User Panel
Quoted:
Uh, MAC is probably one of the most trusted (and classiest) reviewers out there. I'd trust what he says about most weapons 99.999% of the time. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
Quoted:
MAC released a sneak peek of the front end of the pistol version on his Facebook page. I'm on my iphone so I can't post it. FWIW, I put zero credibility in MAC's reviews since he gave raving accolades to HTA and became a part of their propaganda machine. Uh, MAC is probably one of the most trusted (and classiest) reviewers out there. I'd trust what he says about most weapons 99.999% of the time. Go buy an HTA Kestrel and report back. ETA: I don't think MAC was intentionally spreading misinformation. But there was some very critical information in his videos that was incorrect for a very long time, mostly relating to QD systems, their "omni mount", and the ratings for their cans (keeps changing). Some updates with text boxes or something would have gone a long way to keeping his videos accurate and relevant. Not to mention that HTA really doesn't take such good care of their customers, and some of their cans have gotten a little bit explodey. ETA2: sorry for the derail on the 9mm AK topic. Looking forward to seeing how it looks. |
|
They are gonna hype it up with half pics and sneak peeks. Get us all excited. Then it finally is launched with a MAC video and a $2,000 price tag
I honestly think these are going to be quite expensive. Definitive Arms will make a great product as they always do, but this for sure isn't going to cost what people are hoping for. The cheapest rifle they make right now is literally a Saiga conversion with a shorter barrel (AK103U) and it is nearly $1400. I would think that this home brewed 9mm AK takes a lot more custom work than that rifle. |
|
Quoted:
LOL, I would have questioned why there was any to lose. Firearms reviews are a joke at best and ads on average. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
Quoted:
MAC released a sneak peek of the front end of the pistol version on his Facebook page. I'm on my iphone so I can't post it. FWIW, I put zero credibility in MAC's reviews since he gave raving accolades to HTA and became a part of their propaganda machine. LOL, I would have questioned why there was any to lose. Firearms reviews are a joke at best and ads on average. I like the reviews from guys who are new to doing the whole review thing, because they are reviewing stuff that they had to pay for. But once they start to "make it" and start getting supplied stuff to review by manufacturers and dealers... I stop taking them as seriously. I know they are much less likely to give critical reviews of products that businesses are giving them for free. Because if they slam a product and piss off the manufacturer, they aren't going to be getting anything new to review from them. Once they get to that point, it's just mindless entertainment to watch. |
|
They are not roll pins, To be exact they are HD Coiled Spring Pins and have a strong 2000 pound shear strength and hold up very well with vibration and shock. The automotive and electrical industries use HD coiled pins in products like steering boxes & columns, pumps, electric motors etc.
|
|
Quoted:
http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m167/tharmsen/10847412_949967761681690_4636737477405909574_o_zpsfmcnwweu.jpg Just sayin... View Quote Vityaz looking front end......very nice, |
|
I don't really want to lock this thread. dryflash3 |
|
|
Quoted:
They are not roll pins, To be exact they are HD Coiled Spring Pins and have a strong 2000 pound shear strength and hold up very well with vibration and shock. The automotive and electrical industries use HD coiled pins in products like steering boxes & columns, pumps, electric motors etc. View Quote While most of this is accurate, they are in no way stronger than what people are inferring that they would prefer, what is traditional, and that being straight or taper pins. Any roll pin (and coiled spring pins ARE roll pins, what the AR world calls roll pins are slotted spring pins) used in industry is not used to form the strongest bond, but are in fact used for production or field expedient work, where precision drilling and reaming are not cost effective or possible, and/or dis-assembly of parts may be required. If you come back and say that the holes are drilled and reamed precisely, great - that's what I would expect. So.. put straight or taper pins in. Those who won't notice the difference won't notice the difference, and those that recoil at the thought of a roll pin on an AK barrel will be happy. If the drilling and reaming is already being done precisely, and I have no reason to doubt that it is, the cost should not change in any appreciable manner. |
|
The cost of assembly would rise, as would the risk of damaged components during assembly. Straight pins require either a much tighter tolerance for a proper interference fit, or if that tolerance isn't achievable, a much greater interference than usually recommended. A .0005" interference on a .125 pin might tap in easily with a small brass hammer while a .0015" interference on the same pin will shear, gall, and be otherwise a miserable pin to install or remove. Taper pins don't have this issue, but then require a further constraint on depth of the taper relative to length of the pin.
There's absolutely nothing wrong with using coiled roll pins in this fashion, in my opinion. The shear forces on the parts being assembled are relatively low in any conceivable use of the product. Solid pins might look better, but are nowhere near necessary, and won't change the functionality of the product. |
|
Quoted:
Didn't realize meme's weren't allowed (I barely ever use them). Noted for the future. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
Quoted:
Stop with the meme's, this is not GD. I don't really want to lock this thread. dryflash3 Didn't realize meme's weren't allowed (I barely ever use them). Noted for the future. seriously? I was surprised too. |
|
Quoted:
The cost of assembly would rise, as would the risk of damaged components during assembly. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
The cost of assembly would rise, as would the risk of damaged components during assembly. Only if your workers are poorly trained. Straight pins and taper pins are not exactly the most challenging portion of building a firearm. I would suggest that if your workforce is having issues with the use of straight or taper pins that you have far greater issues with the manufacturing of your firearms. Straight pins require either a much tighter tolerance for a proper interference fit, or if that tolerance isn't achievable, a much greater interference than usually recommended. A .0005" interference on a .125 pin might tap in easily with a small brass hammer while a .0015" interference on the same pin will shear, gall, and be otherwise a miserable pin to install or remove. Taper pins don't have this issue, but then require a further constraint on depth of the taper relative to length of the pin.
There's absolutely nothing wrong with using coiled roll pins in this fashion, in my opinion. The shear forces on the parts being assembled are relatively low in any conceivable use of the product. Solid pins might look better, but are nowhere near necessary, and won't change the functionality of the product. That wasn't the point of axlnut's post. Axlnut was, quite correctly, correcting Atlantic's attempt to sell an inferior assembly and design method as equal by virtual of an unrelated application of a product. It was a logical fallacy being used to confuse customers about the product being presented. There may be no necessity for a straight pin or a taper pin, but using the fallacy Atlantic did to sell the method should that they chose because it is cheaper and easier should not be encouraged. |
|
Quoted:
Only if your workers are poorly trained. Straight pins and taper pins are not exactly the most challenging portion of building a firearm. I would suggest that if your workforce is having issues with the use of straight or taper pins that you have far greater issues with the manufacturing of your firearms. That wasn't the point of axlnut's post. Axlnut was, quite correctly, correcting Atlantic's attempt to sell an inferior assembly and design method as equal by virtual of an unrelated application of a product. It was a logical fallacy being used to confuse customers about the product being presented. There may be no necessity for a straight pin or a taper pin, but using the fallacy Atlantic did to sell the method should that they chose because it is cheaper and easier should not be encouraged. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
Quoted:
The cost of assembly would rise, as would the risk of damaged components during assembly. Only if your workers are poorly trained. Straight pins and taper pins are not exactly the most challenging portion of building a firearm. I would suggest that if your workforce is having issues with the use of straight or taper pins that you have far greater issues with the manufacturing of your firearms. Straight pins require either a much tighter tolerance for a proper interference fit, or if that tolerance isn't achievable, a much greater interference than usually recommended. A .0005" interference on a .125 pin might tap in easily with a small brass hammer while a .0015" interference on the same pin will shear, gall, and be otherwise a miserable pin to install or remove. Taper pins don't have this issue, but then require a further constraint on depth of the taper relative to length of the pin.
There's absolutely nothing wrong with using coiled roll pins in this fashion, in my opinion. The shear forces on the parts being assembled are relatively low in any conceivable use of the product. Solid pins might look better, but are nowhere near necessary, and won't change the functionality of the product. That wasn't the point of axlnut's post. Axlnut was, quite correctly, correcting Atlantic's attempt to sell an inferior assembly and design method as equal by virtual of an unrelated application of a product. It was a logical fallacy being used to confuse customers about the product being presented. There may be no necessity for a straight pin or a taper pin, but using the fallacy Atlantic did to sell the method should that they chose because it is cheaper and easier should not be encouraged. Big +1 to that. I'm not even attacking the product, and Kuraki, some of your points echo mine - roll pins are a way to get around imprecision in production work. A $1k+ gun that we've all been waiting for touted as assembled by experts shouldn't have an assembly line style part that isn't standard to the breed if you will. Just as I never expect to see phillips head screws on a firearm. I don't see the validity of your "taper pins and straight pins are hard" argument at all. Especially on an AK forum, as it would concede: we're not skilled enough or care enough to match the previous 60+ years of AK building, and - even worse to some - what AR15 builders can do all day long with no issue (pinning front sight bases and gas blocks) we cannot, as we may mess something up. In all honesty, that's something I would expect from a "low-tier" - 'if it works it works' gun, or a flat out working gun - but let's be honest, that's not what the majority of the market waiting for a 9mm AK is looking for, we're looking for something built to the AK standard, a purchase we can take pride in and not view any visible production shortcuts that aren't on a WASR, a DPMS AR, etc. |
|
Quoted:
In all honesty, that's something I would expect from a "low-tier" - 'if it works it works' gun, or a flat out working gun - but let's be honest, that's not what the majority of the market waiting for a 9mm AK is looking for, we're looking for something built to the AK standard, a purchase we can take pride in and not view any visible production shortcuts that aren't on a WASR, a DPMS AR, etc. View Quote Isn't the AK standard pretty much a "flat out working gun"? I'm thoroughly unconcerned about the pins. I am excited to see these, and already prepping myself for the disappointment when I can't afford one. |
|
Quoted:
Isn't the AK standard pretty much a "flat out working gun"? I'm thoroughly unconcerned about the pins. I am excited to see these, and already prepping myself for the disappointment when I can't afford one. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
Quoted:
In all honesty, that's something I would expect from a "low-tier" - 'if it works it works' gun, or a flat out working gun - but let's be honest, that's not what the majority of the market waiting for a 9mm AK is looking for, we're looking for something built to the AK standard, a purchase we can take pride in and not view any visible production shortcuts that aren't on a WASR, a DPMS AR, etc. Isn't the AK standard pretty much a "flat out working gun"? I'm thoroughly unconcerned about the pins. I am excited to see these, and already prepping myself for the disappointment when I can't afford one. Yep, a standard AK is a flat out working gun. They also cost between $500 and $1200 if we're talking WASR, NPAP all the way to Arsenal etc. Yet they all have pins... This is a niche, dare say boutique gun likely coming in hundreds above that, which is being touted as top quality and finely made. Again, you are helping make my case, not tearing it down. |
|
Quoted: I like the reviews from guys who are new to doing the whole review thing, because they are reviewing stuff that they had to pay for. But once they start to "make it" and start getting supplied stuff to review by manufacturers and dealers... I stop taking them as seriously. I know they are much less likely to give critical reviews of products that businesses are giving them for free. Because if they slam a product and piss off the manufacturer, they aren't going to be getting anything new to review from them. Once they get to that point, it's just mindless entertainment to watch. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: MAC released a sneak peek of the front end of the pistol version on his Facebook page. I'm on my iphone so I can't post it. FWIW, I put zero credibility in MAC's reviews since he gave raving accolades to HTA and became a part of their propaganda machine. LOL, I would have questioned why there was any to lose. Firearms reviews are a joke at best and ads on average. I like the reviews from guys who are new to doing the whole review thing, because they are reviewing stuff that they had to pay for. But once they start to "make it" and start getting supplied stuff to review by manufacturers and dealers... I stop taking them as seriously. I know they are much less likely to give critical reviews of products that businesses are giving them for free. Because if they slam a product and piss off the manufacturer, they aren't going to be getting anything new to review from them. Once they get to that point, it's just mindless entertainment to watch. Another recent video showed the new Sig 556R Xi effectively becoming a single shot rifle while shooting it at the range. It turns out the first guns to leave the line had defective gas tubes, but no one else talked about it... well, no reviewers anyway. There were reports on the discussion forums about the tubes being out of spec though. Sig has since rectified the issue I hear, I've yet to get the repaired rifle back so I can't confirm. Alex Robinson has been heard saying unpleasant things about me to folks I know since I posted a video showing an XCR having issues. He asked for, and got, his rifles back. If I were concerned about getting free stuff and big pay checks from big gun companies I would have posted these videos? For reference: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aTzS4sQfn4U https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_9xR2X6wCA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TagZ4UwLvqY Now back to the AKX-9 conversation. |
|
Quoted:
Big +1 to that. I'm not even attacking the product, and Kuraki, some of your points echo mine - roll pins are a way to get around imprecision in production work. A $1k+ gun that we've all been waiting for touted as assembled by experts shouldn't have an assembly line style part that isn't standard to the breed if you will. Just as I never expect to see phillips head screws on a firearm. I don't see the validity of your "taper pins and straight pins are hard" argument at all. Especially on an AK forum, as it would concede: we're not skilled enough or care enough to match the previous 60+ years of AK building, and - even worse to some - what AR15 builders can do all day long with no issue (pinning front sight bases and gas blocks) we cannot, as we may mess something up. In all honesty, that's something I would expect from a "low-tier" - 'if it works it works' gun, or a flat out working gun - but let's be honest, that's not what the majority of the market waiting for a 9mm AK is looking for, we're looking for something built to the AK standard, a purchase we can take pride in and not view any visible production shortcuts that aren't on a WASR, a DPMS AR, etc. View Quote I don't disagree with anything you've said, other than that the use of solid pins or tapered pins would not increase the costs. The very nature of production shortcuts as you put it, is to reduce costs. It's not about skill or ability. It is about a value proposition. You have different expectations than I do, and that's fine, I'm not arguing yours are wrong. Only the idea that it wouldn't raise costs. |
|
|
I have been watching this thread and honestly straight,tapered,coiled I don't care just don't make it so damn expensive that only a select few can own one.
I never really expected them to be cheap but I will be depressed if they are over $1200. I do believe in a free market so it will be what it is |
|
Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Stop with the meme's, this is not GD. I don't really want to lock this thread. dryflash3 Didn't realize meme's weren't allowed (I barely ever use them). Noted for the future. seriously? I was surprised too. Memes distract from a technical forum like this one. Post pics/links that are on topic for the post. From the conduct code, SPECIFIC TO THE TECH FORUMS. The tech forums (Ar15,AK47,Handgun,Armory,Training,Outdoors) are more "formal" and actions permitted in the GD forum aren't permitted there. These forums are there to share information and as a result, trolling, heated arguments,insulting others,etc won't be ignored. dryflash3 |
|
Atlantic
Just tell me what mags you will be using and I will either wait and buy yours or look for a colt mag pistol elsewhere..... Please |
|
|
Now I can cancel my RRA ar15 pistol order. Thanks
Atlantic- off topic- how are those PTR32-gen2's doing?? Any issues ? |
|
Quoted: The AKX-9 built by Definitive Arms will use the Colt Style stick mags they typically cost $19 bucks and up, We have been testing them with mags made by ASC and have had no issues this far. http://cdn3.volusion.com/ealcn.upcaf/v/vspfiles/photos/ASC-32-9mm-BLK-2T.jpg?1413460508 View Quote |
|
Dog ,,,We had had great success with the PTR 32s to the point that we can not keep them in stock , We did test them before offering them for sale to make sure they had improved over the Gen 1 . We have just sent a few out to AK Operators Union and Mr Guns N Gear for their testing & evaluation . Hopefully we will see some input from them in the next 2 -6 weeks .
|
|
We will not be attending the NRA convention this year we are very busy with several projects and can't afford the time away from the office.
|
|
Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Well, low output + high demand = high price. It's just plain economics, so brace for sticker shock. On top of that, the builder apparently does high-quality work, and that comes at a price, justifiably. I'm not bagging on Atlantic or its builder, just recognizing facts. I imagine we're looking at $1200-1400 for the triangle folding version. I'm going to guess more, around $1500. I have no inside info, just a feeling I have. Yup, $1500 was my guess too. |
|
Quoted:
You're dreaming. These will be closer to $2k than $1500. Definitive arms "basic" AK builds are in the $1500 range. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Well, low output + high demand = high price. It's just plain economics, so brace for sticker shock. On top of that, the builder apparently does high-quality work, and that comes at a price, justifiably. I'm not bagging on Atlantic or its builder, just recognizing facts. I imagine we're looking at $1200-1400 for the triangle folding version. I'm going to guess more, around $1500. I have no inside info, just a feeling I have. Yup, $1500 was my guess too. Damn. Guess I'm out! |
|
The AKX-9 is mostly built from custom AKX-9 parts to insure a quality build that can be repeated and works. The design and parts have been extensively tested and working guns have been up and going since last November. There has not been a final price handed down yet but I am sure the price will be more than $1,100.00, the price will vary based on the model and features.
|
|
Once again instead of arguing about price and how they should be built can we please get a pic?
|
|
Pictures , specs ,prices , videos all will be released once the 4 Models are ready for sale . They started shipping out samples last week & if they stay on track we should see guns in stock for sale in the next 2 - 3 weeks .
|
|
Quoted:
The AKX-9 is mostly built from custom AKX-9 parts to insure a quality build that can be repeated and works. The design and parts have been extensively tested and working guns have been up and going since last November. There has not been a final price handed down yet but I am sure the price will be more than $1,100.00, the price will vary based on the model and features. View Quote Atlantic, is it true that they are using cast I.O. made parts on this gun? |
|
bigtiny , where did you hear that ? I do not know where each & every part comes from but bulk of the parts used are custom made specifically for the AKX-9 project by a Machining Company chosen by Definitive Arms . I know the barrel was custom designed and built for the gun . The only off the shelf stock parts I believe are the stock set , G2 Fire control , rear sight and scope rail mount.
|
|
I have no info I can share with you guys and absolutely no stake in any of this so take it for what it's worth.......I was at DAs shop and actually got to see one of these 9mm rifles.........absolutely beautiful, I am more of a 45acp guy but I WILL have one of these in my safe......from what I saw you guys are going to be extremely pleased, it appears to be a quality firearm and wouldn't expect anything less from them. Those guys have their stuff together, I walked away VERY impressed.
|
|
Quoted:
http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m167/tharmsen/10847412_949967761681690_4636737477405909574_o_zpsfmcnwweu.jpg Just sayin... View Quote Its a rumor going around on the interweb.lol, but the fact that the sight bases are cast (you can clearly see the casting marks, and I.O. is the only one that makes those...) is why I asked. |
|
I'm sure it's going to be a sweet pistol, but the price is going to be hard to swallow if it's more than an Arsenal SAM7K or SLR pistol. Though it does have the market cornered for pistol caliber AK, I wouldn't pay more for it than a rifle caliber AK of a similar quality.
To each their own, I can only speak for myself. |
|
I am bummed that this will most likely be more than what I was hopping for but it's a sellers market for a 9mm AK.
For what it's worth I hope they sell and I am glad that Atlantic is bringing them to market. |
|
Too much $$$$. When you can get a Nano rife for $550, the AKX-9 prices itself too high. Unfortunate....
|
|
Definitive Arms definitely has the best know-how for AR mag interfaces, so going with them for a 9mm AR mag AK makes a lot of sense. If someone can get it right, it'll be them. But they are a boutique builder; low volume, high price. I wish Atlantic well with it, but I think the cost is going to make it a hard sell.
|
|
Quoted:
Too much $$$$. When you can get a Nano rife for $550, the AKX-9 prices itself too high. Unfortunate.... View Quote A Nano is too expensive, a Hi point carbine shoot 9mm and is a carbine! Point being, it isn't so much about the price, but rather if you want an AK that shoots 9mm, there now will be one available. I think people are confusing "pistol caliber" with "cheap" Engineering a 9mm AK from scratch is NOT a cheap endeavor, and neither is making it from all new parts and not just knocking it together from whatever scrap surplus kits there are. |
|
What volume will they be released in? Is there an email list to get on?
|
|
Quoted:
A Nano is too expensive, a Hi point carbine shoot 9mm and is a carbine! Point being, it isn't so much about the price, but rather if you want an AK that shoots 9mm, there now will be one available. I think people are confusing "pistol caliber" with "cheap" Engineering a 9mm AK from scratch is NOT a cheap endeavor, and neither is making it from all new parts and not just knocking it together from whatever scrap surplus kits there are. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
Quoted:
Too much $$$$. When you can get a Nano rife for $550, the AKX-9 prices itself too high. Unfortunate.... A Nano is too expensive, a Hi point carbine shoot 9mm and is a carbine! Point being, it isn't so much about the price, but rather if you want an AK that shoots 9mm, there now will be one available. I think people are confusing "pistol caliber" with "cheap" Engineering a 9mm AK from scratch is NOT a cheap endeavor, and neither is making it from all new parts and not just knocking it together from whatever scrap surplus kits there are. Dont you muck up this thread with your good explainations and reasoning!! All joking aside, perfectly stated. |
|
I have a definitive arms ak and the work is excellent on it. I see why Atlantic went with them they know what they are doing. Atlantic Arms also knows what they are doing to me make my wallet empty.
|
|
Quoted:
A Nano is too expensive, a Hi point carbine shoot 9mm and is a carbine! Point being, it isn't so much about the price, but rather if you want an AK that shoots 9mm, there now will be one available. I think people are confusing "pistol caliber" with "cheap" Engineering a 9mm AK from scratch is NOT a cheap endeavor, and neither is making it from all new parts and not just knocking it together from whatever scrap surplus kits there are. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
Quoted:
Too much $$$$. When you can get a Nano rife for $550, the AKX-9 prices itself too high. Unfortunate.... A Nano is too expensive, a Hi point carbine shoot 9mm and is a carbine! Point being, it isn't so much about the price, but rather if you want an AK that shoots 9mm, there now will be one available. I think people are confusing "pistol caliber" with "cheap" Engineering a 9mm AK from scratch is NOT a cheap endeavor, and neither is making it from all new parts and not just knocking it together from whatever scrap surplus kits there are. Actually, if people want an AK that shoots 9mm then there actually won't be one available. This is a blowback firearm. That is a completely different operating principle from a long stroke piston. This really, in the end, is more like the Hi-Point you mock dressed up like an AK. For that reason, it is ridiculously overpriced and just because something is "not a cheap endeavor" that does not mean it will not turn out a cheap or simple design that is overpriced. |
|
Sign up for the ARFCOM weekly newsletter and be entered to win a free ARFCOM membership. One new winner* is announced every week!
You will receive an email every Friday morning featuring the latest chatter from the hottest topics, breaking news surrounding legislation, as well as exclusive deals only available to ARFCOM email subscribers.
AR15.COM is the world's largest firearm community and is a gathering place for firearm enthusiasts of all types.
From hunters and military members, to competition shooters and general firearm enthusiasts, we welcome anyone who values and respects the way of the firearm.
Subscribe to our monthly Newsletter to receive firearm news, product discounts from your favorite Industry Partners, and more.
Copyright © 1996-2024 AR15.COM LLC. All Rights Reserved.
Any use of this content without express written consent is prohibited.
AR15.Com reserves the right to overwrite or replace any affiliate, commercial, or monetizable links, posted by users, with our own.