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Basic
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Posted: 7/12/2010 12:32:50 PM EST
Thinking of switching from the stock Arsenal trigger on my SGL to a Tapco G2. Handling other AKs with G2s, I feel like the G2 is lighter (makes for faster follow-up shots) and maybe cleaner. What do you guys think? Is it an upgrade or not?

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Link Posted: 7/12/2010 12:36:33 PM EST
Some like the G2 over the Arsenal. The Arsenal's that were MIM were known to break at one time. I have one Arsenal in an Arsenal rifle. All my others have been Gordon Tech G2's, Tapco G2's and FSE fire control groups. I had an RSA set but sold it as I didn't care for all the adjusting to get it to work correctly.

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Link Posted: 7/12/2010 12:44:36 PM EST
Use the one that gets the best results for you.

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Link Posted: 7/12/2010 3:37:41 PM EST
I can tell you I've never had an issue with the G2. OTOH, I had the Arsenal hammer almost disintegrate in a SA M7 carbine two years ago, less than 300 rds through the rifle. I've even got the pictures to prove it.

Others have had good luck with the Arsenal stuff and some have had bad luck with the G2. Try each and see which one you like.

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Link Posted: 7/12/2010 3:44:26 PM EST
Are the Arsenal/K-VAR 2 stage triggers any good or durable? I just ordered some.

I have a lot of G2s and have been well pleased, but thought I'd try some 2 stages.
Disclaimer: I do not work for Tactical Machining, Daniel Defense, Centurion Arms, Noveske, Colt, VLTOR, AO Precision, Magpul, Giessele, Troy, Eotech, Harris, YHM, BCM, Stag, Sharp's, Lothar Walther, LMT, Tapco, or Walmart. Got all that, Sherlock?
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Link Posted: 7/12/2010 4:08:55 PM EST
I've put somewhere around 1500 rounds through my Arsenal, no reliability issues. However, the G2 trigger on my Draco does release smoother.

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Link Posted: 7/12/2010 4:34:24 PM EST
I replaced my original Chinese trigger which most people consider one of the smoothest stock triggers you can get with a Tapco G2 that I smoothed all the contact points with a Dremel tool and buffing compound.

It is just as smooth as the original Chinese one was.
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Link Posted: 7/12/2010 6:32:34 PM EST
Originally Posted By evlblkwpnz:
Are the Arsenal/K-VAR 2 stage triggers any good or durable? I just ordered some.

I have a lot of G2s and have been well pleased, but thought I'd try some 2 stages.


The Kvar is not a real two stage trigger.


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Link Posted: 7/12/2010 6:36:08 PM EST
The G2 is infinitely better than the Arsenal trigger, I replaced mine after the first time I shot my rifle.

Mak
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Link Posted: 7/12/2010 6:47:13 PM EST
Originally Posted By PreemptiveStrike:
I replaced my original Chinese trigger which most people consider one of the smoothest stock triggers you can get with a Tapco G2 that I smoothed all the contact points with a Dremel tool and buffing compound.

It is just as smooth as the original Chinese one was.


I did that with all of mine. Used a rubber impregnated abrasive wheel and then followed with a cotton tip with the rubbing compound from a dremel kit. Smooth as glass.


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Link Posted: 7/12/2010 7:31:01 PM EST
OK, so it looks like I should at least try the G2 and see if it is an improvement.

Alright, then I have two questions:

a) Exactly what parts do I need to do this installation on my SGL? Is this all I need, or do I need more?

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=799634

Do I need the springy thing? The "retainer plate"?

b) What's the simplest set of online instructions for doing the installation? I've always got conflicting advice on this and have yet to find a straightforward set of instructions.

This will be my first time doing this kind of work on my AK, so please be kind. I originally thought I'd have a gunsmith do this, but I'd like to get to know the inner workings of my AK a little bit more.

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Link Posted: 7/12/2010 8:18:57 PM EST
I have used Arsenal and G2 triggers. I prefer the G2.
You Tube has videos on AK FCG installation.

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Link Posted: 7/13/2010 8:29:55 AM EST
Here are the Tapco G2 trigger parts I have on hand from way back:




Can someone tell me if this is all I need? Will I need a disconnector spring from Tapco or should I re-use the Arsenal one? Also, should I re-use the Arsenal hammer or use the Tapco? And will I need a new hammer spring and retainer spring (shepherd's crook)?

Thanks!

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Link Posted: 7/13/2010 8:49:04 AM EST
You can use the springs that are already in your rifle.

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Link Posted: 7/13/2010 9:57:27 AM EST
After a bad experience with mixing fcg parts, I don't do that anymore.

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Link Posted: 7/13/2010 10:18:13 AM EST
[Last Edit: 7/13/2010 10:19:08 AM EST by Mak]
Originally Posted By POLYTHENEPAM:
After a bad experience with mixing fcg parts, I don't do that anymore.



You don't do what? Use the springs that are already in your rifle?


Tapco fire control groups don't come with springs.

Or mixing the Arsenal Hammer with the Tapco group? That may not work well


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Link Posted: 7/13/2010 12:11:49 PM EST
Originally Posted By Mak:

Or mixing the Arsenal Hammer with the Tapco group? That may not work well



This. I probably should have quoted his question.

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Link Posted: 7/13/2010 12:24:52 PM EST
Originally Posted By POLYTHENEPAM:
Originally Posted By Mak:

Or mixing the Arsenal Hammer with the Tapco group? That may not work well



This. I probably should have quoted his question.


Get a slam fire? I did.


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Link Posted: 7/13/2010 1:07:36 PM EST
Originally Posted By POLYTHENEPAM:
Originally Posted By Mak:

Or mixing the Arsenal Hammer with the Tapco group? That may not work well



This. I probably should have quoted his question.


So what about the disconnector and hammer springs? Are these interchangeable between the two brands? I'm particularly curious as to whether the disconnector springs between Arsenal and Tapco have identical specs.
thanks!

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Link Posted: 7/13/2010 1:10:13 PM EST
I love my tapco trigger that is already installed in my Norinco MAK-90, it gives me 3 parts for 922(r). Trigger is easy to install.
Three shot groups do not give a true picture of the accuracy of a rifle and ammunition combination. That is why the US Military requires 10-shot groups for the accuracy testing of the ammunition used by our Armed Forces.
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Link Posted: 7/13/2010 1:35:55 PM EST
Originally Posted By dgposton:
Originally Posted By POLYTHENEPAM:
Originally Posted By Mak:

Or mixing the Arsenal Hammer with the Tapco group? That may not work well



This. I probably should have quoted his question.


So what about the disconnector and hammer springs? Are these interchangeable between the two brands? I'm particularly curious as to whether the disconnector springs between Arsenal and Tapco have identical specs.
thanks!


Never had any problems using springs as they are probably all just regular milspec foreign AK springs

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Link Posted: 7/13/2010 1:37:27 PM EST

Originally Posted By dgposton:
Originally Posted By POLYTHENEPAM:
Originally Posted By Mak:

Or mixing the Arsenal Hammer with the Tapco group? That may not work well



This. I probably should have quoted his question.


So what about the disconnector and hammer springs? Are these interchangeable between the two brands? I'm particularly curious as to whether the disconnector springs between Arsenal and Tapco have identical specs.
thanks!
Both brands use the military springs from overseas so they are compatible.

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Link Posted: 7/13/2010 2:44:25 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/13/2010 2:45:34 PM EST by TheGrandIllusion]
I've had no problems with my Arsenal trigger. I'm at about 4,000 rounds through the SGL31. It gets a little bit smoother as its used. It still isn't nearly as light as the G2 trigger in my WASR, but it's acceptable as a military trigger.

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Link Posted: 7/13/2010 4:06:55 PM EST
I like my Arsenal trigger better than the 3, G2 triggers I've had previously in other AK's. and it's not even broke-in good yet.

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Link Posted: 7/13/2010 4:36:35 PM EST
Originally Posted By Mak:
Originally Posted By POLYTHENEPAM:
Originally Posted By Mak:

Or mixing the Arsenal Hammer with the Tapco group? That may not work well



This. I probably should have quoted his question.


Get a slam fire? I did.


I had the hammer jar loose from the trigger hook when I chambered a cartridge! My finger was no where near the trigger.
That was enough for me.

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Link Posted: 7/13/2010 4:37:12 PM EST
Originally Posted By PreemptiveStrike:
I replaced my original Chinese trigger which most people consider one of the smoothest stock triggers you can get with a Tapco G2 that I smoothed all the contact points with a Dremel tool and buffing compound.

It is just as smooth as the original Chinese one was.



I've replaced my Chinese FCG with G2s too and can't complain about the comparison of the trigger action really. I think the original might have been a little better but it might just be my imagination.

The only thing that makes me reluctant about it is the MIM manufacturing process of the Tapco FCGs. I've never heard of any failures but metallurgically speaking I don't rust MIM as much when used in high stress, wear or high impact applications. I would feel better using forged, machined and case hardened steel any day of the week.

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Link Posted: 7/13/2010 6:02:02 PM EST
Originally Posted By Imaposer2:
Originally Posted By PreemptiveStrike:
I replaced my original Chinese trigger which most people consider one of the smoothest stock triggers you can get with a Tapco G2 that I smoothed all the contact points with a Dremel tool and buffing compound.

It is just as smooth as the original Chinese one was.



I've replaced my Chinese FCG with G2s too and can't complain about the comparison of the trigger action really. I think the original might have been a little better but it might just be my imagination.

The only thing that makes me reluctant about it is the MIM manufacturing process of the Tapco FCGs. I've never heard of any failures but metallurgically speaking I don't rust MIM as much when used in high stress, wear or high impact applications. I would feel better using forged, machined and case hardened steel any day of the week.


Does Tapco use MIM? They didn't in the past, they used casting. They pour the molten metal into forms and then clean up the parts. You can see the casting marks running down the center of the part.

Arsenal/K-VAR advertised their fire control groups as MIM which uses powdered metal that is formed under heat and pressure if I remember right.


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Link Posted: 7/13/2010 6:31:55 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/13/2010 6:32:59 PM EST by Imaposer2]
I can't say for sure. In general MIM (Metal Injection Molding) is a more modern form of casting and a superior process to investment casting, so I assumed that was what they were using. It allows much greater uniformity of parts and requires less post casting machining. It also greatly reduces the chances of inclusions and other internal flaws.

In order of part integrity for this application I would rate them

at the very top and a big #1, forged and machined

#2, good quality MIM





#3, distant third, investment casting.

I did a good bit of research a few years ago when S&W started using MIM for their revolver action parts. From what I learned and what I've been told by my company's metallurgical engineers, MIM has advantages in uniformity of small intricate parts leading to much lower production cost because you eliminate the skilled labor of machinist and parts fitters. That doesn't make it a better part, just gives great uniformity from the original parts manufacturing process and is a lot cheaper to produce intricate precision parts on a volume scale like for S&W action parts.

I am not a fan of MIM parts for high stress (trigger hooks), high wear (Engagement surfaces), or high impact (hammers) applications, i.e., S&W action parts.

In the S&W revolver actions the old forged, machined, and case hardened steel were much superior, IMO, but labor cost and market demands for lower prices lead to the introduction of MIM manufacturing processes. There have been volumes written on the subject on the S&Wforum and other places.
You can tell from the casting lines on the G2 FCG that it is some form of casting, either investment or MIM. Investment casting generally requires some post-casting machine operations, but since tolerances can be held much better with MIM much of this can be eliminated for MIM parts. Since the G2 doesn’t appear to have been through any machine operations I assumed it was MIM, but I could be wrong.

I certainly hope it is MIM and not just an investment casting process, but since MIM is a much more expensive process to set up I could be wrong.

Now you have me worried.

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Link Posted: 7/14/2010 2:29:44 AM EST
Originally Posted By Imaposer2:
Now you have me worried.


I wouldn't worry too much. There are a lot of those in service. A lot of them have been in service for a more than a few years and are being used by high volume shooters.
I don't recall even a single report of a G2 fcg failing due to breakage.

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Link Posted: 7/14/2010 5:13:03 AM EST
Just got a NIB Arsenal SGL31, and am looking at putting a Tapco G2 in it. A couple of questions, please... any advantage of double hook over single? Same price at Midway.

Also, Tapco advises some receivers aren't compatible with their product, but some posters here have put a G2 in their SLGs, so did want to ask if any problems arose when doing so.

Thanks... just got hooked on the 5.45 syndrome, and looking forward to it !

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Link Posted: 7/14/2010 5:54:18 AM EST
[Last Edit: 7/14/2010 5:55:42 AM EST by Imaposer2]
Originally Posted By Espada:
Just got a NIB Arsenal SGL31, and am looking at putting a Tapco G2 in it. A couple of questions, please... any advantage of double hook over single? Same price at Midway.



Also, Tapco advises some receivers aren't compatible with their product, but some posters here have put a G2 in their SLGs, so did want to ask if any problems arose when doing so.

Thanks... just got hooked on the 5.45 syndrome, and looking forward to it !



Just use which ever type is in the rifle now. If it is a single hook rifle the double hook won't work without modifying the receiver. Not sure if there is any real advantage to one over the other.

I thought the only receivers known to be an issue was one or two specific Nodak's. I also thought Tapco specified which ones were affected on their site. Could be wrong on both counts though.

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Link Posted: 7/14/2010 6:18:00 AM EST
[Last Edit: 7/14/2010 6:18:53 AM EST by dgposton]
Originally Posted By bloodsport2885:

Originally Posted By dgposton:
Originally Posted By POLYTHENEPAM:
Originally Posted By Mak:

Or mixing the Arsenal Hammer with the Tapco group? That may not work well



This. I probably should have quoted his question.


So what about the disconnector and hammer springs? Are these interchangeable between the two brands? I'm particularly curious as to whether the disconnector springs between Arsenal and Tapco have identical specs.
thanks!
Both brands use the military springs from overseas so they are compatible.



Interesting. So the hammer and disconnector springs are all made to some standard specification that is universal for all AKs?


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Link Posted: 7/14/2010 7:08:49 AM EST
Originally Posted By dgposton:
Originally Posted By bloodsport2885:

Originally Posted By dgposton:
Originally Posted By POLYTHENEPAM:
Originally Posted By Mak:

Or mixing the Arsenal Hammer with the Tapco group? That may not work well



This. I probably should have quoted his question.


So what about the disconnector and hammer springs? Are these interchangeable between the two brands? I'm particularly curious as to whether the disconnector springs between Arsenal and Tapco have identical specs.
thanks!
Both brands use the military springs from overseas so they are compatible.



Interesting. So the hammer and disconnector springs are all made to some standard specification that is universal for all AKs?



Pretty much, yeah. There may be small variations from country to country, and factory to factory, but they are all pretty much the same thing. Simple springs like this aren't exactly rocket science critical. A given length of a given diameter of spring wire, so many turns over a given length, coil diameter, and OAL spring length will get you close enough. Pretty standard among most AKs.


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Link Posted: 7/14/2010 9:11:20 AM EST
Originally Posted By Imaposer2:
Originally Posted By Espada:
Just got a NIB Arsenal SGL31, and am looking at putting a Tapco G2 in it. A couple of questions, please... any advantage of double hook over single? Same price at Midway.



Also, Tapco advises some receivers aren't compatible with their product, but some posters here have put a G2 in their SLGs, so did want to ask if any problems arose when doing so.

Thanks... just got hooked on the 5.45 syndrome, and looking forward to it !



Just use which ever type is in the rifle now. If it is a single hook rifle the double hook won't work without modifying the receiver. Not sure if there is any real advantage to one over the other.

I thought the only receivers known to be an issue was one or two specific Nodak's. I also thought Tapco specified which ones were affected on their site. Could be wrong on both counts though.


Thanks, and you're right about Tapco's specific caution... just wanted to hear from the wide range of experience here in case they'd missed something.


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Link Posted: 7/14/2010 12:14:25 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/14/2010 12:15:27 PM EST by dgposton]
I was just getting ready to pull out the Arsenal trigger group, and I noticed that the shepherd's crook (sp?) is somewhat different than others I've seen. Mine goes underneath the hammer pin and hooks over the trigger group pin. Here are some pics:



But others seem to be pointing the other way around. If you go here and scroll down

http://guns.wolfcrews.com/ak47/pdf_files/AKDude_Trigger_Group.pdf

you'll notice that the shepherd's crook thingie hooks over the hammer pin and underneath the trigger group pin. The non-hooked side is pointing towards the rear of the receiver. But mine is pointed towards the front of the receiver, towards the mag well.

Are there different shepherd's crook variants, and does it matter which one you use?

Thanks!

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Link Posted: 7/14/2010 1:05:21 PM EST
Yes there are different versions of the retainer wire.

I'm not exactly clear on yours, but this thread might help.

It isn't really about yours specifically but I did create a couple of diagrams and posted them to explain the best method of removing the FCG pins. Perhaps one of the ones in the diagrams will help you.

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Link Posted: 7/14/2010 8:12:53 PM EST
I immediately replace shepherd's hooks with Tapco retainer plates as soon as I get a new AK. Those shepherd hooks can be a pain in the ass. The Tapco plates are $5 at Midway USA.

I just replaced my Arsenal SGL-31's "two stage" trigger with a Tapco G2 as well. Seems like an upgrade to me. The Arsenal had a really heavy trigger pull I didn't care for. Others may love it... you never know.

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Link Posted: 7/14/2010 8:40:03 PM EST
Originally Posted By evlblkwpnz:
Are the Arsenal/K-VAR 2 stage triggers any good or durable? I just ordered some.

I have a lot of G2s and have been well pleased, but thought I'd try some 2 stages.


Long story.... go with the Tapco....

Disclaimer: I do not work for Tactical Machining, Daniel Defense, Centurion Arms, Noveske, Colt, VLTOR, AO Precision, Magpul, Giessele, Troy, Eotech, Harris, YHM, BCM, Stag, Sharp's, Lothar Walther, LMT, Tapco, or Walmart. Got all that, Sherlock?
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Link Posted: 7/15/2010 3:43:38 AM EST
Originally Posted By engineer2001:
I immediately replace shepherd's hooks with Tapco retainer plates as soon as I get a new AK. Those shepherd hooks can be a pain in the ass. The Tapco plates are $5 at Midway USA.

I just replaced my Arsenal SGL-31's "two stage" trigger with a Tapco G2 as well. Seems like an upgrade to me. The Arsenal had a really heavy trigger pull I didn't care for. Others may love it... you never know.


The plates may work well for some, but they won't work for every application.

The shephard's crook really isn't a pain in the ass like most have been lead to believe by bad instructions on how to use them properly.

If anyone is having problems with the wires just read the thread I linked to above. If you use the wires the way they were intended most of them are as easy to use as the plates and maybe even easier. Because they don't even have to be removed from the rifle, in many cases, you have one less part to remove/install.


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Link Posted: 7/15/2010 8:18:49 PM EST
Originally Posted By Imaposer2:
Originally Posted By engineer2001:
I immediately replace shepherd's hooks with Tapco retainer plates as soon as I get a new AK. Those shepherd hooks can be a pain in the ass. The Tapco plates are $5 at Midway USA.

I just replaced my Arsenal SGL-31's "two stage" trigger with a Tapco G2 as well. Seems like an upgrade to me. The Arsenal had a really heavy trigger pull I didn't care for. Others may love it... you never know.


The plates may work well for some, but they won't work for every application.

The shephard's crook really isn't a pain in the ass like most have been lead to believe by bad instructions on how to use them properly.

If anyone is having problems with the wires just read the thread I linked to above. If you use the wires the way they were intended most of them are as easy to use as the plates and maybe even easier. Because they don't even have to be removed from the rifle, in many cases, you have one less part to remove/install.



It appears that I have the Bulgarian style of shepherd's hook:

http://www.bumpfire.net/forums/showthread.php?t=939

I tried to keep it in there, but for the life of me could not figure out how the keep the shepherd's hook in there while removing the FCG. So the shepherd's hook had to come out. Now I spent at least an hour trying to get it back in. I'm about ready to give up on the shepherd's hook idea. I see now what people were talking about it being such a PITA. ImaPoser, you seemed to differ in this regard, but perhaps you have a different version than mine? I heard the Chinese version is actually decent to work with.

So the question is, if I go with a retainer plate, which one should I get? I noticed that there is a newer Tapco version floating around:

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=114844&utm_source=froogle&utm_medium=free&utm_campaign=649

and then there is the Red Star Arms version:

http://www.redstararms.com/index.htm?catalog.htm&1

Which one is preferred?

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Link Posted: 7/16/2010 6:07:20 AM EST
[Last Edit: 7/16/2010 6:12:34 AM EST by Imaposer2]
I actually have two differnent versions of retainer wires in my three AKs. Both types that I have are depicted in the diagrams that I made to show how to properly remove the FCGs and are shown in the thread I linked to above. Neither of mine are Bulgarian and I don't know how yours compares to the styles I use. I posted the instructions specific to mine and assume that a similar technique could be applied to others, but since I haven't looked at yours I don't know how they are designed to work. I just know that from all of the reading I've done, that most people don't really use the ones I have correctly and as a result have problems with them. If I could see one like yours I could tell you how to try using it, or if it would just be best to use a plate, but since I'm not familiar with the design or how it functions I can't. I do wish I could get one though because I was considering writing a how-to article/thread showing how to properly use the various types since everything I've ever read, both online and in published print, gives incorrect instructions and this seems to be causing a lot of people to have unnecessary problems and frustration. The is at least true for the versions that I have experience with.

So, if anyone has other types that they've replaced, and want to help out, you can mail me your unused wires. Once I have a sample of each to play with I'll try to do some diagrams and write some better instructions than what is commonly found.

I can't advise on the different retaining plates because I don't use them.

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Link Posted: 7/16/2010 7:38:58 AM EST
[Last Edit: 7/16/2010 7:40:04 AM EST by dgposton]
UPDATE:

After hours of hurt fingers, frustration, and even going so far as to order a Red Star Arms retainer plate, I finally got the retaining wire in there. The secret was to install the trigger group first, then hook the crook part of the retaining wire over the trigger pin, and then install the hammer while pressing down on the retaining wire so that it would go underneath the hammer pin as you are sliding it in. This last part was really tricky. I had wound the hammer spring back around the hammer and the hammer spring kept preventing the retaining wire from going into the grrove on the hammer pin. I had to use two screwdrivers––one to press down on the retaining wire to keep it down and towards the receiver wall, and another to pry the hammer spring away from the receiver wall so the retaining wire could pop into the place in the groove on the hammer pin. After about 20 minutes, mission was a success.

I had spent hours previously trying to install the hammer first, then the trigger, and then the retaining wire. I also tried hammer ––> retaining wire ––> trigger. Neither sequence worked. This is how some instructions show you to do it online, but they are apparently mistaken, at least with this kind of retaining wire.

I hope the above helps those who are trying to replace their stock Arsenal trigger with a Tapco G2 in their SGL21 or 31.

I now have to decide what to do with my Red Star Arms retainer plate if it turns out that it's too late to cancel my order.


.

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Link Posted: 7/16/2010 8:40:58 AM EST
If it really takes 20 minutes and all that frustration to install the retaining wire you're using I'd probably just switch to the retaining plate.

My wires are easy as pie when done like I described in the other thread so I see no reason to switch, but if they gave me that much trouble I woudl have switched a long time ago.

If is a good idea to detail strip the rifle on occasion for a complete cleaning and lubing, so I wouldn't want to deal with it every time.

Reading through your description of your problem I can make a suggestion that might help. From the one diagram that I have of a Bulgarian wire it sounds like you did what I would have done as far as the order of parts installation goes but, did you have the hammer spring free or still tied up behind the hammer?

On mine with the Chinese "L" wire the hammer pin is also installed last but I don't have any trouble with the hammer spring interferring with the retainong wire.

I need to find a Bulgarian wire to play around with though since looking at a drawing and actually using something can be quite different.

Glad you got it figured out and sorry I couldn't be of more help.

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Link Posted: 7/16/2010 10:08:53 AM EST
Originally Posted By dgposton:
UPDATE:

After hours of hurt fingers, frustration, and even going so far as to order a Red Star Arms retainer plate, I finally got the retaining wire in there. The secret was to install the trigger group first, then hook the crook part of the retaining wire over the trigger pin, and then install the hammer while pressing down on the retaining wire so that it would go underneath the hammer pin as you are sliding it in. This last part was really tricky. I had wound the hammer spring back around the hammer and the hammer spring kept preventing the retaining wire from going into the grrove on the hammer pin. I had to use two screwdrivers––one to press down on the retaining wire to keep it down and towards the receiver wall, and another to pry the hammer spring away from the receiver wall so the retaining wire could pop into the place in the groove on the hammer pin. After about 20 minutes, mission was a success.

I had spent hours previously trying to install the hammer first, then the trigger, and then the retaining wire. I also tried hammer ––> retaining wire ––> trigger. Neither sequence worked. This is how some instructions show you to do it online, but they are apparently mistaken, at least with this kind of retaining wire.

I hope the above helps those who are trying to replace their stock Arsenal trigger with a Tapco G2 in their SGL21 or 31.

I now have to decide what to do with my Red Star Arms retainer plate if it turns out that it's too late to cancel my order.


.


I find it's easiest to hook the legs of the hammer spring over the head of the hammer. But anywho... make sure you installed that metal sleeve that comes with the G2. It's required for theFCG to function. Trust me on this, 1st time I ever installed one I left it out and had hammer follow.
Regards,
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Link Posted: 7/16/2010 10:52:32 AM EST
[Last Edit: 7/16/2010 10:58:46 AM EST by dgposton]
Originally Posted By Imaposer2:
If it really takes 20 minutes and all that frustration to install the retaining wire you're using I'd probably just switch to the retaining plate.

My wires are easy as pie when done like I described in the other thread so I see no reason to switch, but if they gave me that much trouble I woudl have switched a long time ago.

If is a good idea to detail strip the rifle on occasion for a complete cleaning and lubing, so I wouldn't want to deal with it every time.

Reading through your description of your problem I can make a suggestion that might help. From the one diagram that I have of a Bulgarian wire it sounds like you did what I would have done as far as the order of parts installation goes but, did you have the hammer spring free or still tied up behind the hammer?

On mine with the Chinese "L" wire the hammer pin is also installed last but I don't have any trouble with the hammer spring interferring with the retainong wire.

I need to find a Bulgarian wire to play around with though since looking at a drawing and actually using something can be quite different.

Glad you got it figured out and sorry I couldn't be of more help.


Well, my order from Red Star Arms shipped already, so if anyone wants a retaining plate for a cheap price, let me know. I guess I could just keep it for future detail stripping, but I really feel like an AK doesn't need that kind of detail stripping to function properly––-at least I can't see a typical Russian soldier fooling around with it.

To answer your question about the hammer, I had the spring tied behind the hammer when installing it and setting the retaining wire underneath it in the hammer pin groove. I suppose that tying the spring behind the hammer has the disadvantage of wrapping more hammer spring around the hammer and so maybe contributing to more interference with the retaining wire in getting into the groove, but I'm not sure how you'd install the hammer otherwise. It seems like if the springs weren't wrapped around it that way, it would create undesirable tension and make it harder to install.

One question––I noticed after installation that there is some side to side play on the trigger pin. Is this normal? The hammer pin seems a bit more secure, although there is some very slight movement as well. Of course, I don't notice this during dry fire, just when I push on the pin with my finger. How do I tell if there is cause for concern?

Finally, now that I have the bloody thing installed, I was wondering if there is anything I can/should do (aside from shooting the gun or tons of dry fire) to improve the G2 trigger further. Of course, this would mean disassembly again, so maybe it's a mute question.

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Link Posted: 7/16/2010 11:24:44 AM EST
Originally Posted By dgposton:
Finally, now that I have the bloody thing installed, I was wondering if there is anything I can/should do (aside from shooting the gun or tons of dry fire) to improve the G2 trigger further. Of course, this would mean disassembly again, so maybe it's a mute question.[/span][span style='font-size: 14pt;'][/span][span style='font-family: Lucida Console;'][/span]


People have used a stone or a polishing wheel to smooth the mating surfaces of the hook and the hammer.
Personally, I haven't bothered. I don't feel a semiautomatic carbine needs a trigger with a pull less than 3 pounds.


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Link Posted: 7/16/2010 12:02:58 PM EST
Originally Posted By Imaposer2:
Originally Posted By Espada:
Just got a NIB Arsenal SGL31, and am looking at putting a Tapco G2 in it. A couple of questions, please... any advantage of double hook over single? Same price at Midway.



Also, Tapco advises some receivers aren't compatible with their product, but some posters here have put a G2 in their SLGs, so did want to ask if any problems arose when doing so.

Thanks... just got hooked on the 5.45 syndrome, and looking forward to it !



Just use which ever type is in the rifle now. If it is a single hook rifle the double hook won't work without modifying the receiver. Not sure if there is any real advantage to one over the other.

I thought the only receivers known to be an issue was one or two specific Nodak's. I also thought Tapco specified which ones were affected on their site. Could be wrong on both counts though.


You don't modify the receiver, you modify the trigger group. I ordered a single hook for my SGL-21 but they sent me a double hook. Instead of waiting for a new one to be sent I just dremeled off one of the hooks and contoured it so that it doesn't touch the receiver when the trigger is pulled, works just fine.

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Link Posted: 7/16/2010 12:33:11 PM EST
Originally Posted By SKS_Lover:
Originally Posted By Imaposer2:
Originally Posted By Espada:
Just got a NIB Arsenal SGL31, and am looking at putting a Tapco G2 in it. A couple of questions, please... any advantage of double hook over single? Same price at Midway.



Also, Tapco advises some receivers aren't compatible with their product, but some posters here have put a G2 in their SLGs, so did want to ask if any problems arose when doing so.

Thanks... just got hooked on the 5.45 syndrome, and looking forward to it !



Just use which ever type is in the rifle now. If it is a single hook rifle the double hook won't work without modifying the receiver. Not sure if there is any real advantage to one over the other.

I thought the only receivers known to be an issue was one or two specific Nodak's. I also thought Tapco specified which ones were affected on their site. Could be wrong on both counts though.


You don't modify the receiver, you modify the trigger group. I ordered a single hook for my SGL-21 but they sent me a double hook. Instead of waiting for a new one to be sent I just dremeled off one of the hooks and contoured it so that it doesn't touch the receiver when the trigger is pulled, works just fine.


Well yeah, of course I guess you could modify the trigger but he was asking which type he needed to buy. The double hook won't work in a rifle designed for the single hook because the trigger opening in the bottom of the receiver is different. A single hook receiver can be modified to accept double hook trgger groups if you so desire, but yeah, I guess you can modify a double hook trigger into a single hook trigger. I've never used a single hook personally so I don't know if there are any differences in hammer hook web thickness though. Since I don't have experience with it and don't know if it would be safe I wouldn't recommend it. But, if you know there are no differences and that it will work just fine then I suppose it is an option if it become necessary. Just never considered it quite that way since I just order what I need and haven't received the wrong type.


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Link Posted: 7/16/2010 4:12:31 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/16/2010 4:20:16 PM EST by Dferg10]
I have fired a few friends' Arsenal rifles, but have not owned one. Every one that I fired was smooth and very nice. I have a Maadi that I 922r -ed with a Tapco G2 FCG. I really do like it. The rifle did not have any slap issues prior to the conversion and the FCG was great, but I have no regrets with the swap. I have a Draco with one too. I give the TAPCO G2 FCG a high rating. It is every bit as smooth and trouble free as the preban Norinco 56S I have.


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Link Posted: 7/18/2010 4:56:36 PM EST
Originally Posted By squirrell18:
I love my tapco trigger that is already installed in my Norinco MAK-90, it gives me 3 parts for 922(r). Trigger is easy to install.


Did you have to do any modification and/or buffing or did it drop right in?

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Link Posted: 7/18/2010 5:47:05 PM EST
I put a G2 in a build I did. I looked at both and had some concerns about with the cheaper G2, but wow- do I love that setup!!

The first time I fired my build it went off before I though it was going to because it's so smooth (yes- my rifle was pointed downrange at my target). I have 2 other SAR1s and am going to get G2s for them as well.

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