?). The problem is that I don’t know if the underfolder that is on it since I bought it this way new is original or not. Does the underfolder increase the number of US parts by yet another 1 (total of 7 instead of 6?) that Ill need to replace? There was no tab on the back of the receiver to attach a thumbhole stock and it looks like it was shipped with the underfolder on it from the factory to me. Will this be another foreign part Ill need to counter in the US replacement list with something else? If it came with a thumbhole stock originally and someone changed it to the rear folder, will adding a US pistol grip(like say a Tapco or Hogue) just be cancelled out by the Chinese underfolder that may OR may not have come with it originally? Also I know that the thumbhole stocks were made in the US by Bishop or Boyd of hackberry wood. So IF a thumbstock was ever on here but was removed prior to my purchasing it and replaced with a ChiCom folder stock, how do I really know how many parts are factory foreign, how many US parts will need to be added to make it compliant, and basically how can I know for sure what parts NEED to be changed and will they count? Ive even tried using the following webpage( http://thegunwiki.com/Gunwiki/BuildAkVerifyCompliance )to figure it out(it would work great for a regular AK build but I’m still not sure how to use it for my particular gun because of its unknown history prior to me buying it. My plan was to do this to it to go 922 ( r ) compliant: #1-change the pistol grip to a US made one(either Tapco Saw style or Hogue finger grip) #2-change the front furniture to a US made Tapco Galil or Intrafuse style #3-change the gas piston rod to a US made Tapco rod #4 change the FCG to a US made one from Texas AK triggers or Red Star Also I would like to be able to make this complaint without having to use US made magazines(even though I know I could gain 2 US parts count from doing this)…I have a lot of Romanian mags that I still want to be able to use and want the rifle to be complaint without having to count the mag parts in the mix. And depending on if I can take the thread cover off and do so, either add a slant brake or an AK-74 style US brake. This would depend again on what the final part count is. Is there anyone who knows for sure if my gun could have made it through Customs and ATF inspection with the underfolder on it, or is it almost 100% reinstalled by the importer or the dealer/seller prior to my buying it? How would you figure out the correct and accurate way to make this 922( r ) compliant and is the underfolder gonna end up being an Achilles heel for me in getting the facts straight on this? I’m sorry to bombard you guys with so many questions but I really need some help here and I know this is the place to come to if you need answers.Thanks to any and all that can help, I appreciate it! pics to follow... |
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Posted: 2/24/2011 1:38:50 PM
[Last Edit: 2/24/2011 1:41:01 PM by NHM90norinco]
I think I was a little longwinded as it wouldnt let me add the pics to my original post, so here are a few of the NHM90 I was talking about, thanks again for any help y'all can give me!
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Posted: 2/24/2011 7:01:36 PM
Your stock was added by an individual in the states. If it came in that way it had the stock removed and the holes covered up before it could be sold.
If I were you, I'd replace the FCG with a Tapco FCG. Many are against this as the Chinese FCG is supposed to be really nice, but, I'd prefer keeping the original furniture versus getting wrapped around the axle on which FCG is better. Definitely replace the gas piston. Too easy. You'd need one more part IF you don't mess with the muzzle threads or add a bayonet lug. Myself, I'm debanning a MAK-90 and will be using an Ironwood pistol grip. I hate changing out an original piece of furniture but the thing I hate worse is using compliance parts in magazines. If you add muzzle threads and/or a bayonet lug you'll have to add a part for each. On mine I'm adding an underfolding bayonet. They often didn't have threaded muzzles so I don't have to have a threaded muzzle. Figure out whether you want a bayonet or not as well as the muzzle threads and go from there. |
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Posted: 2/25/2011 12:08:11 AM
[Last Edit: 2/25/2011 12:33:21 AM by PreemptiveStrike]
Obviously you cannot change out the folding stock. In order for you to get the parts count you need I would change the FCG (3 parts), Hanguards (1 part), Pistol grip (1 part) and put on a US muzzle device of your choosing, this would give you 10 parts=compliant. Adding a US brake will not help you towards lowering your parts count, you are actually adding that feature(It won't hurt you either as long as you use a US brake).
Myself, I wouldn't change the gas piston unless you have the tools and know how to do it but you'll still have to either change the handguards or the PG to get the parts count to 10 if you went that route. If you're concerned about the original parts keep them as spares. ETA: Here is the Gunwiki part count calculator to help. |
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Posted: 2/25/2011 1:22:34 AM
[Last Edit: 2/25/2011 1:23:58 AM by NHM90norinco]
thanks guys for the input on this. Okay, so at this point it sounds like the importer or the dealer changed the stock before I got it. Im cool with that(I actually like the underfolder anyway). As of about an hour ago, the threaded barrel pipe cover went bye-bye(love my dremel! LOL!) and Im mounting(temporarily at least ) a US made slant brake (might change to a AK74 style later. I have a Hogue pistol grip and Tapco front hand guard on order. I will also be putting in an order for a FCG. Ill probably be ordering one from Texas AK triggers.
With these added onto the gun this shoud give me 6 US made parts, but I understand that its not the US part count but 10 or less foriegn count that matters, correct? If this is the case, will I have enough US parts on here to make it complaint without changing out the underfolder or the gas piston? Also why do you mention against changing the gas piston to a Tapco or other US made one, I thought this was supposedly an easy swithout(more so than the trigger group at least)? Whats the challenge to changing the piston? |
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Posted: 2/25/2011 7:01:51 AM
There's no real challenge to a gas piston. Locate the pin, drill one end of it out, drive it out, unthread the old. Thread the new one in until snug, then back it off a half turn. Drill the new hole in the piston and pin. Peening the rivet is the only challenge but it's not above anyone with any mechanical ability
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Posted: 2/25/2011 9:03:39 AM
[Last Edit: 2/25/2011 9:04:38 AM by PreemptiveStrike]
Originally Posted By NHM90norinco:
thanks guys for the input on this. Okay, so at this point it sounds like the importer or the dealer changed the stock before I got it. Im cool with that(I actually like the underfolder anyway). As of about an hour ago, the threaded barrel pipe cover went bye-bye(love my dremel! LOL!) and Im mounting(temporarily at least ) a US made slant brake (might change to a AK74 style later. I have a Hogue pistol grip and Tapco front hand guard on order. I will also be putting in an order for a FCG. Ill probably be ordering one from Texas AK triggers. With these added onto the gun this shoud give me 6 US made parts, but I understand that its not the US part count but 10 or less foriegn count that matters, correct? If this is the case, will I have enough US parts on here to make it complaint without changing out the underfolder or the gas piston? Also why do you mention against changing the gas piston to a Tapco or other US made one, I thought this was supposedly an easy swithout(more so than the trigger group at least)? Whats the challenge to changing the piston? This is correct. It's 10 or less foreign parts that you are allowed to have. You'll be able to keep the folder on it if you swap out the other parts you mentioned. As far as the gas piston change is concerned, It's a little more involved than just swapping parts out so unless to have the tools and at least a little mechanical ability you're better off to just stick to the drop in replacement parts such as the FCG. To change the gas piston you have to find where it's pinned, drill it out (drill press would be a preferred method over a hand drill), swap out the piston, drill it out again, repin it, and either weld or peen the heads of the pin so that it will not come out, then grind the surface smooth. All that work for only 1 part towards your count. In your case you want to keep the folding stock so swapping the stock isn't an option. If you use the Wiki link you have to swap out the FCG to get to the 10 imported parts, there's no way around it. Also adding the muzzle device doesn't affect your count as long as you use a US part. As the rifle sits right now there isn't a muzzle device on it and if there was it wouldn't count if it's welded to the barrel (if a device is welded to the barrel it's considered part of the barrel and doesn't count as a device). |
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Posted: 2/25/2011 10:29:38 AM
Originally Posted By PreemptiveStrike:
[quote]Originally Posted By NHM90norinco: In your case you want to keep the folding stock so swapping the stock isn't an option. If you use the Wiki link you have to swap out the FCG to get to the 10 imported parts, there's no way around it. Also adding the muzzle device doesn't affect your count as long as you use a US part. As the rifle sits right now there isn't a muzzle device on it and if there was it wouldn't count if it's welded to the barrel (if a device is welded to the barrel it's considered part of the barrel and doesn't count as a device). Thanks PreemptiveStrike for the reply and info......So if Im reading this correctly, since I took the thread cap off that was welded on tho the barrel, when I replace it with the US made one, it needs to remain REMOVABLE and NOT welded back on. If it is removable, it counts as one of the replacement US parts and keeps the gun in compliance, BUT if it was tacked back to the barrel like the thread cover was, I would essentially lose the 1 part count I gained from putting it on the gun beacuse welding it on to the barrel makes it a part of the gun and therefore negates its US part value. Am I reading this correctly and can anyone else confirm this too ? |
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Posted: 2/25/2011 11:07:58 AM
[Last Edit: 2/25/2011 11:11:42 AM by PreemptiveStrike]
Originally Posted By NHM90norinco:
Originally Posted By PreemptiveStrike:
[quote]Originally Posted By NHM90norinco: In your case you want to keep the folding stock so swapping the stock isn't an option. If you use the Wiki link you have to swap out the FCG to get to the 10 imported parts, there's no way around it. Also adding the muzzle device doesn't affect your count as long as you use a US part. As the rifle sits right now there isn't a muzzle device on it and if there was it wouldn't count if it's welded to the barrel (if a device is welded to the barrel it's considered part of the barrel and doesn't count as a device). Thanks PreemptiveStrike for the reply and info......So if Im reading this correctly, since I took the thread cap off that was welded on tho the barrel, when I replace it with the US made one, it needs to remain REMOVABLE and NOT welded back on. If it is removable, it counts as one of the replacement US parts and keeps the gun in compliance, BUT if it was tacked back to the barrel like the thread cover was, I would essentially lose the 1 part count I gained from putting it on the gun beacuse welding it on to the barrel makes it a part of the gun and therefore negates its US part value. Am I reading this correctly and can anyone else confirm this too ? You're not really "gaining" a part by using a US brake because technically the part wasn't there to begin with (the "cap" that was there counted as being part of the barrel because it was tack welded on essentially giving you a threadless barrel) and US parts don't count towards your 10 imported count max. If you were to remove the cap and add a foriegn muzzle device then you would be adding 1 foreign part to the maximum of 10 imported parts you are allowed to have, unless you reweld the foreign device on thus making it part of the barrel. This is why you have to use a US muzzle device or reweld a foreign device if you choose to use one. By taking the cap off and adding a US part you're not adding to your foreign parts count. You do not have to reweld the US device. You would have to reweld a foreign device to make it part of the barrel and not count towards your 10 imported part max. |
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Posted: 2/25/2011 11:11:03 AM
[Last Edit: 2/25/2011 11:16:47 AM by NHM90norinco]
thanks man I really appreciate it!
okay, I used the Wiki counter webpage and not including the new US brake, when I uncheck the trigger, sear, dissconnector, pistol grip and front gaurd, it still shows 11 foriegn parts and illegal. So if the new US brake that I screwed onto the gun isnt welded on BUT it DOESNT count if Im understanding this correctly, how am I to get the foriegn count down by 1 more without changing the gas piston?
Am I completely missing the mark on this, or am I understanding this right? |
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Posted: 2/25/2011 11:13:16 AM
You're welcome and welcome to the site BTW.
It (922) can be a little confusing sometimes. |
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Posted: 2/25/2011 11:16:56 AM
[Last Edit: 2/25/2011 11:18:04 AM by NHM90norinco]
okay, I used the Wiki counter webpage and not including the new US brake, when I uncheck the trigger, sear, dissconnector, pistol grip and front gaurd, it still shows 11 foriegn parts and illegal. So if the new US brake that I screwed onto the gun isnt welded on BUT it DOESNT count if Im understanding this correctly, how am I to get the foriegn count down by 1 more without changing the gas piston?
I am not gonna chage out the stock, cant happen so what am I missing here?
Am I completely missing the mark on this, or am I understanding this right? |
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Posted: 2/25/2011 11:20:59 AM
Originally Posted By NHM90norinco:
okay, I used the Wiki counter webpage and not including the new US brake, when I uncheck the trigger, sear, dissconnector, pistol grip and front gaurd, it still shows 11 foriegn parts and illegal. So if the new US brake that I screwed onto the gun isnt welded on BUT it DOESNT count if Im understanding this correctly, how am I to get the foriegn count down by 1 more without changing the gas piston? I am not gonna chage out the stock, cant happen so what am I missing here?
Am I completely missing the mark on this, or am I understanding this right? I "unchecked" muzzle attachment, trigger, hammer, disconnector, pistol grip, and forearm/handguards and I show 10 foreign parts=legal. I count that being 6 US parts. |
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Posted: 2/25/2011 11:24:10 AM
[Last Edit: 2/25/2011 11:25:59 AM by NHM90norinco]
so on the count on the wiki, Im suppose to uncheck the muzzle attachment? I thought you had said that the US brake didnt count on the gun or change the count beacuse the gun originally had a tacked on thread cover so it wouldnt make a diffeerence on the count. [quote]You're not really "gaining" a part by using a US brake because technically the part wasn't there to begin with (the "cap" that was there counted as being part of the barrel because it was tack welded on essentially giving you a threadless barrel) and US parts don't count towards your 10 imported count max[quote/]So I am good with the US brake and compliant?
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Posted: 2/25/2011 11:30:28 AM
[Last Edit: 2/25/2011 11:32:00 AM by PreemptiveStrike]
Originally Posted By NHM90norinco:
so on the count on the wiki, Im suppose to uncheck the muzzle attachment? I thought you had said that the US brake didnt count on the gun or change the count beacuse the gun originally had a tacked on thread cover so it wouldnt make a diffeerence on the count. [quote]You're not really "gaining" a part by using a US brake because technically the part wasn't there to begin with (the "cap" that was there counted as being part of the barrel because it was tack welded on essentially giving you a threadless barrel) and US parts don't count towards your 10 imported count max[quote/]So I am good with the US brake and compliant? Yes, The US brake doesn't count (as in you would "uncheck" it), the same as all the other US parts you're replacing. Uncheck them on the wiki page. You should end up with 10 parts. The wiki page is to show you how many imported parts you have remaning. ETA: I forgot to tell you that's a nice rifle you got there. |
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Posted: 2/25/2011 11:38:15 AM
Okay, NOW I understand, its that damn foreign VS US part ratio thing again that threw me off. Im sorry for all the stupid questions, it just takes a while for info like this to sink in for me sometimes. I really want to thank you for your help and patience. Youve all been a world of help and I appreaciate it!
BTW, thanks on the AK compliment dude, I love this gun and just wanted to kind of make it more like I envisioned it when I bought her. |
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Posted: 2/25/2011 11:44:18 AM
[Last Edit: 2/25/2011 11:45:44 AM by PreemptiveStrike]
Originally Posted By NHM90norinco:
Okay, NOW I understand, its that damn foreign VS US part ratio thing again that threw me off. Im sorry for all the stupid questions, it just takes a while for info like this to sink in for me sometimes. I really want to thank you for your help and patience. Youve all been a world of help and I appreaciate it! BTW, thanks on the AK compliment dude, I love this gun and just wanted to kind of make it more like I envisioned it when I bought her. You're welcome. The whole 922 thing sucks and is a big PITA but we all have to deal with it. I'll whore my Norinco the I debanned now.
And here it is with a SAR-1 I just refinished:
I actually enjoy doing it although it cold turn into an expensive hobby real fast. |
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Posted: 2/25/2011 6:33:15 PM
wow, those are some nice ones you got there. Is that the Romanian drums, I see they angle toward the front a bit(do you like em? Ive been thinking about getting one for a while now just for sh*#s and giggles ;)
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Posted: 2/25/2011 10:00:25 PM
I've read thru all this thread and I'd like to offer another opinion. Thats a beautiful Chinese AK so put it back as original as possible. Here's my thoughts.
Don't replace Chinese wood 1. use Tapco FCG, 3 US parts 2. Change the Gas piston, If you can't mail it to me and I'll do it, 4th US part 3. Install a US made muzzle nut that looks Chinese, 5th US part 4. Take one Chinese mag and replace the follower and base with US, 6th and 7th US parts 5. And maybe buy an Ironwood pistol grip and sand it down to the original slim version and you could even stamp it US. 6. Change out the FSB to a preban configuration or have the little "ears" welded back 7. Change out the gas block to one with the bulge for the cleaning rod, that can be rewelded also 8. Reinstall the cleaning rod Plug that into that parts calculator and see what you come up with. I'm betting this will work and when your done your AK will be post ban in name only. It'll take a little while to gather up the correct parts but it'll be worth it. Thats what I'd do, let me know if you need any help and good luck |
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Posted: 2/26/2011 11:05:11 AM
[Last Edit: 2/26/2011 11:26:44 AM by RiffRandall]
If it was mine I'd change:
FCG gas piston muzzle device mag follower or floorplate. If you were converting it from a thumbhole stock I'd say just use a US pistol grip.....but since it currently has a not so common grooved ChiCom grip I'd keep it. The red ChiCom "bakelite" grooved grips seem to be worth $$$, the black version a bit less. I'd rather keep as much of the foreign furniture as possible, just somewhat a purist in that way. Mag followers aren't that expensive, & it's not like you have to convert every single mag in your magazine supply. How many mags do you really need for range/defense use? Convert 3 to 10 (depending on how heavy your load-out is) & you'll have more than enuff mags for normal use & store the rest (mag parts only count when the mag is in the rifle...). If society goes totally Road Warrior/Dawn Of The Dead & you need more mags to fight off cannibal mutant zombie bastards, I *really* doubt there's gonna be ATF agents running around checking parts count. ![]() |
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Posted: 2/26/2011 5:37:46 PM
Originally Posted By JacksBlackToys:
4. Take one Chinese mag and replace the follower and base with US, 6th and 7th US parts I'd like to know where you'd get the US made floorplate. |
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Posted: 2/26/2011 6:07:18 PM
thanks JBToys for the offer on the gas piston work, ill keep that in mind if I decide to try to do it. As for the the PG im gonna hang onto it, but i love
hogue grips and have em on most of my guns. Plus its already ordered but thanks on the advice anyway. FSB might be worth looking into though thanks, is that a difficult changeout? |
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Posted: 2/26/2011 6:12:07 PM
[Last Edit: 2/26/2011 6:13:18 PM by NHM90norinco]
all good points RR, gotta be ready for those damn zombies though!
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Posted: 2/26/2011 8:40:29 PM
Originally Posted By NHM90norinco:
all good points RR, gotta be ready for those damn zombies though! Why bother being 922r compliant? You bought the gun that way. You did not manufacturer or import it. Why go through all the hassles. And then you want to keep the original parts so it can be put back to original. Sounds like constructive intent. Just enjoy what you have, use that money to buy ammo. |
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Posted: 2/27/2011 9:09:56 AM
Originally Posted By singtoe:
Why bother being 922r compliant? You bought the gun that way. You did not manufacturer or import it. Why go through all the hassles. And then you want to keep the original parts so it can be put back to original. Sounds like constructive intent. Just enjoy what you have, use that money to buy ammo. I guess I need to get rid of my Chinese parts I took off before the Gubment comes and arrests me for "constructive intent" huh?
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Posted: 2/27/2011 5:50:52 PM
don't mean to get off subject...does the NHM 90 pictured above have a factory /56\ stamp? all mine were factory/66\ . I did see a factory 56 on a norinco bullpup.
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