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evlblkwpnz
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Posted: 6/28/2012 8:08:45 AM
[Last Edit: 7/3/2012 9:42:02 PM by evlblkwpnz]

THE IMAGE ABOVE IS A PAID ADVERTISEMENT
I bought a couple of the M10 5.45s. I noticed that the muzzle device on one of them was pointing down oops.... pointing up. Apparently, M+M threads the muzzles and they may not be aware that there is a thread alignment tool available for 14x1 LH threading. I'm not one to send things back if I can fix them or if the issue will not effect the item after I do what I want with it. This one will be an SBR, so it doesn't really matter. The other one is fine and I will likely leave it long barreled.

Onward, since I want to SBR it, I decided to go ahead and install a Russian 5.5mm triangle folder on it (I think I may be addicted to the triangle folders ). This is where the "SURPRISE!" came into the equation. Upon field stripping, I noticed that the rear block rivet pattern was strange. The rear rivet is in the standard position for a fixed stock block, but the front rivet location is further back than standard. The sight rail also has a different pattern than usual. The front rivet is in the standard location, but the middle rivet is high and the rear rivet is further rearward than usual (because it shares the same hole as the left front rivet in the rear block). So, now I have to weld and blend the front rivet hole locations for the rear block and do the same with the center rivet hole for the sight rail. Bear in mind, I was going to install this 5.5mm folder on a Mini Draco, but really didn't feel like welding all of the factory rear block holes Here I am.... welding, blending, and locating new holes anyway. Projects like this make Saiga 12 retrofits look like child's play. On top of most of the hole locations being screwy, the center rivet hole on the sight rail is countersunk on the backside of the rail. When the center rivet was pressed, the receiver was bulged about 3/32" and 3/8" in diameter. It was bulged so hard that there are cracks in the bulge. Of couse, this means more welding and blending fun! Surprise! These receivers are so thin that it is somewhat stressful and difficult to make it look like there was no work done there upon close inspection, inside and out. I'm good at it though ;) Not fast, but good. It will be nice when I am done with it.

Enjoy the carnage! I thought I would share this info because I'm sure there has to be someone else out there that is "hands on" like me who wants to go AK100 style folder on one of these. At least you will know what to expect now.... expect to weld up some holes and install a different sight rail if you decide to keep one on it.

I forgot to label the rails in the second pic. The top rail is off of the M10. The pic of the rear blocks has the M10 block on top, Saiga 12 block in the middle, and Russian 5.5mm block at the bottom.
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The receiver looks bent in the above pic, but it only looks like that without a block in the rear.

UPDATE:
The retrofit went well and the rivets turned out decent. I only refinished the receiver, for now. After get an approved stamp and chop it, I will probably refinish the whole thing. I had an Arsenal 2 Stage trigger set rattling around in a box and decided to put some magic on it. This one should be a good shooter. Feels completely different in weight and balance now than it did out of the box. Looks ok too. Worth the effort....

A favor asked.... can someone please score me on the cut-in?

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I am a slave to my creations.... my image cannot be seen in them, but they bear my heart and soul - evl....
nictra
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Posted: 6/28/2012 9:01:07 AM
[Last Edit: 6/28/2012 9:01:29 AM by nictra]
leave it to the silly Romanians I tell ya.....

Looks like a good and fun project. I look forward to more updates!

ETA: the triangle addition is a good thing
evlblkwpnz
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Posted: 6/28/2012 9:24:56 AM
Originally Posted By nictra:
leave it to the silly Romanians I tell ya.....

Looks like a good and fun project. I look forward to more updates!

ETA: the triangle addition is a good thing

.... and I was putting off another Draco rifle/AK100 conversion. They got me again!

Don't get me wrong, I like these rifles. They are relatively affordable and there is nothing else out there in this price range in 5.45 that already has the FS/GB combo. Yes, the furniture is hideous, but that is easy enough to change.... unless you want to add a real folder

I bought these from Atlantic firearms and they offer a arfcom member discount of $20 per rifle. Their prices seem a little high until you factor in the discount. Great company to deal with and a forum vendor!

After giving it some thought, I may get an Ops can for this.

I am a slave to my creations.... my image cannot be seen in them, but they bear my heart and soul - evl....
maxxmojo
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Posted: 6/28/2012 12:44:39 PM
That's pretty interesting. I wonder if they made that rail specifically for the M10 or if it's a "new production" kind of thing. I just compared my SAR-2 to my SGL31 and it appears the SAR-2 shares the same rear trunnion as the M10, or in the very least the rivets appear to be in the same spot. However, the optics rail tracks along the same relative axis as the SGL31 relative to rivet positions. That is to say, if you look at your pics, it would appear optics on the M10 would sit about a 1/4 of an inch higher than normal. Anyone able to confirm this?
evlblkwpnz
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Posted: 6/28/2012 8:25:52 PM
Originally Posted By maxxmojo:
That's pretty interesting. I wonder if they made that rail specifically for the M10 or if it's a "new production" kind of thing. I just compared my SAR-2 to my SGL31 and it appears the SAR-2 shares the same rear trunnion as the M10, or in the very least the rivets appear to be in the same spot. However, the optics rail tracks along the same relative axis as the SGL31 relative to rivet positions. That is to say, if you look at your pics, it would appear optics on the M10 would sit about a 1/4 of an inch higher than normal. Anyone able to confirm this?

It is about 7/32" higher. Really close.

I am a slave to my creations.... my image cannot be seen in them, but they bear my heart and soul - evl....
Ceros_X
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Posted: 6/28/2012 8:46:30 PM
I have an M-10 (not bought from Atlantic) and I like it a lot. The finish isn't that great, but the price and feature set were awesome (Tapco G2 trigger and quadrail? yes please!). I did have a problem with my M-10 (there was a hand guard alignment problem) but Colorado Gun Sales sent me a pre-paid shipping label and offered to fix it for me as soon as I sent them an e-mail about it. I wound up getting a free quad rail and a free Promag out of it. Pretty great service IMO.

I wanted to go the side folding route but didn't want to have to do any AK surgery so I got a Bonesteel Arms sidefolder setup that installed in about two minutes. It let me put on a Magpum MOE stock and has been pretty awesome.












I am a little curious about your experience with poly foreign mags with your M-10 5.45, I got five Circle 21 mags from a guy and the sit is super tight (Tapco, Promags and sanitized russian plum mags all insert and remove great) - to the point where I've sanded the back of the mags down a bit to make it smoother. Have you had an experience with this? Also which version of the muzzle break did you get - the RAZR one from Tapco (looks like some sort of torture instrument) or the more blunted M10 version?

Old version:



New version:



I thought the Tapco one looked gaudy as shit, and was happy when I got a new one that was more subdued when I got it back. I have an attero arms red dot mount I'm looking to install and then a set of hogue overmolded hand guards and I think I'll be good with my rifle. Looking forward to seeing how yours turns out!
evlblkwpnz
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Posted: 6/28/2012 10:07:25 PM
Ceros_X,
For starters, the ProMags worked great and seemed like they were well built. I am not a ProMag fan, by far, but mine worked great when I test fired the weapons. I bought 16 Circle 21s and not one of them would fit in either weapon. I removed some material from the center support on each weapon and everything is GTG now. I'd rather make the weapon accept the mags than mod the mags to fit the weapon. Everyone has their own preferences though, so as long as you get them to work and you are happy.... mission accomplished.

Both of mine have the short Tapco brake, but neither have the M+M logo, which I am fine with. I'm not a fan of most logos.

I like the finish on the rifles. I'm a simple guy when it comes to certain things. My main attraction to these was the fact that they are 5.45, have a FS/GB combo, didn't break the bank, and would be good candidates to SBR. I have lost interest in fullsize weapons and have "seen the light" of chopping anything down that I can. I have 5.56 SBRs, a 7.62 SBR, a 12 ga SBS, and it just made sense to build a short 5.45. As soon as I get the cash, I will be sending a Form 1 out on this one and a few other things.

Intended Specs (hey, I may change my mind, lol)

Russian 5.5mm triangle folder
Arsenal/KVar grip
Arsenal/KVar handguards
I have an Arsenal 2 stage left over from another project that I will probably modify and use in this
OD Russian sling
Might do a reflex can on this one.... pending funds

Really not much to it. Just a simple and clean looking Kalashnikov. Same theme as my 8" Saiga 12

I started welding and blending today, but it is extremely slow. I do all of the final work by hand. I can't wait to get on with the folder install. It will go fast.
I am a slave to my creations.... my image cannot be seen in them, but they bear my heart and soul - evl....
Ceros_X
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Posted: 6/28/2012 11:02:24 PM
[Last Edit: 6/28/2012 11:05:50 PM by Ceros_X]
Glad to know I'm not the only one who had trouble getting the mags to fit. Mine would fit (it was tight) but sometimes I had to hit the mags pretty hard to knock them free. Do you mind posting some pics of what part of the weapon you modded and describing the process in a little more detail? I have sanded down the edges to make them smoother but haven't removed any large quantity of material. Anecdotally, I haven't had any problems with my Tapco or Promag mags, but then again I haven't been dropping them with any frequency to produce cracked feedlips like a lot of people do. Fight for range use to be sure.

As far as the finish, I really like the black look (of course, I'm a tacticool guy lol) but I feel it isn't super durable. You can see some scratches on the barrel in the second muzzle break pic I posted and there are others on the receiver. But my AK isn't a safe queen so it isn't a huge deal, just something I acknowledge. Some people might have a problem with it though!

I am interested in SBRing a Krink one day - I have seen several that are pure sex - but like the size of my sidefolder so far. SBRing is a little bit of a pain in the ass for me since I am in the military and move around a bit more than the average joe - also when you can get orders to California it takes some of the joy out of gun things lol.

I also have a set of KVAR handguards I got off the EE - I don't dig them as much as I though. Planning on listing them soon (if you need a set shoot me a PM and we can work something out) and getting the Hogue HG like I said - the Hogue pistol grip on the M-10 is pretty awesome and I'm looking forward to trying out the HGs.

Interested in seeing the end result of your project, please post pics as you can!
evlblkwpnz
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Posted: 6/29/2012 8:29:11 AM
I'll post some pics of the center support modification. It is pretty simple.

I'd love to have those handguards. I bought some Dracos and wouldn't mind doing a blacked-out rifle/AK100 conversion on one of them. I have plenty of trading fodder around here. Shoot me an email.
I am a slave to my creations.... my image cannot be seen in them, but they bear my heart and soul - evl....
clange
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Posted: 6/29/2012 10:18:22 AM
[Last Edit: 6/29/2012 10:23:15 AM by clange]
You could drill new holes in the rear trunnion, use the same rail and save a lot of work. Just a thought.

Edit: Never mind, missed that you've started welding already.
evlblkwpnz
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Posted: 6/29/2012 11:33:49 AM
Originally Posted By clange:
You could drill new holes in the rear trunnion, use the same rail and save a lot of work. Just a thought.

Edit: Never mind, missed that you've started welding already.


I couldn't live with it.... OCD. I would go to bed thinking about it for a long time. I like sleep....

It has to be perfect.... or not at all.
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Rocketfish
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Posted: 6/29/2012 10:04:51 PM
I am not criticizing ya, but that differing side rail/rear trunnion rivet hole location is not really a surprise. All Romanian AK's use the old AKM pattern side rail and rear trunnion. Yes even their 5.45 rifles use the AKM rear trunnion. That's the pattern the old Russian AKM guns used prior to the AK-74. The pic you posted of the 2 rails is a classic comparison of an AKM and AK-74 pattern side rail.
evlblkwpnz
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Posted: 6/30/2012 1:15:30 PM
Originally Posted By Rocketfish:
I am not criticizing ya, but that differing side rail/rear trunnion rivet hole location is not really a surprise. All Romanian AK's use the old AKM pattern side rail and rear trunnion. Yes even their 5.45 rifles use the AKM rear trunnion. That's the pattern the old Russian AKM guns used prior to the AK-74. The pic you posted of the 2 rails is a classic comparison of an AKM and AK-74 pattern side rail.


Well, it was a surprise to me It's ok though. I'm almost done with the welding and blending. The rest is much faster and easier, to me.

Really, I have only done AK100 conversions on Draco and Saiga 12s, so far. I never noticed that slight difference in rivet pattern with any of the Romanian AKs that I have owned through the years, but I wasn't considering installing a triangle folder on them either. I had a lot of Chicoms and knew they had a different pattern, but I wasn't doing anything to them either.

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evlblkwpnz
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Posted: 7/2/2012 9:23:38 PM
Update in OP
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maxxmojo
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Posted: 7/2/2012 10:04:50 PM
That turned out pretty good, should be a nice SBR when you get the approval. Did you instal the front latch as well?
nictra
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Posted: 7/2/2012 10:14:25 PM
[Last Edit: 7/2/2012 10:15:07 PM by nictra]
I'll give you a 9 out of 10 man. Looks real nice! I didn't give you a 10 out of 10 just because I don't want your head getting too big

ETA:

just noticed no PG reinforcement plate.....
evlblkwpnz
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Posted: 7/2/2012 10:22:04 PM
Originally Posted By nictra:
I'll give you a 9 out of 10 man. Looks real nice! I didn't give you a 10 out of 10 just because I don't want your head getting too big

ETA:

just noticed no PG reinforcement plate.....

I wasn't worried about the plate. This thing is far from ever being a correct 105 clone

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evlblkwpnz
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Posted: 7/2/2012 10:28:14 PM
Originally Posted By maxxmojo:
That turned out pretty good, should be a nice SBR when you get the approval. Did you instal the front latch as well?


I cut it in well and installed it, but it located where the caliber markings are. No matter how clean the cut it, it looks like shit in pics because of the depth of the engraved numbers around the edges of the hole. The same thing happens on Dracos. Romanians....

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KD27
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Posted: 7/2/2012 11:07:25 PM
Just out of curiosity, how did you remove the muzzle device? I haven't fiddled with mine yet, but was thinking about replacing the muzzle device (not a big fan of the look).
evlblkwpnz
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Posted: 7/3/2012 1:14:41 AM
Originally Posted By KD27:
Just out of curiosity, how did you remove the muzzle device? I haven't fiddled with mine yet, but was thinking about replacing the muzzle device (not a big fan of the look).

I have two of these. One was finger tight. The other was easily removed by sticking a well fitting punch through the holes. They are 14 x 1 LH threaded, so don't forget to turn it backwards to get it off.

FWIW, take a close look at the muzzle device on this one. It is pointing upwards, big time. Prime excuse to chop it Shoots fine though.

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pearlwhitemike
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Posted: 7/3/2012 3:52:16 AM
Originally Posted By evlblkwpnz:
A favor asked.... can someone please score me on the cut-in?



At least 9/10, looks very professional. did you do that all with a die grinder?
evlblkwpnz
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Posted: 7/3/2012 11:45:50 AM
Originally Posted By pearlwhitemike:
Originally Posted By evlblkwpnz:
A favor asked.... can someone please score me on the cut-in?



At least 9/10, looks very professional. did you do that all with a die grinder?


I used a vertical mill and die grinder for the rough-out, and files for the fine tuning. I've done a lot of them, but this was the fastest regarding the cut-in, so far. I figured out how to make the latch cuts really tight and accurate while allowing the latch to operate easily. The filling and blending of some of the original rear block and sight rails holes slowed me down a bit on the front end though.

I am a slave to my creations.... my image cannot be seen in them, but they bear my heart and soul - evl....
KD27
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Posted: 7/3/2012 1:23:30 PM
Originally Posted By evlblkwpnz:
Originally Posted By KD27:
Just out of curiosity, how did you remove the muzzle device? I haven't fiddled with mine yet, but was thinking about replacing the muzzle device (not a big fan of the look).

I have two of these. One was finger tight. The other was easily removed by sticking a well fitting punch through the holes. They are 14 x 1 LH threaded, so don't forget to turn it backwards to get it off.

FWIW, take a close look at the muzzle device on this one. It is pointing upwards, big time. Prime excuse to chop it Shoots fine though.



Interesting. I just tried to unthread mine, and it wouldn't budge. And yes, I remembered to turn the right way :)
avatarhammer
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Posted: 7/3/2012 4:25:21 PM
10 outta 10 for the awesome work but I gotta subtract 1 for the muzzle device. It looks better than the old style but still throwin' out some negative waves. Some kinda cage hider or something similar should get your rifle back to a perfect 10 status.

Just saw you're going to chop it. Please don't use that muzzle thingy –– like, for the children and all that.
sdrake100
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Posted: 7/3/2012 4:36:14 PM
8.75/10 on the sidefolder cuts. I've seen a lot worse from a certain builder touting their stuff on here by posting tons of photos and wanting to get 5.45 banned for all of us.

Doesn't quite seem as even on the bottom of the right side. It could just be the photo.
evlblkwpnz
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Posted: 7/3/2012 10:15:48 PM
[Last Edit: 7/3/2012 10:56:18 PM by evlblkwpnz]
Originally Posted By sdrake100:
8.75/10 on the sidefolder cuts. I've seen a lot worse from a certain builder touting their stuff on here by posting tons of photos and wanting to get 5.45 banned for all of us.

Doesn't quite seem as even on the bottom of the right side. It could just be the photo.


It isn't the photo, it's the receiver. The way they bent it, one side ended up longer than the other, so the gap between the receiver and rear block is significantly larger on the right side. The receiver is worse in the front and has a bend in the side of it as well. The rails aren't straight either, but the thing shoots and runs good, so what more is there in this price range with a FS/GB combo? Not much. Really, for $604 shipped (and I get free transfers), I can't complain too much about it. The cut is flush with the block on the side and bottom, but that gap makes it look like it wasn't flush. Wasn't much I could do about it aside from rebuilding on a new receiver. The sights were really canted too, but cheap is cheap. Gotta make it work ;)

ETA: you can see the gap from a different angle in the 4th pic of the update.

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I am a slave to my creations.... my image cannot be seen in them, but they bear my heart and soul - evl....
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