Not my first "AK Zero" thread but will be the last!!

So I FINALLY found the Target for the somewhat rare "25/200" zero that not many know about.. Its technically the "21 meter Zero"!!

You put the rear sight on "2" setting, sight it in at 25 yards, and then you slide it back to the "1" setting, it should be dead on at "100" yards. Also, due to the 7.62x39 trajectory, the "2" is zeroed at 200yds also. Hence the 25/200 zero..

I see it as a faster and easier way to get a 100m/yard zero (which I know is most important) to calibrate the sight ladder for good groups being my Arsenals selling point was that it has excellent accuracy for an AK so want to put it to the test by being my eyesight sucks, so chasing a zero at 100m would take alot longer.

This target below used to ship with Arsenal rifles, but my new Arsenal manual states to zero at "100m on the 1 setting."

I've heard people say that for the 100m zero, they sight in at 25, move to 50, then confirm at 100m.. Info on this needed!!

Does that mean that when its on at 50m, that its also on at 100?? (or should it be an inch or 2 low OR high at 50 to be good at 100m??)

Was dead set on doing the 25/200 but after hearing that people "confirm" on 100 after zeroed at 50m/ yards, wondering exactly how close it is to being zeroed at 100 when on at 50??

BTW, Heres the 25/200 target...Anyone tried both of these Zero's??

They get it on paper at 25, shoot at 50, adjust, then shoot at 100, then adjust. Depending on the optic (height) used there's not going to be too much of a difference from 50 to 100.

If you think the weapon is zeroed at 25 meters, shoot it at 100 to confirm that fact. If necessary, adjust so that POI is where you want it to be in relation to POA. Once the zero is confirmed/established, fire the weapon at 50 meters with the sight set at 100 to discover for yourself the difference in POI. Task completed.

I asked that being people make it out that once at 50, that they "confirm" at 100 as if its practically already zeroed. Didn't know if you could put it an inch or 2 "low or high" at 50 to where its normally dead on at 100. I Need to see another Trajectory chart I guess..

Alot of companies zero 1/2 to 1" low at 25 yards on "1" and then put it on the battle setting and its supposed to be on at 100 (from what I hear.)

Seems as if NOT many have tried the 25/200 zero (21m zero actually according to the target)

I'm not sure why you'd want a 200m zero for a 7.62 AK but here is the data for a 300m zero. It's in French but it's basically saying that if your point of impact is 11cm high at 50m you will be dead on at 300m. (Friendly reminder 2.54cm to an inch)

50m   = 11cm high
100m = 23cm high
150m = 29cm
200m = 28cm
250m = 18cm
300m = 0cm
350m = -33cm
400m = -79cm






As another example the AK74 uses a 440m zero, basically 22cm high at 100m will drop the rounds 0cm high at 440m
(74 on top and RPK74 on bottom line)

I do 25m with an AK target.. then go to 100m with it and refine it..

Whoa man, you think way to much about this.    It's simple and doesn't require all the analysis you seem to throw at it.



Nothing fancy here.  It's just easy to get the rifle hitting on paper at 25 first.  The shoot at 50 to make another small tweak.  By the time you start shooting it at the 100m target, it should be very close and just need very minor elevation adjustment.

If you started shooting at 100 and skipped the closer targets.. you may not even be hitting the target, and that makes getting it on paper a huge pain in the ass.  Easier to start at closer ranges.

That's all there is to it.

Well, as you can tell, I'm still on the course of finding the best zero before I take the toys to the range, being Ive yet to find a good outdoor 100 yard range.

I posted recently about the 25/200 zero on the "2" setting being what I wanted to do but I watched "Travis Haleys" DVD and think I may have changed my mind...

Everyone talks about sighting in an AK in at "25m/yards on the '1' (100) setting."

I was under the impression that you THEN had to move it to "Battle Setting" for it to work properly at 100, being I didn't think that 25m on the "1" setting would calibrate the rear sight properly.. Unless I'm viewing this the wrong way, I think I may have been wrong and that 25yd on "1" is basically zeroed at 100 if zeroed a tad low at 25.

Travis Haley initially zeroed his ak at 25 yards on "Battle Setting", then when he showed dummy models with marking, 25-100 was about 4-6" apart... Then he showed the 50 and 100 yard zero's on dummys, the markings for 25, 50, and 100 were ONLY around 2" apart MAX (although he didn't specify which setting, I assume he wasn't showing a 100 yard zero sighted in on the "Battle Setting"...I assume it was the "1 notch/100 setting".)

I've always saw "25yd Zero-Trajectory Charts" show 100 yards being about 4+ inches high but this shows a 100yd zero and 25yds strike being about an inch or 2 below.. Also 50 is even closer.. No clue why if 50 is less than an inch away from 100, that the trajectory changes so much in bullet drop after 150yards..

Can anyone verify these pics as being realistic, and the 25yd zero a bit low equaling a solid 100 yard Zero on "1" setting??

The Red Dot with the Black circle in it has a BIG "Z" for "ZERO, the RED INK is for 7.62x39 and the black ink is for 5.45.



This 25 yard zero below was zeroed on the "Battle Setting", he didn't specify about the others but I assume they were on the "1" setting due to trajectories.





Input needed (besides comments such as, "Take your ass to the range and find out for yourself"..lol)

You may want to check out the information in this thread from m4carbine.net, particularly the holdovers in the post towards the bottom of page one.  Joe Mamma knows what he is talking about.

http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?150274-AK47-zero

HighSpeedSteel

Due to not being GD, my only comment is going to be, wow, that it a whole lotta thinking regarding an AK and zeroing iron sights. Took mine out to the range (an old gravel pit), set up an old pizza box, paced off about 25 yards (oh crap, should I have walked in meters and not yards?), set the rear sight to that funky upsidedown "U", and fired to hit the Hungry Howie's dude. Made some adjustments, namely drifting the front sight, and fired again. Once satisfied with this highly scientific process, I stapled a dessert sized paper plate to a stick, used a rock to hammer said stick into the Earth, and walked back to my makeshift 25yd m firing line, and commenced to kill said confectionary paper product.

You can't science your rifle into zero without shooting it.

My thought process is this:

25/200 zero (rear sight set on the 2), and if you are confident the target is between those two distances, use a 6 o'clock aim position since the apex of the trajectory will hit the target, I like this method since my eyes are bad and it's harder for me as of late to use iron sights

I use the the 50 yd/m zero with rear sight set on "1" since it seems to calibrate the rest of the ranges accordingly. Also using a 6 o'clock hold as suggested in the Russian manual since at 300 yd/m it's easy for the target to get covered by the front post. SIght in at 50 yd/m with sight set on "1" then check zero at 100 yd/m to confirm. Set rear sight to "D", fire at 100 yd/m and rounds should impact 10 inches above POA. Confirm at 300 yd/m if you have the distance to do so.

ETA: Keep in mind that temperature will screw with your zero. If you zeroed when it was cold out, expect your POI to shift when it warms up outside.

Thanks, I trying to Zero when it warms back up but with lower humidity outside than we had this summer in NC.. My Wife has an illness and had no time to zero anything this summer whatsoever.

So when you say a 50 yard zero, thats practically a 100 yard zero right? Seems like you could twist the sight post maybe a 4th of a turn and you would have a "100 yard zero"

I know I've made thing seem harder than they are, its because I want my rear sight to be properly calibrated and the "25 on Battle Setting" will not do that, its just good for shooting people when it all boils down to it..

Again, if I havent said in this thread, My Arsenal SAM7R is said to have outstanding accuracy and a CEO figure went on video saying that he would put it up against any OTHER RIFLE when its comes to accuracy. I know for a fact that it was a "Sales Pitch" but if he said that, it must be pretty damn good honestly.

Also, Ive thought of doing a 6 oclock zero but didn't know if I do a 6 olcock zero on a 1" bullseye at 25, then when I put a 2" bullseye on the target at 50 and a 3" one on at 100 (larger stick on ones for better visibility), if everything will still stay true due to POI below its a different size at each range.

This is a new one, not sure but I know on a 50 yard zero, that 50 and 100 are about the same POA/POI, so it should calibrate the same, but I'd think the user should atleast lower the post a tad (whatever fraction of a turn equals 1/2-1 inch) to make the round's Strike rise a tad more for a true 100yd zero.

Apparently, the popular/NEW Soviet Method: "25yds on 1 setting" shoots 10 inches high at 100yds!!!! Apparently its STRICTLY to aim at a soldiers belt to hit them in the chest. NOT GOOD for target practice.

So what blows my mind is, how at a 100 yard zero (refer to pics I posted), that the 25yd POI is about 2" away...

On the models in the pics on the 100rd Zero, 100yds is 2" above a 25yd Shot, SO shouldn't a 25yd Zero be 2" below a 100yd Shot (in vice versa)???

I starting to think that Travis Haley actually did the 50 & 100yd zero on "Battle Setting", rather than on the "1" like I thought.

It's hard for me to answer your questions because I don't completely understand what you and Travis Haley are saying.  I never watched this video.  But I am fairly sure that with a 25 yard/meter zero, there is no way anyone will hit 10" high at 100 yards/meters unless you move your rear sight to a different setting.

HighSpeedSteel

Yes. I think there's a miscommunication going on here. If you zero at 25m on the 1 setting, your POI at 100m shouldn't be more than an inch or so off of POA. If your rifle is properly zeroed at 100m on the 1 setting, then at 100m you should be roughly 10" high if you use the battle setting. The "aim for the belt buckle" instruction has always been associated with shooting at a target 100m away  using the battle setting because, once zeroed, the Russians kept the rear sight set on the battle setting as their default. That way their rifles were accurate at a greater variety of distances (as in battle) with only an adjustment in holdover.

If you look at the pics I posted above, Travis Haley shows models of different Zeroes with markings.. He initially did the 25 yard one on "Battle Setting" but once he showed the 50, and 100 yard ones, I assumed he put them on the "1" (100m setting on the rear sight) but he never stated if he changed the sight notch or kept it on "Battle Setting" (the D, P, or upside down U Notch) depending on the AK.

The RED markings on the chest showing his 25, 50 and 100's POI are sooooo close together to where 25 yards in on about 2" low in it, but when I went to your link, people who did the "25yds on 1 Setting" Zero said they were hitting 8-10 inches high at 100!! So that makes me think that in the pics above, that Travis Haley did the 50 & 100 yard zero's on the "Battle Setting" also (which is very uncommon, 100yds should be on the "1" setting.)

Yea, I just cleared up the miscommunication in the post above. I was referring to the markings on the pics I posted in this thread.

You can click on this guys link to that forum and read about it and I've also read about it in other places with stories of "25yds on 1 (100 setting)" being 8-10" high on the "1" at 100yds and being better on "Battle Setting"... Some say if you zero 2 inches low at 25yds on the "1" setting, that it'll be close at 100yds (25x4 = 8 inches) so it kinda does makes sense.

Although I've heard your opinion on it also and was ready to do that method, thats why Im confused about all of this, even though all zero's WORK technically, people have different stories about certain ones that throw me off. Its probably the shooter, rifle, or ammo half of the time. (A standing shooter would be my best guess...lol)

I think ultimately, I'm just going to zero it at 50 yards on the "1" setting, and then turn the knob a tad bit (12th to an 8th of an inch either up or down, I think downward being 100 is a tad higher than 50, although it varies chart to chart) but it may end up being dead on at 100, if its not already.  

I'll be using Golden Tiger to zero, then some Brown Bear & WPA to compare trajectories/the "GT" zero... so Im sure the difference will be big after zeroed with Golden Tiger which I hear is ALOT "Hotter" than than most Russian ammo.

Honestly though, Once I check how the factory (Arsenal) zeroed the sights, if 25 yards is zeroed near the "2" by chance, I may just do the 25/200 zero and that is supposed to be dead on at 100 on "1", and also zeroed at 25 & 200 on "2". Guess I just see where how the sights are aligned from the factory and go from there.

This 50 yard zero sounds pretty cool being its less than only an Inch difference than a 100 yard zero (a tiny elevation turn can make it a 100 yard zero quickly IMO.)

I've chrono'd Golden Tiger and other 7.62x39 ammo.  Golden Tiger was definitely not significantly hotter than the others.  It was a little above the average.

I use the 50 yard zero on the "1" setting (which is also a 100 yard zero on "1").  it makes the most sense to me.  I don't plan on adjusting my sights in any kind of stressful situation.  I just know my approximate holdovers.

You may want to try playing around with an online ballistic calculator.  It's very educational.

HighSpeedSteel

On the "1" setting 50 yard zero the bullet crosses the line of sight at 50 and again at 100. So zeroing at 50 will equal a zero at 100 too. This is with the rear sight set to "1", if you then move the rear sight to the BSZ position which corresponds with the "3" setting, then you will see POI shift to 10 inches above POA at 100 yards.  The 10 inch shift in POI at 100 yards (rear sight in BSZ position) will equal hits at 300 yards.

The BSZ setting lets you aim low (belt buckle, 6 o'clock hold, etc.) and still hit a man sized target from 0-300 yards/meters. If you know you're shooting at 100 then put the rear sight on "1"....if you know the range to target is 200 then use "2" and so on. If a groundhog runs across the range at your not sure of the distance..set rear sight to BSZ, aim at the base of him (like bottom of his feet LOL) and fire. You will score a hit most of the time and also be able to spot where the shot landed for any corrections that need to be made.

ok, cool!!

So thats why people say they zero at 25, move to 50 and zero, then CONFIRM at 100...

Being that 100 should be zeroed when your on at 50...

I didnt know that, I wonder if I could then put it on "2" and be on at 25 and 200 also (being if you zero at 25 on "2", if you switch to "1" Setting its supposed to be dead on.)

I know it depends on ammo but 50 yard zero doing a 6 o'clock hold is good with me (I may put the tip of the sight into the bullseye a tad at the bottom of it to to KISS it, but that about it.)

Then again, if I did "Center hold", and lets say 100 may be an inch high with tat ammo, a 6 oclock hold should take care of it.

I guess checking with the ammo and particular rifle is the only way to find out FOR SURE though.

THANKS!!

The bullet crosses always crosses line of sight twice...once at a "near" distance and a second time at a "far" distance, that where the saying 50/100 zero or 25/200 zero comes from.

Aside from temperature variations you should be close at all the other settings on the rear sight leaf. Just keep in mind the AK is calibrated in meters and not yards, it matters the further out you go. Also the Russians use the 6 o'clock hold and BSZ to make sure the target doesn't get covered by the sights, that way if they miss they see where the shot hit and can adjust their fire accordingly. It's also far easier to sit a target ABOVE the front post and get it centered at distances past 100 yds./meters than it is having the target play hide-'n-seek behind the front sight post.  

Good point, I want to do 6 o'clock in zeroing but I think I may be better off doing "center hold/direct hit" at 50 and then 6 oclock at 100yds (incase a "Center Hold" is a little high), plus its way harder to do Center Hold on a 2 or 3" target at 100 so 6 o'clock would be very useful to be able to actually see the target.. Some say 50 and 100 are the same but one guy with a 100 yard zero on the "1" setting posted this test. (Although I know things change rifle to rifle, shooter to shooter, ammo to ammo)

He said:

With my AK already properly zeroed for 100 yards at the 1 setting (with the assumption that 100 yds = 100 m*). I then moved the target to 50 yards and shot with point of aim at dead center of a circle target with the following results.

50 yard results:

Sight set at 1, shots landed 2" low
Sight set at 2, shots landed 4.5" high
Sight set at 3, shots landed 5" high
Sight set at "n" (battle sight setting), shots landed 4" high


If I can find a range with meters or measure it at a friends range after deer season, I will try "50 METERS" (rather than yards) but not sure if 50 and 100 crossover in meters like it does in yards.

Do you know by chance?

You use the 25 yd 'zero' for mainly windage, to get on center, then you adjust the front sight for 1" low. 1" low at 25 puts you on center at 50 and 100. In between 50 and 100, this trajectory will be from 1/2" to 1" high depending on the load you're shooting. All this with rear sight on '1'. At this point your rear sight is indexed at all ranges. If you want to shoot at 200 yds, you put it on '2'.

Sounds great and I will "Indeed" be doing that. Sounds pretty simple!!

Arsenal's manual states that they Bore Sight them at the factory but if the front sight block is canted, Im sure they still leave the windage dead centered but the elevation is probably the closest. The way my front sight is almost lined up (twist wise) but is about an 8th of a turn to where the bottom of the post isnt even (wide), I assume they DID adjust it.

I just hope the Windage is correct.. I hate having AK sights near the bullhorns unless its a cheap AK. Not a high end SAM7R..

Hopefully they atleast spend the extra time to make QC better on them (and hopefully on the SLR-107 also but its a safe queen until the SAM7 is zeroed and proven.)