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DelaRanger95
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Posted: 11/22/2011 12:31:55 AM
[Last Edit: 11/22/2011 12:38:10 AM by DelaRanger95]

THE IMAGE ABOVE IS A PAID ADVERTISEMENT
Hello all,
I am stumped as to what is wrong with my newest addition to my collection. It is a 1969 CAI Wasr/10 Underfolder that was in seemingly great shape at the PA gun show I picked it up from in May 2011. The problem is that whenever the trigger is pulled or wiggled the cross pins pop out of their slots. We only fired it once at the range and the whole trigger group came loose and the safety lever FLEW off. Being a college student, the $600 i spent on it and a few mags (a rip off i know) is very important to me and I would like to have a safely functioning AK.
The only things that have been done to the gun are a good cleaning, Para-cord wrapped stock, and I re-stained the grip.
Thanks for the help!












BillofRights
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Posted: 11/22/2011 4:28:37 AM
[Last Edit: 11/22/2011 4:41:42 AM by BillofRights]
That wire (shepherds hook) is supposed to rest inside groves that are machined into the left hand, inside edge of the trigger pin. The pin is not seated. It should be flush with the receiver on the right side. Make sure the pin is all the way in, and you should see the wire pop into the groove. (The wire needs to be all the way to the left side, in the trigger pin groove) Google up an exploded diagram, or look at another AK to see what I'm talking about. Pull that trigger pin out a little, and you will see the groove.

Use something to pull the shepherds hook wire up out of the way while you work the trigger pin in. I use small needle-nose pliers, or string or a small piece of thin flexible wire to pull it up.

It is hard to tell from the pic exactly how the shepherds hook is currently positioned, but it is supposed to go inside the groove on both pins and be held in place by tension. Generally, it goes over the top of one, and under the bottom of the other. The main thing is that it needs to have tension on both.

It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.
Mark Twain
Paintballer
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Posted: 11/22/2011 11:35:46 PM
Pitch that shepherds hook & buy one of these axis pin retainer plates.
You problem will go away.


http://ak-builder.com/index.php?dispatch=products.view&product_id=29836
jdoming728
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Posted: 11/23/2011 12:41:47 PM
Personally Id just use two E clips per pin and be done with it... My Galil was the same way and I didn't like the wire retainer and just used two clips per pin....
A Man dont have to die to go to hell!!
POLYTHENEPAM
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Posted: 11/23/2011 8:18:45 PM
E clips are a terrible idea. Those are designed to work in a groove in which the sides are paralel which are perpendicular to the bottom. The axis pin grooves are round. The e clips will eventually walk off the pin or break.
Small hair pin or hitch pin clips will work better. Like the original wire retainer both are round. neither will walk off the pins or break.
Paintballer
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Posted: 11/27/2011 2:50:04 AM
Originally Posted By jdoming728:
Personally Id just use two E clips per pin and be done with it... My Galil was the same way and I didn't like the wire retainer and just used two clips per pin....


Look at the first picture, how close the trigger axis pin is to the bottom of the receiver.
You would need to grind the points off of the E clips to get them to fit, then they would be a real pain to get on after that.
It only has one groove in the axis pin how could you get two clips on it.

BillofRights
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Posted: 11/27/2011 7:00:49 PM
The shepherds hook has worked just fine with untrained conscripts in 100 countries, for over 50 years. Just figure out how it's supposed to work and fix it.

It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.
Mark Twain
DelaRanger95
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Posted: 11/27/2011 8:27:11 PM
Hey guys, thanks for the advice and ideas.
I stopped at my favorite gun shop yesterday to see if they are going to be open on January 2nd for my 21st birthday (buying a Glock 23 Gen 4) and we got into a dicussion about AKs. I told him what was up and he went in the back and got me a Tapco plate for the pins. Only cost me 5 bucks. Gun cycles perfectly now. It was a little tough to get it in position. As you can see it is pushed out a little where the safety is due to the underfolder mechanism. It does sit firmly in the grooves though. Im very happy!
Thanks!





N4KVE
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Posted: 11/30/2011 11:13:55 AM
[Last Edit: 11/30/2011 12:32:58 PM by N4KVE]
Originally Posted By POLYTHENEPAM:
E clips are a terrible idea. Those are designed to work in a groove in which the sides are paralel which are perpendicular to the bottom. The axis pin grooves are round. The e clips will eventually walk off the pin or break.
2 guns & 3 years later & still going strong. My Blue Ridge SLR100, & Global Trades SSR 85C were built with E-clips. Actually, I've owned these guns for 3 years, but they were built almost 10 years ago with the E-clips. GARY N4KVE

jdoming728
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Posted: 11/30/2011 12:33:09 PM
Its not installed right....You can just get two E-Clips per pin and and be done with it.... they are a little harder to install but also the good news is they are harder to take off......I have the Ak-builder spring plate retainers on my AK-74 and 47 but my tactical AK-AMD65 and my Galil I have the E-Clips and they work great... I was having a problem on the pins walking to the left and after installing two clips per pin....... No problem.....
A Man dont have to die to go to hell!!
POLYTHENEPAM
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Posted: 12/1/2011 8:43:01 AM
Originally Posted By N4KVE:
Originally Posted By POLYTHENEPAM:
E clips are a terrible idea. Those are designed to work in a groove in which the sides are paralel which are perpendicular to the bottom. The axis pin grooves are round. The e clips will eventually walk off the pin or break.
2 guns & 3 years later & still going strong. My Blue Ridge SLR100, & Global Trades SSR 85C were built with E-clips. Actually, I've owned these guns for 3 years, but they were built almost 10 years ago with the E-clips. GARY N4KVE



It's not the number of years which matter. It's the number of shots. Shoot them enough that you have to go out and buy some ammunition and then report back - when the clips break or fall out.
jdoming728
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Posted: 12/1/2011 12:00:32 PM
On My galil I might have a little over 400 rounds tru it but my AK-47 since installing a left hand safety in also I might have only 200 rounds try that one.....But on my Triditional AK-47 only 2 years old and over a 1000 rounds I have never lost nor had a hiccup in all this time....Like I said I have two guns with the AK-Builder clip and the others since I couldn't use the AK-Builder clip with E-Clips since if you know your Galils and also any Ak with a modified safety you can not use them..There is a way but its very hard to drill out those Spring Metal clips but a grinder would do the job...Il have to try to modify one and see what happens.....
A Man dont have to die to go to hell!!
N4KVE
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Posted: 12/1/2011 4:20:15 PM
[Last Edit: 12/1/2011 4:25:37 PM by N4KVE]
Originally Posted By POLYTHENEPAM:
Originally Posted By N4KVE:
Originally Posted By POLYTHENEPAM:
E clips are a terrible idea. Those are designed to work in a groove in which the sides are paralel which are perpendicular to the bottom. The axis pin grooves are round. The e clips will eventually walk off the pin or break.
2 guns & 3 years later & still going strong. My Blue Ridge SLR100, & Global Trades SSR 85C were built with E-clips. Actually, I've owned these guns for 3 years, but they were built almost 10 years ago with the E-clips. GARY N4KVE



It's not the number of years which matter. It's the number of shots. Shoot them enough that you have to go out and buy some ammunition and then report back - when the clips break or fall out.
I got a bag of clips from work 3 years ago, & even if the ones in the gun break [which I doubt] I have about 30 extra clips left over. Should someone break a factory wire retainer [happened to a customer a few days ago], they will be out of action for several days, but you could always go to Home Depot, or Lowes & the gun will be up & running in 10 minutes. That's what the customer did. Left the shop & went to Lowe's. The gun was running in 10 minutes..No, for me the clips are the answer. I won't be removing the wire retainers from my AK's that came that way & replace them with e-clips, but I also won't be replacing the e-clips from the 2 guns that were built with them for "correct" retainers. GARY N4KVE

jdoming728
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Posted: 12/2/2011 11:48:10 AM
Just make sure you take your gun in to Lowes and The Home Depot to make sure it fits.........Man wouldn't that be funny,,,,On the other hand don't do it.....Ak's already have a bad rep so don't go scare the employees........I usually carry a gun kit or I should say a backpack when I take my guns out or when going shooting or hunting so its just a matter of walking to the truck or camp if some thing breaks but yes its good to have spare parts of everything you might need its quicker than a trip to the store, Since Im the builder in the family Im usually fixing others guns and really can't enjoy the day but its all cool....
A Man dont have to die to go to hell!!
N4KVE
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Posted: 12/2/2011 4:58:11 PM
Since the pin fell out of the gun because the retainer let go, my customer just took the pin to Lowes to make sure he got the correct size e-clip. Nobody got excited when he pulled out the pin in the store. LOL. GARY N4KVE
Gunplumber
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Posted: 12/12/2011 6:50:53 PM
I also recommend against e-clips. Seen way too many failures, and as mentioned above, the reason is they are simply the wrong fastener for this application.
T. Mark Graham
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DelaRanger95
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Posted: 12/14/2011 12:03:14 AM
Thanks for all the info guys.
I took her to the range this past weekend and had to realign the plate after the first shot (wasnt seated properly) but once that was out of the way my friends and i put another 160 rounds through and they functioned perfectly. Para-cord wrap held up nicely too.
jdoming728
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Posted: 12/14/2011 10:09:04 AM
Took Gunplumbers advise and scrapped the E-Clips and just drilled out my AK-Builder plates to make them work on my Galil and also on my modified AK-47 with a left hand safety... I have to post pics tonight.....But I still keep E-Clips in my case.... just incase.
A Man dont have to die to go to hell!!
mac1871
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Posted: 6/2/2012 9:49:17 AM
i read this briefly because im having the same problem but my safety actually popped out. i dont feel safe to fire it i just bought it last night but im new to these im used to ar's
jdoming728
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Posted: 6/2/2012 1:09:05 PM
[Last Edit: 6/2/2012 1:12:48 PM by jdoming728]
If the safety popped out Id check the dimension on top and make sure your receiver docent bow out at the top and or the safety is or has been ground short on the round peg which stays on the hole in the receiver also I have seen peps have a hard time installing the safety and grind the slot on the rights side of the safety to give it more room and that also causes the safety to move to the right and pop off the hole in the receiver..... They are cheep I get another safety for good measure... Send pics maybe we can tell you why..A quick check is install the safety and run your finger nail on the left side where the safety mates with the receiver you should have a little sticking out on the left side if its under and into the receiver then your safety is short or the receiver is bowed at the top it its enough you should be able to see it when you install your top cover..and by the way if you do use E clips you will need to per pin to get it tight enough where they don't pop out... Only one in each slot will work loose... Again I backtracked on two of my AK,s and my Galil and just modified my Akbuilder retaining plates to fit left handed safeties
A Man dont have to die to go to hell!!