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Posted: 10/1/2013 12:01:35 PM EDT
The guys a Krebs Custom and Definitive Arms have teamed up to make a rifle they called the AK-15, but I call it "The Sexy". If you don't like this, you probably don't have a pulse.

Link Posted: 10/1/2013 12:19:50 PM EDT
I just don't get it. It takes the some of the worst parts of the AR and accentuates the weak parts of the AK.
Link Posted: 10/1/2013 12:20:19 PM EDT
I like it. I would change out the pistol grip, but otherwise I'm good with it.
Link Posted: 10/1/2013 12:27:14 PM EDT
Still no 6.5 huh?
Link Posted: 10/1/2013 12:28:52 PM EDT
mhe. Most of what Mark comes up with I like, this not so much. My disdain for keymod rails probably doesn't help either.
Link Posted: 10/1/2013 12:58:18 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/1/2013 12:59:36 PM EDT by kmb147]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By nictra:
mhe. Most of what Mark comes up with I like, this not so much. My disdain for keymod rails probably doesn't help either.
View Quote


+1

Not a fan of the look of kemod rails or DA conversion.
Link Posted: 10/1/2013 1:28:36 PM EDT
It marries good qualities of both rifles. The simple robust operating system of the AK with the ease of changing mags from the AR. Also using AR mags you don't have the eternal quest of finding 5.56 AK mags and then paying out the nose for them. Krebs makes awesome rifles but I would expect a high price tag. I'm not saying AK's are cheap rifles but Krebs just makes expensive rifles, but they sure are nice!
Link Posted: 10/1/2013 2:00:04 PM EDT
Do not want
Link Posted: 10/1/2013 2:42:11 PM EDT
Not Feeling this one AT ALL...
Link Posted: 10/1/2013 2:54:16 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/1/2013 2:55:17 PM EDT by fatcat4620]
Link Posted: 10/1/2013 3:27:55 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/1/2013 5:23:47 PM EDT by thornejc]
I'm glad to see that i'm not alone here. I think krebs makes good shit but definitely not feeling this one. I feel like someone got an AK and looked at it and said "you aren't good enough... you need to be more like an AR." I have kinda shunned AK purists as not being realistic but i wanted to cry when i saw that thing. I felt sorry for the AK that had to endure that brutal transformation. I really don't even care to hear how much this thing is going to cost.... Definitive arms is going to give you a limited time deal of $560 for the magwell conversion, refinish, and return shipping and judging by the price of the Krebs KV-13 ($1850), you could buy a KAC or Noveske for around the same price. I feel like you would have to REALLY love AKs to consider spending that much money on a converted Saiga 223, and if you really love AKs, you probably hate seeing shit like this done to one. I'm sure its a great rifle and i'm sure everything functions well but it just is not something i care to own.
Link Posted: 10/1/2013 4:54:11 PM EDT
I like the Krebs rifles, I like the AR, I love the AK. If I wanted to shoot a the ar round through the ak platform for reliability I think I would just get the HK416 or Sig 556. Just my opinion.
Link Posted: 10/1/2013 5:32:41 PM EDT
$2500?

I'll pass
Link Posted: 10/1/2013 5:46:41 PM EDT
SWEET
Link Posted: 10/1/2013 5:54:02 PM EDT
For what they are asking.

I can think of three rifles I'd get over it in 5.56 and have a MUCH better gun.

- KAC SR15 with ap micro
- predatAR (larue) with ap micro
- BCM EAG carbine with ap micro

Just don't see the point in a $2000+ 5.56 weapon that can't do what others in the price range can.

And I'm an AK die hard above all.
Link Posted: 10/1/2013 6:38:53 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/1/2013 6:43:34 PM EDT
Strange, I love this thing -- alot. Most of the guys that have seen it love it... but here on an AK forum everyone dislikes it.
Link Posted: 10/1/2013 6:47:25 PM EDT
I want that rifle but in 5.45. I've got ARs and an AUG for 5.56.
Link Posted: 10/1/2013 6:48:55 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/1/2013 6:59:06 PM EDT by Dragynn]
2500? you gotta be shittin' me. Looks like somebody had a bunch of leftover parts and way too much time on their hands. cripes, where's the shovel AK?

I like the tube and magpul stock, good combo, grip is meh, don't know what people see in Tapco saw grips and i'm sure not paying 2500 for a rifle that has one on it. Magwell is a bunch of overpriced gadgety hoo-ha, rifle shouldn't be chambered in .223 to start with. I hate flash suppresors that are significantly wider in OD than the barrel, not sure why this gets done so much either, looks like ass.

I don't hate the rail, at least it's square, doesn't have a big obvious gap where it meets the receiver like a number of other rails touted hereabouts...i'm afraid to ask how much it costs, that's what will probably tip the scales to pure disdain...and slots would look better than the keyhole stuff.
Link Posted: 10/1/2013 6:53:09 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Hizzie:
Still no 6.5 huh?
View Quote



If that thing becomes available in 6.5 Grendel,
I'll order one, hell.. I may order two..!!!




Link Posted: 10/1/2013 6:56:10 PM EDT
Oif, amazingly the only thing they managed to do was make the gun so expensive that it outstrips just about all the savings of being able to use cheaper and more flawed mags.

I also have no idea why people keep putting AR carbine style stocks on AK's. You don't need a buffer tube, so why am I being stuck with that length when the carbine stock is "closed" that I would not get from a folder.

Uhhhh
Link Posted: 10/1/2013 6:59:04 PM EDT
Not a bad looking rifle.
I really like the design of the Definitive Arms magazine well for the Saigas,but I'm not a fan of of AR stocks on anything but AR's also don't care for keymod rails.
Link Posted: 10/1/2013 7:05:06 PM EDT
I think it's pretty interesting, though I'm sure the price will turn alot of people away.
Link Posted: 10/1/2013 7:46:35 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/1/2013 7:47:45 PM EDT by FightingHellfish]
Lets pretty damn good to me, but I'm a lot smarter than most of you guys.

Link Posted: 10/1/2013 8:04:56 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/1/2013 8:07:20 PM EDT by thornejc]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By MilitaryArms:
Strange, I love this thing -- alot. Most of the guys that have seen it love it... but here on an AK forum everyone dislikes it.
View Quote


It isn't hideously ugly, i'm sure it is a quality piece, and I trust your opinion on it, but it just seems really out of place. It is like one of those Uberti 1873 revolver carbines... the AK-15 seems like it mixes the two in a way that over complicates a rifle valued for its simplicity in a way that gives you a marginal increase in efficiency (depending on how good you are at doing reloads with your AK) for a substantial increase in complexity (not that it is mind-boggling... but the rifle is definitely heavily modified), proprietary parts, and price. The idea is kinda cool, but the application just doesn't really "hit the bullseye" (for lack of better terminology) IMHO.
Link Posted: 10/1/2013 8:23:23 PM EDT
Looks like they teamed up with Cheaper than Dirt lol gay
Link Posted: 10/2/2013 12:08:46 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/2/2013 12:44:12 AM EDT by sdrake100]
It's definitely a nice rifle. I like the concepts involved, although it still feels "tacked on" and natively unrefined. I think we've reached a point where AK rifles can't really be improved on much further without a complete redesign, something the AK-12 and other variants (sig, galil, valmet, insas) have tried to address with limited success. And trying to turn it into an AR is moot because, well, we have access to high quality AR's. That's why Kalashnikov rifles shine when shooting 7.62x39 and 5.45x39, as it was designed around those particular calibers. I'm in favor of letting the AK be what it is, with limited modifications to meet end-user requirements. Any further work means less accessibility for the typical AK owner with limited tools and resources, and cost reaching prohibitive levels, when in this case, there are lots of options across the aisle in the AR world.

That's why I don't understand the appeal of the .223 caliber in Kalashnikov rifles. It's nice that Definitive Arms developed the AR magwell/adapter, but the cost of the rifle offsets any cost saving in the use of AR magazines. Not to mention the relatively higher cost of ammo (although 5.45 isn't too far behind). I understand its use in former soviet-bloc countries who have joined NATO, like Poland and Bulgaria. If we're talking about reliability, there's lots of evidence to suggest that either rifle platform is reliable enough under combat situations. What's left is the cool factor, and I can't really argue with someone who thinks something is "cool" outside of hard data, suggesting an emotional attachment or significance.

It really comes down to which type of rifle is the superior .223/5.56 slinging platform. In America, the AR is very popular, and its prevalence, modularity, and parts availability indicates its superiority over the AK in this particular caliber. When cost and value is added into this particular equation, I think the AR > Krebs AK is a no brainer.

I still appreciate you sharing your thoughts and enthusiasm. I guess I never understood the appeal of 5.56 AK's trying to be AR's, when I could get a lot more bang for my buck with a typical AR. I certainly understand the appeal of the AK action mated to the best features of the AR to create some sort of hybrid, but then that pushes the boundaries between practicality and "cool", underlined by cost. I apologize for my long-winded comment.
Link Posted: 10/2/2013 1:42:16 AM EDT
I love the AK operating system, but I'm not a fan of the safety and sight setup of traditional AK's. My Galil's and Daewoo's are about as AK as I get.

If they wanted to make it more "AR", I'd say:

-Ditch the Tapco grip. I can't help but associate it with the word "cheap". Give it mounting options for AR grips.
-Give it an apeture sight system with a longer radius. AK sights suck. Period.
-I'm shooting a 5.56. At least give me the option of a longer barrel, 18-20 inches. And thread it 1/2x28.

Do that, and I'd shell out a hefty sum.
Link Posted: 10/2/2013 2:03:50 AM EDT
Link Posted: 10/2/2013 4:31:27 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/2/2013 4:37:48 AM EDT by StephenNW]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By MilitaryArms:
Strange, I love this thing -- alot. Most of the guys that have seen it love it... but here on an AK forum everyone dislikes it.
View Quote


How much did you (or would you) pay for it? Your blog post vaguely says you "picked one up", but didn't mention the financial arrangements under which you picked it up.

I bring this up because if I got this rifle for free, at a significant discount, or as a free loaner for awhile, I would like it a lot too! But if I was asked to pay $2,000+ for it, all of a sudden I would need a much better explanation of what this gun can do that any of the very high-quality $2,000+ AR's can't do. (Not to mention the SIGS, Valmets, Daewoo's, Galil's, or other guns that start to become available in this price range.)

I have no problem paying top-dollar for a rifle either, as long as I can justify the purchase by the gun being capable of doing something that other guns in that price range can't do, potential resale value, or any other factors that - to me - provide a suitable answer to the value equation.

I just don't see that answer with this particular gun.
Link Posted: 10/2/2013 4:38:01 AM EDT
I really wish they would bring back the KTRs, those were cool rifles!
Link Posted: 10/2/2013 4:41:59 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/3/2013 5:04:51 AM EDT by Veprk762]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History


^ Now this is SEXY!

The Krebs not so much, the keymod rail is as UGLY as it gets.

Edit I love my Krebs Vepr k w/plum furniture
Link Posted: 10/2/2013 5:11:13 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/2/2013 5:13:59 AM EDT by fatcat4620]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Veprk762:


^ Now this is SEXY!

The Krebs not so much, the keymod rail is as UGLY as it gets.

View Quote View All Quotes
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Veprk762:


^ Now this is SEXY!

The Krebs not so much, the keymod rail is as UGLY as it gets.


It's also cheaper and more refined. I would however like to see a head to head against the two. MAC, is this possible?
Link Posted: 10/2/2013 5:51:25 AM EDT
This rifle does nothing that an AK setup (or AR15, or Sig, or...) for half the cost couldn't do as well, practically speaking, nor is it anything "new" - a quick trip to the photo threads here will show rifles like this going back a few years. An AR15 magwell with bold hold open is nifty, but the overall cost of the rifle negates the point of cheaper AR15 mags, not to mention the higher cost of 5.56. Having a similar manual of arms to an AR15 is nice, but that's why I bought an AR15. I'm certainly no AK purist since mine has a Magpul stock, TWS hinged top cover, and Hogue grip. But this rifle just doesn't 'smell right'. That long huge rail is absolutely pointless and I can't imagine how front heavy it would be with doodads and things attached to it.

As a fan of the Military Arms Channel going all the way back to the beginning, I'm actually quite shocked to see Tim pimp this thing as the "Ultimate AK". This is a 'concept car' and nothing more.
Link Posted: 10/2/2013 6:02:05 AM EDT
I am on the fences about it. I would like to see a reliability and accuracy test with this vs a Colt 6920. Since it is trying to be an AR in an AK platform I think the test ought to prove why it is an improvement and not a gimmick. I want to like it, I really do, but unless it is just there for the collector(which would be fine) trying to add to his safe, I think it needs to prove itself.
Link Posted: 10/2/2013 6:15:00 AM EDT
Meh, its a nice stick but its not for me. I think its more of a "game changer" than the sam7 though.
Link Posted: 10/2/2013 6:20:42 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By mech4matsnova:
Meh, its a nice stick but its not for me. I think its more of a "game changer" than the sam7 though.
View Quote


truth!
Link Posted: 10/2/2013 7:26:09 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/2/2013 7:26:20 AM EDT by Finslayer83]
For the price they are asking, you could get one of the best 5.56 production rifles made, as noted above.

This complete setup for the same price.

Link Posted: 10/2/2013 8:58:38 AM EDT
For a $2500 rifle, you'd think Krebs could've included their AK rear sight rail and one of the new Magpul AK PGs as well; it could use a more expensive AR type buttstock like a UBR to justify the price.
Link Posted: 10/2/2013 10:47:06 AM EDT
Too much for an AK. I would rather buy a Saiga in 223 and convert it myself for half the price.
Link Posted: 10/2/2013 12:33:15 PM EDT
I have to agree with the other posters - it's not clear to me who is the intended audience for this rifle? It must be somebody who fits into three very distinct categories:
1) Must have an AK - no other rifle will do
2) Wants advanced ergonomic features
3) Has considerable cash to spend on 1&2.

Not a whole lot of people fit all 3 criteria. I know that Mark is a "boutique" gun maker, so he doesn't need to sell hundreds or thousands of these to be successful, but this model has little to recommend it for vast majority of gun owners.

Link Posted: 10/2/2013 12:34:03 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Finslayer83:
For the price they are asking, you could get one of the best 5.56 production rifles made, as noted above.

This complete setup for the same price.

http://s16.postimg.org/w7rekf8n9/SR15.jpg
View Quote


My next AR is going to be a KAC. Those things are beautiful.
Link Posted: 10/2/2013 12:39:37 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By StephenNW:


How much did you (or would you) pay for it? Your blog post vaguely says you "picked one up", but didn't mention the financial arrangements under which you picked it up.

I bring this up because if I got this rifle for free, at a significant discount, or as a free loaner for awhile, I would like it a lot too! But if I was asked to pay $2,000+ for it, all of a sudden I would need a much better explanation of what this gun can do that any of the very high-quality $2,000+ AR's can't do. (Not to mention the SIGS, Valmets, Daewoo's, Galil's, or other guns that start to become available in this price range.)

I have no problem paying top-dollar for a rifle either, as long as I can justify the purchase by the gun being capable of doing something that other guns in that price range can't do, potential resale value, or any other factors that - to me - provide a suitable answer to the value equation.

I just don't see that answer with this particular gun.
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By StephenNW:
Originally Posted By MilitaryArms:
Strange, I love this thing -- alot. Most of the guys that have seen it love it... but here on an AK forum everyone dislikes it.


How much did you (or would you) pay for it? Your blog post vaguely says you "picked one up", but didn't mention the financial arrangements under which you picked it up.

I bring this up because if I got this rifle for free, at a significant discount, or as a free loaner for awhile, I would like it a lot too! But if I was asked to pay $2,000+ for it, all of a sudden I would need a much better explanation of what this gun can do that any of the very high-quality $2,000+ AR's can't do. (Not to mention the SIGS, Valmets, Daewoo's, Galil's, or other guns that start to become available in this price range.)

I have no problem paying top-dollar for a rifle either, as long as I can justify the purchase by the gun being capable of doing something that other guns in that price range can't do, potential resale value, or any other factors that - to me - provide a suitable answer to the value equation.

I just don't see that answer with this particular gun.


Really good point. Would appreciate an answer on this one. It's a nice rifle, but I'd like to understand the auspices behind your endorsement.
Link Posted: 10/2/2013 12:58:19 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/2/2013 12:58:59 PM EDT by MilitaryArms]
The rifle is mine to use for evaluation (as I mention it's a prototype which means one of a kind, or very rare). I've asked Marc to buy it, but if you know Marc he doesn't like to part with his prototypes. At worst I will have to send it back, at best I can buy it for a yet to be negotiated price.

If you're questioning my objectivity, the fact I'm wanting to buy it and am currently in the arm twisting phase of the negotiations should tell you something.

I like it.

I even went and bought a H1 Micro for it today over lunch. If I can't have it I'm going to be bummed.
Link Posted: 10/2/2013 1:04:02 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Finslayer83:
For the price they are asking, you could get one of the best 5.56 production rifles made, as noted above.

This complete setup for the same price.

http://s16.postimg.org/w7rekf8n9/SR15.jpg
View Quote
One of a million just like it... blah.

I'm surprised I have to explain this to people on this side of the house, but here I go again.

Why is it ok to spend $2000+ on a high-end AR but if you spend the same on a custom AK it's some sort of sacrilege? What is it with the notion AK's should be stuck in the 1940's while the AR continues to evolve?
Link Posted: 10/2/2013 1:11:05 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By MilitaryArms:

I'm surprised I have to explain this to people on this side of the house, but here I go again.


View Quote


That's more than a little condescending, i'd be willing to bet Finslayer at minimum knows as much as you about AK's, and what's more, his reviews are not colored by agenda, hard to take yours seriously for that reason, especially after that "game-changer" fiasco.
Link Posted: 10/2/2013 1:28:59 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By MilitaryArms:
Why is it ok to spend $2000+ on a high-end AR but if you spend the same on a custom AK it's some sort of sacrilege? What is it with the notion AK's should be stuck in the 1940's while the AR continues to evolve?
View Quote


Because this custom AK doesn't offer $2000 (likely more) worth of rifle compared to what already exists on the market. My tacticool AK certainly isn't stuck in the Soviet era, and I got the same real-world capability including an Aimpoint optic and it still came out hundreds less.

it's not about looks or furniture - it's all about the price vs. what you get. I just don't see it with this design. By the rifle's own name, this gun is specifically designed to emulate the AR-15, so as others have suggested, why not just go for the AR-15 and save $1000? I just can't see this thing being anything else other than a novelty item.
Link Posted: 10/2/2013 1:41:03 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By MilitaryArms:
One of a million just like it... blah.

I'm surprised I have to explain this to people on this side of the house, but here I go again.

Why is it ok to spend $2000+ on a high-end AR but if you spend the same on a custom AK it's some sort of sacrilege? What is it with the notion AK's should be stuck in the 1940's while the AR continues to evolve?
View Quote View All Quotes
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By MilitaryArms:
Originally Posted By Finslayer83:
For the price they are asking, you could get one of the best 5.56 production rifles made, as noted above.

This complete setup for the same price.

http://s16.postimg.org/w7rekf8n9/SR15.jpg
One of a million just like it... blah.

I'm surprised I have to explain this to people on this side of the house, but here I go again.

Why is it ok to spend $2000+ on a high-end AR but if you spend the same on a custom AK it's some sort of sacrilege? What is it with the notion AK's should be stuck in the 1940's while the AR continues to evolve?


You did a series about that relating to the SAM7-SF, but it's not about the rifle, it's the caliber/cost equation when compared to the AR. I have no objections paying $$$ for rifles in 7.62x39 or 5.45x39, or modifying them. The reason why .223 AK's aren't more popular comes down to pure cost vs. features. The ability to use AR magazines would soften that hurdle, but then we're needing to pay a middleman for the modification. It has nothing to do with an antiquated view of the AK. Actually, I think we have some of the most progressive views about the AK in comparison with other forums.

If you can validate why you endorse it, other than it's "cool" and "you like it", then we're talking about hard data. Maybe a reliability or accuracy test. For the average consumer without industry connections, $2000 is hard to swallow for a .223 AK when those features can be found in a $1200 AR-15. If you can definitively say that it's better than the AR-15, I'm sure this rifle will sell fine, but it sounds like your current endorsement and enthusiasm comes from somewhere other than practicality; something that a lot of average consumers cannot share.
Link Posted: 10/2/2013 2:07:33 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By sdrake100:
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Originally Posted By sdrake100:
You did a series about that relating to the SAM7-SF, but it's not about the rifle, it's the caliber/cost equation when compared to the AR. I have no objections paying $$$ for rifles in 7.62x39 or 5.45x39, or modifying them. The reason why .223 AK's aren't more popular comes down to pure cost vs. features. The ability to use AR magazines would soften that hurdle, but then we're needing to pay a middleman for the modification. It has nothing to do with an antiquated view of the AK. Actually, I think we have some of the most progressive views about the AK in comparison with other forums.If you can validate why you endorse it, other than it's "cool" and "you like it", then we're talking about hard data. Maybe a reliability or accuracy test. For the average consumer without industry connections, $2000 is hard to swallow for a .223 AK when those features can be found in a $1200 AR-15. If you can definitively say that it's better than the AR-15, I'm sure this rifle will sell fine, but it sounds like your current endorsement and enthusiasm comes from somewhere other than practicality; something that a lot of average consumers cannot share.
Fortunately for you, it's not available yet -- and it may never be available. There's no pill for you to swallow.

Since when has owning firearms been an exercise in practicality for most of the guys here with 10+ guns in their safe?

As for accuracy and other functional aspects, that will be covered in a video.
Link Posted: 10/2/2013 2:08:19 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/2/2013 2:09:17 PM EDT by MilitaryArms]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Dragynn:


That's more than a little condescending, i'd be willing to bet Finslayer at minimum knows as much as you about AK's, and what's more, his reviews are not colored by agenda, hard to take yours seriously for that reason, especially after that "game-changer" fiasco.
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Originally Posted By Dragynn:
Originally Posted By MilitaryArms:

I'm surprised I have to explain this to people on this side of the house, but here I go again.




That's more than a little condescending, i'd be willing to bet Finslayer at minimum knows as much as you about AK's, and what's more, his reviews are not colored by agenda, hard to take yours seriously for that reason, especially after that "game-changer" fiasco.
Oh no, you don't take me seriously? I'm crushed.

Condescending? Pot meet kettle.
Link Posted: 10/2/2013 2:26:36 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/2/2013 2:26:51 PM EDT by nictra]
gets your panties unbunched man. 99% of the time people praise whatever you put up and review. Taking criticism is part of the game.

I'd prefer Mark bring back the KTR, as I already stated. I think this rifle is a move in the wrong direction. To me the KTRs offered much more in looks and in ergonomics.
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