dude please DONT compare Arsenal shitty finish with Marc's custom bake on goodness...

he refinished many rifles for me over time, and none of them yet show serious wear. once again apples and oranges

Actually the KAC's are not like the other million AR's, they have completely different bolt and gas system designs.

If I'm spending $2,000 on a a custom AK its going to be a turbo re-weld that gets sent to Mario for engraving and finishing.

But $2,000+ for a saiga conversion? I'f we are talking 5.56 AK's, a budget of $2k+, and the ability to use AR mags:
- SLR-106CR --> $1,000
- NFA stamp --> $200
- DA adatper -> $600

You are at $1800-1900 and have a rifle that performs the same, but has a better stock system and more compact.

Again, its all about what you like, but I wouldn't buy the rifle in question for $2500.

Can you cerakote your Arsenal for less than $1300?
If so, and you prefer the Arsenal over the Krebs AK15, then you're money ahead.

I'll be honest with myself, I do prefer the US PALM grip.  

 

Regardless of the opinions in this thread on said rifle, we all want to see the video review of it.

millions of people according to their sales figures. And the point, which it looks like you missed by a wide margin, is that even the mildest and most common of cleaners removes the finish.

I use Hoppe's # 9, what's wrong with it? Works fine, there's only so clean you can get, once the metal is squeaky shiny clean, it's clean, there's no doing any better really, so what's your point if you even had one?

Point well taken. Here's another: No one should HAVE to immediately take a 1300-1400 rifle apart and spend a bunch of money on an expensive re-finish before they can even use it.

drag, you and I see eye to eye on most things, but I will have to somewhat disagree with you on this one. I have several Arsenals that have never had to receive a repaint. I only use CLP on my weapons unless I am using a bore scrubber or copper solvent in the barrel. I have only 1 claim on the net (I don't go looking for what it's worth) that said their finish came off using CLP.



On the flip side, I do agree that it would be nice (especially for the price) if the finish was a bit more durable.

There you go again.  Don't lie/exaggerate.  Thousands and thousands of Arsenal/FIME rifles are out there and holding up just fine.  Treat them right, clean them right and the finish will last a life time.

If you feel like you HAVE to refinish your rifle before using it, you're doing something wrong.

I have a couple of well-used Arsenals that have always been cleaned with CLP (just like the owner's manual says to use).  CLP cleans the rifle fine, and these rifles still look fine.  You've stated you don't own one, so I guess you could be excused for not knowing this.

ETA: I see two other people beat me to my point.

Lol, you just channeled Reagan and that gave me a flashback, I'm old enough to remember that debate and watched him utter those words.....<sigh>....good times, could really use him about now in this country.

Nice to hear from you as always Ted.

Okay, you may be correct on most Arsenals, but the guy on here is not the only report i've seen of a sub-par finish.

And as to Hoppe's #9, i've been using it for 40 years, CLP stands for "cleaner, lubricant,protectant", it was designed as a field expedient method of cleaning and lubing a rifle so you didn't have to carry multiple liquids, it's not really a substitute for properly cleaning, then degreasing, then re-lubing a firearm.

I recently sold a rifle, and the guy brought a really nice bore-light and had a real "i'm gonna go over this with a fine-tooth comb and if it sucks lowball the crap out of you" attitude, after a thorough inspection, he just shook his head, and asked me what my cleaning regimen was and would I please e-mail him details because he had never seen a used rifle with a bore and internals that clean and perfect.

I used to shoot USPSA, and as a result re-loaded and shot a minimum of 300 rounds 3 times a week for practice, CLP may be great after you run a few rounds out at a casual range session, but it doesn't do shit when you are shooting 4000 rounds of lead a month, that's where my ideas of what works and doesn't work as far as cleaning goes originated, and I see no reason to start being sloppy now as I enjoy taking my firearms down and doing a thorough leisurely cleaning on them after a visit to the range instead of just a quick brush-and-mop.

For what it's worth, I drown my Arsenal SGL 31 with Hoppes #9 everytime I clean it and have not seen any finish wear due to Hoppes.



I even purposely put some on my brake to see just how destructive it is to the finish. I let it sit for 20 minutes, and nothing.



Original finish.

Your welcome.  i have been ignoring your Arsenal/FIME rants lately but that one was so far from reality I felt compelled to reply.

I can tell you from personal experience that the U.S. Army would disagree with your views on CLP.  

CLP was born from Army PD-48, a purchase description for a cleaner, lubricant and protectant that would be suitable for heavy use weapons.  It's literally the only thing we ever used to clean our M-16's, and it worked just fine.

You may need to use something stronger if you're actually shooting 4,000 rounds/month out of a single weapon, but given that 4,000 rounds per month is between $1,000-$2,000 in ammo alone, I suspect very few people shoot that much and would require that stronger treatment.

Gallons upon gallons of that stuff! Every time I spray my rifle down it takes me back.



 

Very few civilians "require" an AR or other semi-automatic rifle, but that's not really the point is it? A car doesn't "need" synthetic oil, but they run cleaner and last longer on it.

I can't begin to count the number of firearms that I have bought, that people who don't properly care for their guns, shitted up completely, didn't clean properly, and then blamed normal wear when their guns started to malfunction and groups opened up, they just dump 'em cheap, buy a new gun, and start shitting on it. I guarantee you 90% of the armchair quarterbacks on this site alone, don't own a bore light and never have. Yet they hold forth and parrot what they've heard like they themselves thought it up. I can also guarantee you, that 90% of their firearms, I can go run a wet patch through right now, and it will come out dirty.

There is a reason my cars and trucks always run and well. Firearms too, and in fact, everything I put my hand to. I do it right, the first time. This country has as a whole, gone the path of the quick, dirty, and disposable. Sorry, that's not how i'm wired, but it's not heresy, and it's not incorrect, and i'm not a jerk for posting the truth as I have seen it in practice in over 4 decades of shooting.

And i'm not alone, my mentor has over 5 decades building guns, and builds some of the finest most accurate firearms in the world, and most of the advanced knowledge I have, came from him, my RV is parked in his backyard, I work on guns  every. single. day.

All my friends in the Army, use CLP while on duty if they need to clean their weapon, they all use the same cleaning regimen I do on their personal firearms.

Different protocol for different circumstances, whole lotta people hereabouts that are not in the .mil, think that everything the .mil does is gospel and applies to them too, and that's just ridiculous, even more ridiculous when groupthink turns it into something on the order of heresy if you post a differing opinion.

We used to reload .45 acp for about 5-6 bucks 100 rds, so 4000 rounds a month is more like 200 bucks, and that was very do-able even in 1990's dollars. Just six months of that if you can afford it, will make a person quite a different shottist.

OK, I guess.

Yup, every time I just smell Break-free I'm reminded of Ft. Irwin.  And a particular 1SG I didn't like who I swear showered with the stuff.

twice as much as a Krebs KTR-03 .........

Sorry, didn't mean to jack the thread off-topic into a cleaning discussion. I'll lay off now.

Yeah, I'm looking forward to the video review.

I've recently been thinking about buying a nicer AR (most likely an AR, anyway).  Something of the 5.56 piston variety.  I have a Ruger SR-556c and I love everything about that rifle other than the horrible stock trigger. (Gun reviewers often kindly refer to such triggers as "combat-grade", which is code for "this trigger sucks".)   But I've also been looking at the Sig 516 & 551-A1 (and possibly the SBR version), PWS MK1 and LWRC M6-SL.  All of these rifles are hundreds less than what the AK-15 would presumably sell for, so I guess I'd be interested in hearing what advantages - if any - the AK-15 might have over those.  

I do generally prefer AK's, and the AK-15 is different for sure.  It's just that in this price range, being different isn't enough.  This is a souped-up, $350-$500 Saiga being sold for $2,000+.  It would need to do something amazing, and preferably something it's competition couldn't do, to justify the price.

When my daughter was smaller she heard my wife complain about me smelling like CLP, so she'd tell me I smelled like seal pee.

Completely off topic, but i do own LWRC M6-SL and i went through Travis Haley class with it without even 1 malfunction...PM me if you have any questions about this rifle...since i strongly believe in piston driven rifles, LWRC was an easy choice...lol.

Tough to say as I don't have an AK-15 at my disposal.    But, I can definitively say the KV-13 is the nicest 7.62 AK variant I've laid my hands on to date.

Sorry for the crappy cell phone photos but it'll have to do for now.  It should get the general point across though.  

The real genius is the way Krebs used a combination of welded plates and strategic milling on the end of the spring to get the top cover to retail zero---It really is one of those "why didn't anyone think of this earlier" things.

Someone did think of it earlier; Valmets and Galils.

Yep, the KV-13 is a great shooter...

Touche'.  

I was referring to a US custom shop but you win this round

Thanks, brother.  That helps me to understand how it was done. I know Marc wouldn't do anything half-assed, but looking at the promo pics I couldn't figure out how he got the top cover to remain solidly placed and able to maintain zero.

We need to get together to do some photography, given how close we are and all.

 

That's until you shoot this AK15, then you'll want it and will walk over your KV-13 to get to it.  

 

Its definately a better sight arrangement, don't know why more don't do it.

Most certainly! And you need to show me how to edit video.

What miling on the end of the spring?

I don't recall seeing any on my KV-13.

Now that Tim and the forum has made nice and had make-up posting, I'd just like to encourage Tim to never, ever, ever again, use the term "the sexy" in public.  I don't care if you are a Kentucky Colonel, that shit would've got you in a fist fight back when you were just a Lance Corporal and it still ain't right.

You're just jealous.  Of what, I don't know exactly... but I'm sure of it.  



 

Question on the Vepr based rifle pictured.  Were the barrels cut and pinned?  Will that keymod work on a 5.45 Vepr allowing the front sight to stay in place - that is why I ask.  It looks really long in those pics.  Also, on Kreb's site it states the key mod is for Saiga rifles.  Is he selling a Vepr model?

Krebs needs to bring sexy back:

I second that motion!

Also to answer Citadel-SC's question, Krebs told me the barrel is cut and the flash hider is pinned to 16.25" length.  I read somewhere that they have to modify the VEPR's sight to fit their new handguard (front or rear sight, I can't recall), so they have not offered one for it yet..  The KV-13 is based on the newer VEPR with integrated rear sight.

Thanks.  I was looking at getting a 5.45 Vepr with the standard rear sight so I guess the Saiga version would work.  I was more concerned with the front sight on a 16" Vepr.  I would want to keep the front sight so I was wondering if the key mod rail was too long.  I have seen it both ways but I guess those are prototypes.

As soon as I saw the price.

The AK is anchored to the 1940's by virtue of the design.  There are aspects of the design that can be brought up to date, but there are aspects that cannot...   Even the Russians are trying to get away from it.  You've just gotta dig the AK because it's an AK, and not try to make it into something that it's not.

I agree completely. That's why Kalashnikov Concern is working on the new AK-12 - a complete overhaul of the AK platform - which will address both concerns your raised, as well as some other ones.

 Yup.

Sig 556 plus Aimpoint = DONE

Or buy a good AR, Aimpoint, rail, stock, sling, ammo, and training for less than this "AK-15"

oh yea, a 3-4 MOA sig 5,56

I like it MAC but you and I have similar tastes in guns.

I know Marc had been looking for a working AR mag conversion for a long time. Him endorsing this one and building a rifle with it means it works.
While this will start out as an expensive rifle, as all things AK go, I expect we'll see other 5.56 AK's from other companies with this conversion in a few years.

 That's your contention for new SIG 556s?