Behindlines.net class, 28JAN12 in Sayre, PA AAR


For those of you not familiar with him, Marco Vorbiev is an ex Spetznas who served in the Russian Afghan war as an SVD marksman. Last year I took his class to get some formal training on the SVD itself and to see what the class was all about. I walked away with a very different mindset on the SVD than I started with and learned alot. This year I decided to take the class again as a little bit of a refresher and to see where I was at with some of the things I had  learned. I was joined by Nictra and Auzie, two of my good TX shooting buddies and we met up with C-4 from Arfcom. He turned out to be hilarious and fit right in.  
Like last year the class was held in Sayre PA but not at the same range as before. This year Voron from theakforum.net worked with a local farmer and got us access to his land, we ended up getting to shoot to 600m and had plenty of manuever room for the infantry stuff. For anyone interested last year's review IS HERE

Marco's style is professional and informative and he can dial his instruction up or down based on the experience of the student. This year we had 8 in the class, with a mix of LEO, ex military, one active Army and a couple civilians. Everyone learned something and I think everyone saw their shooting improve, found things to work on and got a better idea of how a DMR can be employed.

Day 1 consisted of meet and greet/introductions, class overview, safety brief and course content/overview. The first order of business in the morning was confirming zero and getting gear situated as needed, then it was run and gun all day with a lot of infantry manuevers as well as a full day of live fire, which included shooting from the moving 'BMP' and movement to contact drills. As in my previous AAR the intent of the class is not about ultra precision - one shot one kill type shooting...it's about getting the most out of a semi automatic DMR rifle under multiple target dynamic engagements. The drills were about speed and rapid fire rather than pin point shooting, and were designed to teach you to shoot with 'practical accuracy'. Of notable mention is the concept of double tapping or firing two shots back to back with a DMR, something that last year I had never really thought of doing with a scoped rifle. With some practice it is quite effective and is intended to be used on most every target engaged unless maximum possible accuracy is necessary.  

One thing I like about how Marco teaches is the common sense attitude of the instruction...if you shoot too fast you will miss, so the natural thing to do is dial your speed in to the level where you can hit reliably during the double tap. I think most of the shooters learned what their sweet spot was and got 4-6 inch groups at 100 yards while shooting high speed timed drills at multiple targets, typically 8 targets/16 rounds in 24 seconds. 6 inches may not sound that great but again that is plenty good enough to score center mass hits out to 300m and further while shooting pretty quickly. Auzie really tore these drills up, on day 1 he shot some honest 2 inch groups using ball ammo and his Tiger. I've seen Tiger's do that from the bench but he had a knack for doing it at high speed.

Last thing We did after sunset was night fire with Marco's 1PN34 and 1PN58. I would have brought my 1PN34 again like last year but I accidently pulled a wire from the AA battery mod and didn't have time to fix it before I left for the class. I think the guys who had never seen or really shot with night vision got a big kick of using them, they do work well despite appearing to be ancient 80's era equipment. I know I really like my 1PN34.

Day 2 was building and proofing a battle position, learning how to construct a camoflauged snipers nest, how to create a range card and then shoot, shoot, shoot all day long. 14 targets ranged from 200m to 600m and we had to continually engage random targets called out by Marco. We learned a bit about estimating wind and how to compensate for it, how to use hold overs and hold unders to rapidly engage targets instead of adjusting the turrets on the optics. Again it was about practical speed and putting down a volume of fire to quickly overwhelm the engagement area targets. Another point to consider is that on day 1 in particular every drill we ran involved some level of physical exertion and was intended to put us in uncomfortable shooting positions with elevated heart rates. The intent was to show you that under real conditions you won't have the luxury of time and comfort to take the perfect shot, and that you must learn to shoot well with whatever you have at that moment. Good stuff IMO

We didn't get any snow unfortunately, the week before the class PA was in the 40's and it all melted. We did get to roll around in icy slush on day 1 but day 2 was colder and windier, particularly in the afternoon. Overall I think the weather was great and no one complained about the lack of snow. I'll also say a good word for the Gorka mountain suits we had, they worked like a charm.

Speaking of good words, a big thanks must be given to Voron of theakforum.net. Without him these classes would not be possible...he works tirelessly all weekend to keep everything moving, to help shooters get on target and to solve the inevitable problems that crop up. His generosity is amazing and he's good people. Thanks!


On to the pics:



Day 1 checking zero.




Practicing the combat roll in preparation for the dismount from the moving BMP




And the BMP takes off






Field manuevers

Ex Marine, Auzie, Nictra and Zen in the rear, rest of the squad is in the tree line ahead






Why did the Zen cross the road, you ask?



To get to the shooting on the other side of course





Live fire - movement to contact and engaging to the right, targets 50-200m out. We did this in relays a number of times.  




This is one of my favorite parts of the class, shooting from the moving 'BMP'. These pics are side to side shooting, we also did moving forward and backward again on a different part of the road.






Day 2 on the battle position overlooking the engagement area. There were 14 targets from 200m to 600m.
In this first picture there are 8 of us hidden at the top of the position. We were close together for practical purposes and to maximize safety, but it goes to show what a little camo can do to hide a lot of guys in a small area if need be. I'm on the left of the photo for reference of the size of the BP



Showing my position without being under my poncho



The engagement area, far edge of the treeline was about 700m or so


View from next to the PSO turret


View through the PSO



Auzie and the Tiger


Izhmash MP spotter scope (up to 20x variable magnification)


Auzie improving his position. We used hay for efficiencies sake but would have taken the time to use existing vegetation to match the position we were in had it been for real.  








I'd have to say the battle position shooting was my favorite event overall. We shot further than last year, had to deal with a 15-20mph wind with freezing gusts while being under a poncho with foliage on top and doing timed drills with random targets called by Marco. Random targets from 200m to 600m across the width of the engagement area isn't as simple as it sounds, wind and hold overs change because of the various distances and it's not the easiest thing to do under pressure that's for sure. There was a lot going on but I was happy with my results and during the process I learned a few things about hold overs and how to better use the PSO reticule at speed. Once again the emphasis was on combat speed shooting, not precision sniper shots.




Misc

Nictra with FAL


C-4 with his PSL


Marco showing how to do a transition with the DMR


J with Marco's SVDS. He used his own PSL in class and Marco commented that he was the best PSL marksman he had ever taught. Guy could definitely hit with it, I was impressed.


C-4 with Marco's SVDS


My trusty NDM86





T and J, good guys. T was a police instructor and J was someone who had taken a lot of classes. Both squared away and I think they had a good time also. Yes, some of J's gear was white. We were expecting snow after all ;)  

T's 308 AR



Auzie on the rampage in Gorka-R with his Tiger


Nictra with FAL in Gorka-E summer/green colored mountain suit and me in Gorka-E autumn/brown colored suit with NDM86. Can't say enough good about the Gorka mountain suits...worth every freakin penny. Perfect for the wet and cold conditions we were in.




Gear details for anyone interested:

The uniforms that Auzie, Nictra and I wore were Gorka mountain suits. http://www.soviet-propaganda.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1_24&products_id=8 These are produced by SPOSN in Russia and designed for cold weather and mountain use. They work...and they work extremely well. All you need to do is wear the appropriate layers underneither for warmth and the Gorka will keep you dry and protect you from the wind. I wore only one single base layer of thin smart wool and I was fine all weekend, especially when moving. The two tone OD colored one is Gorka-R, the greenish one is Gorka-E Summer and the brown one I had on is Gorka-E Autumn pattern.

For my chest rig I had Arfcom's Hawkeye who owns http://www.uwgearinc.com/ make me a new 10 mag SVD rig in the SURPAT pattern and it completely rocked. I was extremely happy with it and will be posting a seperate review once it gets shipped back to me. I also used my old school LBE that I kept from my time in the Army and it worked as good as always, combined with the chest rig I had everything I needed with me at all times.



Once again big thanks to Voron from theakforum.net for putting the class on, like last year without him there wouldn't have been a class in the first place.

Thanks!




Z

Nice! So as far as rifles brought to the class, some PSL's, SVD's Tigers, AR10, Fal's but it looks like someone is also shooting a HK91? Last year I remember seeing you guys with a secondary weapon slung over your back but not this year? One thing for sure, the weather in PA. matches Russian weather pretty well, dark and dreary, must have felt good to get back to sunny and warm Texas.

yea, we had some communication errors about the secondaries. Last year we drove up, this year we flew, so ammo was sent up prior to class. We were going to borrow some ammo from Voron, but like I said, we had a communication error. Basically, Zen, Auzzie and Missed that part due to lack of ammo.



There was a PTR91 in the class that did really good as far as I recall. My FAL was a jam-o-matic . Combination of different ammo and new parts I had just received before the trip that I threw on. I'm too use to the AK I guess. I've now worked out the bugs and my rifle seems to be cycling just fine, of course! Lesson, run your rifle through the paces BEFORE the class, not at the class. DUH! A lot of face palming on my part.



Back on topic, thanks again to Voron for setting it up, Marco for teaching it, and Zen for for the most excellent outter wear. I can't echo Zen enough, this stuff rocks!



excellent write up as usual man.

Seriously, how does one get involved in this? I can't believe I missed this class.

You just sign up and write a check.  Zen has been posting little plugs for it for nearly a year now.  It was in this thread he bumped periodically http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_4_64/134078_AAR___Dragunov_long_range_marksmanship_class___Behind_The_Lines_Winter_Course___Jan_29_30.html

Great write up TX!!!

Good write up as always. Were you guys using mostly 4x optics for this?

Half the class had fixed 4x PSO type optics, the HK and AR guys all had variable power 3-10x type scopes. While the 100 yard groups were sweet when the guys were on 10x for the close range drills, they took Marco's suggestion and ran 4x on day 2 for the longer range targets. I think the point was made that 4x is plenty sufficient to score hits even at 600m+ and it's more important to have the FOV and be able to acquire targets faster than you can at 10x. Both eyes open shooting was discussed and why it works also.



The fellow in brown with the white gear had an HK and he did pretty well with it. He and the police instructor did the transition drills like we did last year but I spent the time reloading for the next iteration since I had familiarity already.

To be honest I miss the cold, I always have a good time in it. I was in Pinedale WY a couple weeks ago for work and it was -12F, even the other Texan with me was having fun.



Z

Wow, excellent writeup as always Zen and Nictra. I will definitely have to see about coming next year, seeing as it's only 3.5 hours away

What was the cost of the class? Any required gear, etc?

I was one of the guys without any military or police background so I wouldn't let that discourage anyone from taking any of Marco's courses.  TX-Zen was very gracious with his advice and answering my questions before the course, especially from an anonymous person on the internet.  It was a pleasure to meet him, nictra, Auzie and Voron.  The group as a whole worked well together, and Marco is a natural-born teacher.  Just an all-around great experience that I'm still digesting.

I made a few tweaks to my rig today and spent an hour walking around the house in it to see how I liked it. Always get a few looks from the wife



 

Eh Marriage is all about tolerance.



Good write up Zen as always. And as far as the FAL goes it's amazing what a small thing can do with some weapons. I've learned the FAL ....at least mine likes her rails nice and lubed up and if you do that the rifle will just go and go.



I will always like the 7.62x54r round but since getting into the FN I've come to really appreciate the 308 round.





 

I'm still breaking this one in





 

SO BADASS.





I want to play, but have a wedding and stuff to take care of first

I got class, hmmm but I would only have to skip a Friday's worth to go since it's over the weekend. I think I may have my Christmas present idea already

Nictra/Zen, what gear, weapons, and equipment are needed? Looks like you guys used a DMR, backup rifle, and pistol? How many rounds did you bring? What are you running gear wise?

I used my 10 mag SVD chest rig built by UW Gear, my LBE from the army and the Gorka mountain suit. I had a couple extra molle SVD mag pouches on the chest rig for a total of 12 mags. Auzie and I each shipped 880 rounds of 54R directly from SG ammo to Voron so we wouldn't have to take it on the plane with us. By the end of the class the two of us had demolished almost 3 full tins of 54R and left one unopened one for Voron, so close to 1200 rounds for his Tiger and my NDM86

Marco suggests bringing infantry style field gear...mess kit, e-tool, poncho, shooting mat, cutting tool (like multi tool or a good knife) and clothing appropriate for the climate. We didn't end up needing the e-tool, I don't use a shooting mat personally and I had to borrow a poncho for the sniper's hide because I forgot mine. It's imperative to have something to make a range card with but it doesn't have to be fancy, I used the paper pad from the hotel. Another suggestion instead of the poncho was cheese cloth or some kind of netting with a tighter weave (not Army style camo netting, too large). One guy complained that the gases from his rifle weren't ventilating out from his position well which is why the netting was recommended. I used a borrowed poncho and my SVD wasn't ventilating the gas well from position either but I enjoy that sort of thing.

I had my two canteens on the LBE but C-4 and Nictra bought a couple of the 5 dollar 24 pack of bottled waters and we shared with everyone, so having water on your person wasn't critical. We didn't use pistols at all and Marco discourages them in general due to his experiences, but he doesn't tell you not to use them as a secondary, he just teaches to use a short carbine instead. It is advisable to have a secondary carbine though as mentioned most of us didn't use ours this year, but we did last year. Last year I had a couple mags and shot about 60 rounds out of my SLR105, Nictra lent his AKSU out and shot quite a bit more 5.45 than I did.

There's no land nav type training so no need to worry about compass or GPS etc. The infantry maneuvers are relatively short range and don't require land nav to get from A to B


Biggest thing is to test your gear and weapons way before getting to the class. Both Auzie and I tested and confirmed our zero in Houston and were confident in the ammo, but we were not so pleasantly surprised to see that it shifted noticeably just by changing the 54R we used at the class. Where I was previously dead on with 70's era ball ammo, the stuff we cracked open at the class required me to adjust elevation from 1 to 3 on the turret to get POI matched up with POA at 100 yards...I was shooting about 8 inches low from the different ammo. In fact on the second day Auzie's tiger pretty much went to hell due to the ammo and he couldn't group well at all, where previously he was shooting some really nice groups on day 1. For some reason in my NDM the crap ammo didn't do nearly as bad as it did in his Tiger but when we changed to it on day 2 I had to readjust my turret from 3 to 2 because I was shooting high. Long story short 3 different tins of ammo caused both our rifles to have 3 different POI and for his Tiger it became nearly impossible to hit on day 2.

My lesson learned is to make sure every possible component is the same before the class as during the class, and to use the same ammo throughout if possible. It really wasn't a huge deal for me but that last batch of ammo really killed the Tiger thats for sure.


Z

Marco is extremely practical and is one of the most no nonsense guys I've met in the service. Nothing gee whiz, no swat style flashy reloads just old school dependable training.

Your chest rig was fantastic btw, it performed exactly as I was hoping and ran like a champ.



Z

like Zen, I used my old school LBE with HSGI Tacos. I can't recommend these enough. They fir AR-FAL mags with no adjustments. Probably the most essential piece of my equipment. Nothing fancy, going to add a drop pouch soon, ran out of $ prior to the class so that slid by. Other than that, that's all besides the camo and gloves and boots. Taking Marcos class last year really drove home the KISS principle to me. I emplyed my fancy shit at Sonny's class, then my LBE at Marcos. The simple LBE works so much better. I did kinda miss the warmth a chest rig would give though....

Added a few pics of the timed drills we did.

Start prone, sprint to rifle, load mag and fire at 8 targets/16 rounds in 35 seconds. For the SVD and PSL that meant another mag change in the middle. This was another of my favorite exercises.















Also here's an excerpt from last year's AAR about the speed drills describing the method for multiple target engagement and the 'double tap'




Day one started at 100m checking our zero and making minor adjustments. A perfect zero wasn't required for what was being taught, rather the principle of rapid relatively accurate fire was most important, not being able to put two rounds in the same hole. The first series of exercises focused on shooting multiple targets rapidly. We had 6 lanes set up (one for each of us) with 4 small targets per lane. Marco would hand out a shooting order...1.3, 2.4, 5.1 and 6.2 for example. That mean your first target was in lane 1 and you were shooting at small circle #3. Second target was lane number two, circle #4, 3rd target lane 5 circle #1 and so on. We had 35 seconds to shoot 24 rounds which for a Dragunov meant two reloads...at 3-5 seconds per reload I was looking at about 25 seconds for 24 rounds. Wasn't easy, the best I did was 22 rounds and 2 mag changes. I could usually get off 20 rounds and be ready to fire the first round of the last mag right as the whistle blew and time ended.

What surprised me about this exercise was how accurate I was at speed and how relatively tight the groupings were at that rate of fire. I was getting most of my rounds into a 6" circle on each target and I literally had only enough time to put the chevron in the black and squeeze off two rounds quick before I moved to the next target. What the technique demonstrated was that many things in shooting are automatic when done at high speed, basically the less you think the better you do as an average. No you don't hit one MOA at that speed but you are able to put two kill shots into a target rapidly while using a scope...they don't have to be pretty, they just need to get the job done - again, nothing fancy, just a practical way to take advantage of the semi automatic design of the SVD. Another aspect of the drill was to acquire multiple targets spread across the width of an engagement area...its a lot harder to swing the muzzle back and forth across many targets when shooting at that speed, and that lesson is one I found particularly valuable. It's a complete break from the way I've learned to shoot a scoped rifle which is to take the time to breath, aim, squeeze one round off and then shoot again. This is much more like the pavlovian response beaten into me by the US Army M16 training where as soon as you see a target you tend to reflexively aim and shoot, the fundamentals are there in the background and should work automatically. They definately seemed to work during this drill.

Another thing I took away was the rapid fire itself. Marco stressed the rapid doubletap for getting the highest practical chance to hit, not using deliberate slow fire for maximum accuracy. Certain parts of doubletap are situational dependant obviously, as in you probably wouldn't do it if the target were at 500m with just his head exposed for example, but his intent was to show that even an optically sighted rifle can use the technique to good advantage, particularly in a skirmish with multiple moving targets. Again I wouldn't say this was a must use technique for everyday life but it did give me more insight into what a DMR can do in the right hands. It was also good for increasing confidence in your rifle...the technique works and when you see the results it gives you a new appreciation for your rifle because you actually can put down a high volume of relative accurate fire. Another insight was that my groups varied between which target I was shooting at...certain angles of shooting gave tighter groups than others which is something that I hadn't ever noticed shooting at the same target repeatedly during slow fire on the range in Texas. Not an earth shattering observation but it demonstrated differences in body position and the effect it has on accuracy.

During the first day we also hopped into the back of a pickup truck to shoot on the move. This was to simulate engaging from a BMP troop carrier and while I really doubt I'd be on top of a BMP during SHTF, once again I found the exercise to be useful. It's not easy to shoot with an optic from the back of a truck bouncing through the snow, the reticule flies all over the place and it's hard to get any kind of sight picture. Something new occured as well...eye relief on a PSO scope must be taken into account. From the bench it's always right, in the real world you have to learn fast how to reflexively get lined up correctly...not easy either. Nonetheless I hit way more than I thought I would and noticed something subtle here too...with practice it IS possible to hit from a moving vehicle and while it probably won't be a common occurance in real life, it also increased my confidence with the Dragunov because again, it does work and it is possible.

The first round of truck shooting involved driving back and forth parallel to the steel targets we set up at 100m. The second run was much harder, which was shooting prone while driving towards and away from many many targets. While the first run was only two targets, the second was about 8 spread out somewhat horizontally and to about 50-75m in depth. The truck brought us to point blank on some and closer to 75m on others while we were bouncing around in the back. While using the optic we had to enage all the targets as fast as we could, reload and continue to engage. I found this to be really tough because of how far the rifle had to swing back and forth due to the close ranges and how huge the targets were in the optic. Logically I would have thought it a better idea to use irons at closer ranges but the point of the exercise is that your optic can be used at any range, on any number of targets while stationary or on the move. It reinforced the first moving drill and added on to the rapid fire drill we did from the prone position earlier in the day.




Z

What I found interesting from day 2 is that you didn't have to worry about adjusting your POA until you were beyond 250-300m.

you dont want 7n6 in your class, he would make you all look like fools, hes even better than the instructors

SVD PRON!!!!!

AHHHHHHH NOOOOOO you are so lucky wow!! I wish we had something like this up here in Or... I only have a 7762x39 PSL, I dont know if my 600m game is up for it! wow that looks so fun, very lucky group... also anyone know what that mono rear pod is on the AR, here I have an AR "sniper" with that Magpul stock and I have been looking for one (not very hard evidently)

The guy with the 556 M4 did not seem to be doing well at 600m but he was further down the line and I didn't get a chance to pay close attention. Because the wind was kicking up pretty well I didn't feel like the 7.62x39 or 5.56/5.45 would be terribly effective that far out.



I think T was using an Accu-Shot Precision Monopod for the Magpul, this might be it:

http://dsgarms.com/ProductInfo/BT12.aspx




Z

Awesome awesome thread.
Thank you for sharing.
Makes me want a SVDS real bad.

Very nice write, thanks for sharing!

Great stuff! Thanks Zen!

Great AAR.  I enjoy seeing people train rather than just shooting.  I've heard good things about Marco's classes.

Thanks guys


It was a good class and as I've said I recommend it to anyone who wants to training on dynamic shooting. It's a real eye opener if you haven't done it before.




Z

What a country!

The training looks cool.

That said, is the law against "paramilitary" training in PA still on the books? (- 18 Pa. Cons. Stat. § 5515)

Someone more knowledgeable then me could probably comment on whether this would be potentially problematic.  Not trying to be a buzzkill.

I did a quick read of the law and it sounds like there is an exemption:



You did scare me for a second.

"Lawful" sports or activities is what concerns me.  Not that I think it's unlawful, but there are prosecutors out there who may beg to differ.  Shouldn't be a problem in that part of PA, but I certianlly wouldn't do it anywhere near Philly or the surrounding SEPA counties (or if there were a Dem for Gov in PA).  I'm probably coming across like buzzkillington, not my intent.  I would like to do something like this.

No, I know what you mean.  It's important not to draw attention from the wrong people.  I actually went to college in Philly so I know the world of a difference between there and the more rural areas.  When I was looking at taking the course, I thought, 'Watch Sayre be in the most south-western part of the state'.  When it turned out that it was in the most north-eastern part of the state and only a 7 hour drive, I had to go.

Sounds like PA has some crazy laws



Z

A lot of the States have crazy laws.  You guys in TX and we here in ID have quite lenient gun laws but many of the states in which I've lived are mind-boggling in the idiocy of their gun laws.

A quick read of the PA laws gives me pause that you guys could be charged under PA law if a prosecutor or State Attorney felt the urge to do so.  An interesting, tho possibly useless defense at the State level, would be your commitment to exercise your status as members of the "militia" as described in US v Miller and to some degree the Heller case.  Of course such a defense would be something of an admission of non-sporting activity as would the name of the course itself.

We do similar things routinely as a part of our physical fitness workouts {which include shooting} and frankly, such activities when incorporated into a workout routine are superb for getting a guy in shape for mountain hunting {or mere living!} and might be seen as something of an "obstacle course" to build practical hunting skills.  Would such a defense stand up in court?  I have no idea but like the other posters, I reckon you might have a tough time in some parts of the state, even if the case went more or less nowhere. {You still incur defense costs, travel expense, etc.}

It really is an interesting question and I wonder if anyone has been charged in PA on this statute?

Let your mind wander...where would such activities cross the line?  Would starting a Waffenlauf club be illegal?  How will the changing culture of America redefine gun use?  Already those of us who hunt all year long, every month are rare indeed.  Most Americans do not hunt and thus "have no sporting need" for arms, so...following the logical and idiotic, but dangerous, nonetheless argument of the gun grabbers, if the fellow is engaged in shooting activities that involve movement and running, shooting from cover, shooting various targets {silhouettes, etc} are they in violation?

Now, add this component;  what does the State do if those involved are members of suspected Islamist groups.  How would a State prosecute {or would it?} such activities.  Will they then prosecute non-Islamic groups "just to be fair"?

All food for thought, but many of us no doubt find these threads both very interesting and also feel a twinge of anxiety for those involved who post them.  Yes, there are those in this country that want complete disarming of the populace, those who continue to promote the lie that gun ownership is founded on sporting use needs and those who fear what might be called any sort of fire and movement activity as a threat to Public Safety.

Best.