I have a .308 Saiga that is in a sporter configuration - with no muzzle device, bayonet lug nor pistol grip.  Originally it came with the stock that looks like what you normally see in a standard bolt hunting rifle, but I have since replaced it with the "Dragunov" style stock.  All I have now is the original 8 round magazine that came with it.  My question is, would it be legal for me to use a high capacity magazine with that rifle?

Thanks!

EDITED TO ASK QUESTIONS ABOUT MAK 90:

Does the 922r rule also apply to the MAK90?  I have one with the US made (I think) "Dragunov" stock (originally it came with the thumbhole wood stock) - do I also need to swap some foreign made parts with US made ones before I can use high capacity magazines?  Or....since I already have the US made "Dragunov" stock, by using US made magazine (say TAPCO), I will be in compliance?  But that will make me out of compliance if I use foreign magazine, wouldn't it.

Sorry about all these questions.  I do not know much about AK type weapons (been shooting mostly AR's most of my adult life) and I hate to muck up my MAK / Saiga using parts of questionable quality.

EDIT 2 - the MAK90 came with the wooden thumbhole stock and 5 rounds magazines, with no bayonet lug or any muzzle device.

It will be fine if your state doesn't have some law against it.

Law on US made parts pertains to rifles built in the US using some foreign parts usually parts kits where the frame has been destroyed.

OK, cool.  Thanks.

Incorrect as I understand it.

The only reason it was legal to import the Saiga was because it was considered to be in "sporting configuration." By modifying it to no longer be in sporting configuration (folding stock, pistol grip, high capacity magazine, etc.) it then must comply with 922r. If the stock you put on it already has a pistol grip by my understanding of the law you are no longer in compliance with 922r. Reading is fundamental. Adding a "high-capacity" magazine, whether made in the US or not, would also put you out of compliance with 922r.

This is a decent resource here: http://jobson.us/922r/


ETA: I can't read, apparently.

Use a US mag (3) parts, put one other US part and you should be good to go on an un-converted one.  Install a piston or US front hand guard.

Converting the .308 is easiest of the Saigas.  I just sold one (well it will be sold when it gets picked up.)

If the OP himself installed a pistol grip/buttstock combo, then he changed a sporting weapon into a non sporting weapon, so he must add the US parts. The good news is the hi cap mag is 3 US parts. However, if the OP bought the gun already in non sporting form, then he does not require US parts, as he did not create a non sporting weapon. The previous owner did.  GARY

Some of those Saigas were sold with an imported thumbhole stock.  I've got one.

I don't believe that to be correct.  Doesn't matter if he is the first, second, or third owner of the weapon that was imported in sporting configuration to comply with 922.  It is the weapon that matters and must be 922 compliant.  If the current 'dragonov' stock is US made, then a US made mag will put it in 922 compliance.  If it is a non US stock, which is likely the case since many of these types stocks out there were made by Izhmash in Russia, then the weapon is still going to need 4 US made parts to comply with 922 - mag will count as 3.  US piston is probably the quickest way to bring it to the 4th part needed,

18 U.S.C. § 922(r)

It shall be unlawful for any person to assemble from imported parts any semiautomatic rifle or any shotgun which is identical to any rifle or shotgun prohibited from importation under section 925(d)(3) of this chapter as not being particularly suitable for or readily adaptable to sporting purposes except that this subsection shall not apply to -

(1) the assembly of any such rifle or shotgun for sale or distribution by a licensed manufacturer to the United States or any department or agency thereof or to any State or any department, agency, or political subdivision thereof; or

(2) the assembly of any such rifle or shotgun for the purposes of testing or experimentation authorized by the Attorney General.

N4KVE is correct though I would not risk it.

VO

Since magazine parts count towards the parts for 922r compliance, they could argue that changing a magazine is "assembling" the weapon.

Well I think I stand corrected.  Almost as clear as mud.  

http://www.tapco.com/section922r/

So if the gun was imported in stock sporting form and if the new stock is Russian made,  added on later, and doesn't alter the sporting classification, then it is still compliant.  

More mud:



I believe Saiga 308s need 4 compliant parts when converted out of 'non-sporting' designation - well at least that is how I keep mine, anyway.

My over-taxed brain and the need to stay out of the BATF's cross hairs would have me taking the safe way and still add a US piston (or US handguard) along with a US mag.  Don't have too much faith in the BATF constantly and continually apply the same ruling on compliance from one day to the next.

Pretty tricky.  Getting caught with a miss-interpreted non 922r compliant weapon could cost you ALL your current and future guns if they slap you with a felony violation.

.308 Saigas are so easy for 922r compliance when converted.
Super awesome Csspecs mags = 3 parts



Tapco G2 = 3 parts
You want the Csspecs mags whether you need them for compliance or not, they are better (by a large margin) than anything else out there, including the factory mags.


 

Copy of letter from ATF on this subject. Note #2, & #3.  GARY
Dear MX. XXXXX:

This is in response to your recent correspondence to the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives(ATF), Firearms Technology Branch (FTB) asking several questions with respect to 18 U.S.C. 922(r) and its implementing regulation, 2TC FR 478.39. (Please note that your letter was forwarded to FTB's new location in Martinsburg, West Virginia.) Your questions are listed below in italics, each followed by our answers, which are in bullets.

1. What is ATF's definition of "assembly" as it applies to 922(r)?

The meaning of "assemble" or "assembly''as it applies to 922(r) shall be the same as the word is generally known and used.

2. Does ATF consider routine maintenance, such as the removal and replacement of parts for cleaning, or the removal and insertion of magazines to constitute "assembly"?

The removal and re-installing of parts for cleaning and routine maintenance would not constitute assembly for the purpose of $ 922(r), as long as none of the original parts are substituted with replacement or additional parts.

3. Would a person incur criminal liability by the purchase and possession of a second-hand firearm which was determined not to be in compliance with 922(r), even though the assembly of saidfirearm was performed bl,someone other than the buyer, and the buyer had no way to verify the legality of that assembly?

18 U.S.C. 5 922(r)a ppliest o the act of assembly per se, not mere possession of the assembled firearm.

4. If a person were to be criminally charged with a violation of $ 922(r), on whom would the burden of proof lie, and what standard of proof would be required to establish guilt or innocence?

All persons are considered innocent until proven guilty; thereforet, the "burden of proof" in any criminal case lies with the Government. The burden of proof to establish "guilt" has long been codified by legal precedent in U.S. Courts. We recommend you seek the
guidance of legal counsel for a detailed explanation of this standard.

5. What is ATF's procedure for determining whether a given firearm is in compliance with 922(r), given that the absence of a mark indicating the origin of a part is insufficient to draw any firm conclusion about the part's origin, foreign or domestic?

Every method possible is utilized in identifying the origin of manufacture of a firearm part during an investigation involving a suspected violation of 922(r). Each such
review must be taken on a case-by-case basis and may necessitate evaluation of such things as: design characteristics, markings (or lack thereof), and associate documents and/or statements.

We thank you for your inquiry and turst you find our answers responsive.

Sincerely yours,

John R. Spencer
Chief, Firearms Technology Branch

OK, I think I'm just going to forget about the high capacity magazine for now and start shopping for US made parts first.  I'd like to express my foremost gratitude to all of you for spending so much time providing me with these valuable information.

You can use hicaps in MAK90's, it was imported capable of using them.  It wasn't until rifles that were imported after 1998 that BATF changed the rules affecting hicaps in rifles with thumbhole stocks.  B-West was selling hicap capable Saigas around 1992 in stock configuration.

!@#$% it!  I got the MAK from a trade more than a decade ago.....not sure when it was imported.  All I know is that it came with the thumbhole stock.  Actually, I am not even sure if it came with the 5 rounds mags or not.  Bleigh me!  I think I will just have to face the music and convert my MAK and Saiga to 922r compliance just to avoid all of these "can I" questions.  I hate to change the FCG on the MAK, though.  I'm going to the Chinese AK section to see if I can convert the MAK to meet the 922r without changing the FCG.

I want to thank all of you once more for the very informative, helpful replies.  You guys are the best.

Chinese rifle were banned from import during Clinton's administration.  They came in from the end of 1989 until around 1994.  Prior to around September of 1989 they were considered pre-ban requiring no modifications at all.

U.S. Magazine baseplates, U.S. followers, Ironwood Designs 3 piece stock set, US gas piston will get you the compliance parts without changing out FCG..

Ahhh.....I see.  Since MAK90's were imported prior to 1998 (when the ATF changed the rule regarding the use of high cap mags in rifles with a thumbhole stock), it (MAK90) can be considered as "grandfathered" or something to that effect.  I got it.  THANKS!

That ain't going to fly with ATF in the rare event you are being prosecuted. They don't give a F who converted it. The person in possession gets the red hot stoker.

Wrong. Pertains to weapons modified from the approved imported platform.

You obviously did not read #3 in the ATF letter I posted above.  And should anyone be prosecuted for a 922 infraction, they have much more serious problems to worry about. Like the kilo of nose candy, or the illegal machine gun they were found with. No one, on this forum has been, or knows anybody who was prosecuted because they were a US part short in the count. Take off the thumbhole stock, add US parts. Buy it that way, no worries. Read the letter. GARY

No doubt that letter and $10,000 in attorney fees will get the charges tossed out if you agree to forfeiture of all firearms and being blacklisted on the national register. Good luck.

System Message