Arsenal Quality Fail and comparison with Saiga

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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Arsenal Quality Fail and comparison with Saiga

Posted: 3/26/2015 9:07:25 PM EDT

Arsenal inc has a reputation for quality AK's. I don't know who started this rumor but it just wasn't the case for me.
My factory new arsenal just arrived today. I was more than excited; I was just upset the whole day thinking about picking it up after work.
As soon as I picked up, I took apart and started eezoxing all over it.

I immediately noticed differences with Saiga (My very first AK was a Saiga)
Based on the look of the bolt carrier, trunnion and reciever, I noticed that they are machined very differently.
Overall:
Saiga looks and feels very slick.
-Arsenal seems dull in detail.
+Arsenal does win in paint finishes.
+Arsenal sights are straight

But here are some Issues with my Arsenal:
1. Bolt carrier hangs up when charged slowly. Is it designed this way or I just have to break in?
2. Top hand guard clicks when squeezed..
3. Gaps around trunnion and receiver:

Is this something to worry about? My Saiga never had anything like this.
My reason of purchasing an Arsenal was to get a flawless AK...
I'm disappointed.

Posted: 3/26/2015 9:20:45 PM EDT

[#1]

If IRRC Arsenals are made from stamped receivers. Siagas could be milled and that would explain the thickness difference.

The hangup could be because it's not lubed or it has not been cycled a lot.

The gap in the trunnion could be anything. Call Arsenal and tell them about it. They will make it right.

Posted: 3/27/2015 12:29:15 AM EDT

[#2]

How does it shoot?

Posted: 3/27/2015 12:43:15 AM EDT

[#3]

Quote History

Quoted:
How does it shoot?

View Quote

Haven't shot it yet.

Posted: 3/27/2015 8:25:39 AM EDT

[#4]

my Saiga has that same gap at the rear site block that you Arsenal does.

Does the gas tube have the retention spring on it?

Also the gap on the right side of the receiver with the bolt carrier is a normal occurrence. With the dust cover off the trunnion will be flush on the other side of the rifle.

Posted: 3/27/2015 12:10:31 PM EDT

[#5]

Quote History

Quoted:
my Saiga has that same gap at the rear site block that you Arsenal does.

Does the gas tube have the retention spring on it?

Also the gap on the right side of the receiver with the bolt carrier is a normal occurrence. With the dust cover off the trunnion will be flush on the other side of the rifle.

View Quote

The gas tube does have a retention spring but again I have doubts for its quality. My saiga felt rock solid, the retention spring is jiggly. I will post a pic or vid as soon as I can.

Posted: 3/27/2015 2:52:32 PM EDT

[#6]

I've had some that were real tight and some that were a bit wiggly too.

Posted: 3/27/2015 4:57:01 PM EDT

[#7]

Looks like an Arsenal to me. Not sure what you expected to find - these little gaps are common, but can vary from one rifle to another.

The stop surface for the carrier is the left side of the trunnion. The gap on the right side is not a problem.

Dust cover sounds like it wasn't fitted very tightly. Sometimes you can adjust it a bit to get a better fit.

The trigger group will smooth out over a few hundred rounds of use, or if you want to get it started, grab a few beers and hand cycle it a bunch of times while enjoying a movie or two.

Posted: 3/27/2015 5:07:11 PM EDT

[#8]

Quote History

Quoted:
Looks like an Arsenal to me. Not sure what you expected to find - these little gaps are common, but can vary from one rifle to another.

The stop surface for the carrier is the left side of the trunnion. The gap on the right side is not a problem.

Dust cover sounds like it wasn't fitted very tightly. Sometimes you can adjust it a bit to get a better fit.

The trigger group will smooth out over a few hundred rounds of use, or if you want to get it started, grab a few beers and hand cycle it a bunch of times while enjoying a movie or two.

View Quote

I mean, it will probably shoot; it's an AK. But from a cosmetic point of view, I wanted something superior than a WASR. Even WASR's don't have gaps like that or clicks.

http://vid1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag63/yekcoh/0327151654_zpssfa80s9t.mp4

This is just an annoying click..

Posted: 3/27/2015 6:07:57 PM EDT

[#9]

OP, what kind of Arsenal? They've made a lot of different AKs over the years.

Quote History

Quoted:
my Saiga has that same gap at the rear site block that you Arsenal does.

View Quote

Mine, too. Except my Saiga is also an Arsenal (SGL-31). My dust cover doesn't have quite the gap his does. As for the "hang up," there's more resistance after a couple inches when manually cycling it---this is standard with AKs as far as I know.

Not really seeing how any of this matters. I honestly never noticed the gap at the rear sight block until this thread. All I know is my Arsenal has run 100%, zero stoppages of any kind. I didn't buy it for its good looks.

I sense a bit of safe queen syndrome here.

Posted: 3/27/2015 7:54:32 PM EDT

[#10]

All my arsenals have those gaps too... From my milled to stamped. Still work perfect though. That click in the upper HG is weird but i think if you open the retainer and push it down it should lock. I may not be locked down properly.

Posted: 3/27/2015 9:14:22 PM EDT

[#11]

Put a few hundred rounds through it and the action and trigger will be much smoother.

Posted: 3/27/2015 9:19:32 PM EDT

[#12]

Quote History

Quoted:
All my arsenals have those gaps too... From my milled to stamped. Still work perfect though. That click in the upper HG is weird but i think if you open the retainer and push it down it should lock. I may not be locked down properly.

View Quote

Thanks all for the replies. The hand guard still clicks. I can't blame Arsenal since it's a US made AK part. I guess I'm gonna have to live with it.

Posted: 3/28/2015 12:03:04 AM EDT

[#13]

Yep that click is somewhat common on AK-74 type rifles. The gas tube is designed slightly undersized where it latches into the RSB, and the spring is there to take up most of the slack, but obviously not all. The idea was to allow some room for manufacturing variance w.r.t. total length of the gas tube from the RSB to the gas block. Otherwise each gas tube needs to be hand-fitted to the rifle on the assembly line. This is one reason why generally AK-74 gas tubes are not serialized.

If it bothers you a huge amount you can add a small dab of weld or epoxy inside the bottom lip of the tube where it fits into the RSB (let me know if you need a photo) and it will raise it up enough so that the latch cam should be nice and tight on the top face. File your weld/epoxy as necessary to achieve a tight fit.

I know it's an Arsenal and you expected it to be perfect out of the box, but this stuff can all be fixed easily.

Posted: 3/28/2015 12:46:13 PM EDT

[#14]

Nothing to add, I will go with what others have said. Bolt carrier dragging on the hammer is likely what you feel when slowly charging the rifle, common, non-issue. Fitting of the handgaurd, the clicking, not unusual. Fitting of the rear sight block leaving a gap, not uncommon. I understand these thing bothering you with a top shelf AK but they are superficial. They can be found on cheap and expensive AKs. The important things to me would be function, reasonable accuracy and front sight post centered when zeroed. Items you mentioned so far, don't worry about it. I would not try to "fix" anything more than maybe swapping around gas tubes and I would not even do that. Shoot the rifle, check function and being zeroed with a close to centered front sight post. My 2 cents.

Posted: 3/28/2015 7:08:21 PM EDT

[#15]

Your top handguard clicking may be because the gas tube is not locked down fully because the locking lever on the block is not fully in the detent. Or you may be missing the small spring "anti rattle" clip that fits on the rear of the gas tube where it fits into the gas block/trunnion may be missing. The bolt carrier "hanging up" when holding it and moving it forward is normal.

Posted: 3/28/2015 8:22:57 PM EDT

[#16]

Quote History

Quoted:

I mean, it will probably shoot; it's an AK. But from a cosmetic point of view, I wanted something superior than a WASR. Even WASR's don't have gaps like that or clicks.

http://vid1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag63/yekcoh/0327151654_zpssfa80s9t.mp4

This is just an annoying click..

View Quote View All Quotes

View All Quotes

Quote History

Quoted:

Quoted:
Looks like an Arsenal to me. Not sure what you expected to find - these little gaps are common, but can vary from one rifle to another.

The stop surface for the carrier is the left side of the trunnion. The gap on the right side is not a problem.

Dust cover sounds like it wasn't fitted very tightly. Sometimes you can adjust it a bit to get a better fit.

The trigger group will smooth out over a few hundred rounds of use, or if you want to get it started, grab a few beers and hand cycle it a bunch of times while enjoying a movie or two.

I mean, it will probably shoot; it's an AK. But from a cosmetic point of view, I wanted something superior than a WASR. Even WASR's don't have gaps like that or clicks.

http://vid1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag63/yekcoh/0327151654_zpssfa80s9t.mp4

This is just an annoying click..

That would bother the hell, out of me.

Posted: 3/28/2015 9:28:48 PM EDT

[#17]

It sounds and looks normal to me!!!

Posted: 3/30/2015 3:03:07 PM EDT

[#18]

i've come to learn if you expect cosmetic perfection from an AK you will be let down unless you get a custom built one.
My SLR is perfect and straight, but has a nice little crease on the receiver. Will it change the function of the gun? no
But it can be annoying. My HG also clicks but not as easily as yours.

Posted: 3/30/2015 5:08:40 PM EDT

[#19]

I have a SAM7r that has a wobbly top handguard. It sounds just like yours. I have over 5k rounds through mine and It doesn't show any weird wear on the piston or inside of the tube. Don't worry about it. If you nit pick any firearm you will find something you don't like. I understand where you are coming from. I'm picky too.

Posted: 4/7/2015 8:58:18 AM EDT

[#20]

You can buy 10 rifles from any country and get a few that are perfect, one or two that really suck and the rest in between somewhere. If all you have to complain about are the items you pointed out, I'd say you did very well.

Posted: 4/16/2015 9:56:46 PM EDT

[#21]

You're being way too nitpicky.

Posted: 4/17/2015 3:40:37 AM EDT

[#22]

Real deal Izhmash AK74.

Has the gap.

Posted: 4/17/2015 9:40:11 PM EDT

[#23]

This conversation is going nowhere. Here, I'll get it started................ FIME:

Posted: 4/18/2015 12:01:58 AM EDT

[#24]

That's a fine looking Izmash! !
one picture is worth a thousand words..
Thanks!!!

Posted: 5/5/2015 12:10:15 PM EDT

[#25]

OP, to me all Arsenal rifles are overpriced by $200-300 dollars.

If they can continue to get people to pay their astronomical prices, then good for them.

I took a base Saiga 5.45 rifle and totally converted it to an ak-74 configuration and it looks fine and runs fine.

I just used my mechanical skills and bought a few parts from DINZAG.

Still came out several hundred dollars less than a similar Arsenal rifle.

Now, it's not something I would care to do every day as the conversion steps were a bit tedious.

So, nothing wrong with buying an Arsenal rifle now as you will be hard pressed to find a base Saiga 5.45 rifle for sale these days to convert.

Posted: 5/6/2015 7:44:23 PM EDT

[#26]

Quote History

Quoted:
OP, to me all Arsenal rifles are overpriced by $200-300 dollars.

If they can continue to get people to pay their astronomical prices, then good for them.

I took a base Saiga 5.45 rifle and totally converted it to an ak-74 configuration and it looks fine and runs fine.

I just used my mechanical skills and bought a few parts from DINZAG.

Still came out several hundred dollars less than a similar Arsenal rifle.

Now, it's not something I would care to do every day as the conversion steps were a bit tedious.

So, nothing wrong with buying an Arsenal rifle now as you will be hard pressed to find a base Saiga 5.45 rifle for sale these days to convert.

View Quote

I would have to agree with that. Arsenal does charge way too much for an AK. $500 US made ones seem to function just as well with about same accuracy.
Arsenal after all does not even have the best quality ever; Russian AK (SAIGA and VEPR) really is the BEST, no doubt.
Bulgarian parts (Arsenal) still don't match up to Russian. I won't be a returning customer to this over priced stuff.
But yes. Considering the labor work, tools, and time required to convert a SAIGA, I think the option is still Arsenal..

Posted: 5/6/2015 7:45:15 PM EDT

[#27]

Quote History

Quoted:
OP, to me all Arsenal rifles are overpriced by $200-300 dollars.

If they can continue to get people to pay their astronomical prices, then good for them.

I took a base Saiga 5.45 rifle and totally converted it to an ak-74 configuration and it looks fine and runs fine.

I just used my mechanical skills and bought a few parts from DINZAG.

Still came out several hundred dollars less than a similar Arsenal rifle.

Now, it's not something I would care to do every day as the conversion steps were a bit tedious.

So, nothing wrong with buying an Arsenal rifle now as you will be hard pressed to find a base Saiga 5.45 rifle for sale these days to convert.

View Quote

I would have to agree with that. Arsenal does charge way too much for an AK. $500 US made ones seem to function just as well with about same accuracy.
Arsenal after all does not even have the best quality ever; Russian AK (SAIGA and VEPR) really is the BEST, no doubt.
Bulgarian parts (Arsenal) still don't match up to Russian. I won't be a returning customer to this over priced stuff.
But yes. Considering the labor work, tools, and time required to convert a SAIGA, I think the option is still Arsenal..

Posted: 5/9/2015 12:58:02 AM EDT

[#28]

Quote History

Quoted:

I would have to agree with that. Arsenal does charge way too much for an AK. $500 US made ones seem to function just as well with about same accuracy.
Arsenal after all does not even have the best quality ever; Russian AK (SAIGA and VEPR) really is the BEST, no doubt.
Bulgarian parts (Arsenal) still don't match up to Russian. I won't be a returning customer to this over priced stuff.
But yes. Considering the labor work, tools, and time required to convert a SAIGA, I think the option is still Arsenal..

View Quote View All Quotes

View All Quotes

Quote History

Quoted:

Quoted:
OP, to me all Arsenal rifles are overpriced by $200-300 dollars.

If they can continue to get people to pay their astronomical prices, then good for them.

I took a base Saiga 5.45 rifle and totally converted it to an ak-74 configuration and it looks fine and runs fine.

I just used my mechanical skills and bought a few parts from DINZAG.

Still came out several hundred dollars less than a similar Arsenal rifle.

Now, it's not something I would care to do every day as the conversion steps were a bit tedious.

So, nothing wrong with buying an Arsenal rifle now as you will be hard pressed to find a base Saiga 5.45 rifle for sale these days to convert.

I would have to agree with that. Arsenal does charge way too much for an AK. $500 US made ones seem to function just as well with about same accuracy.
Arsenal after all does not even have the best quality ever; Russian AK (SAIGA and VEPR) really is the BEST, no doubt.
Bulgarian parts (Arsenal) still don't match up to Russian. I won't be a returning customer to this over priced stuff.
But yes. Considering the labor work, tools, and time required to convert a SAIGA, I think the option is still Arsenal..

Yep.. There was a very brief time where the Saiga rifles flooded the markets and were very affordable, and at the same time surplus parts kits made authentic conversion very affordable at huge savings over an Arsenal - that is if you could do the work yourself. Unfortunately that time is pretty much gone.