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Posted: 5/8/2017 9:03:06 PM EDT
[#1]
I was going to ask about Hornady. Is there any other decent American jhp defense type loads?
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Posted: 5/8/2017 9:06:47 PM EDT
[#2]
Yup, 8M3 from SGAMMO, just like you mentioned.
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Posted: 5/8/2017 10:01:29 PM EDT
[#3]
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Posted: 5/9/2017 2:55:33 AM EDT
[#4]
Best options are still Federal Fusion and Winchester PDX-1 Defender, the Fusion being cheaper than the PDX-1 on average.
8M3 is a good go-to cheap option. Check bluefalcon's thread for gel test vids: http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_4_54/159187_7-62x39mm-ballistic-gelatin-test-videos--updated-1-8-17-.html |
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Posted: 5/9/2017 4:31:15 AM EDT
[#5]
I've killed deer with both the Federal Fusion and the Hornady SST loading. Both did a good job. I think either one would be a reliable option for your circumstances. Just my anecdotal experience.
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Posted: 5/9/2017 2:58:57 PM EDT
[#6]
U.S. manufacture--PDX1 or Fusion. The Hornady SST would seem to perform better for hunting, but would work just fine, and YMMV.
Combloc ammo--Tula 8M3 or Yugo M67. All are the best performing of the ammo we get in this country that is readily available for retail purchase. All will require you NOT to shoot in the direction of sleeping children or guests. ANY ammo worth having that will punch holes in a BG will punch holes through several walls. I keep the Comblock choices loaded for SD/HD, and have the same freedom as you. Closest neighbor is over 100 yards and the next 2 are close to 200. Happy Shopping |
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Posted: 5/9/2017 9:08:16 PM EDT
[#7]
Thanks for all the replies!
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Posted: 5/9/2017 10:18:38 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
All will require you NOT to shoot in the direction of sleeping children or guests. ANY ammo worth having that will punch holes in a BG will punch holes through several walls. I had a bit of a woopsie ND moment one time on the top floor of a 2-story house with basement that I used to own, and the Golden Tiger 7.62 went through two floors/ceilings, two walls, a hollow core wooden door, a real wood door frame, and still made a big dent in the top side of a horizontal steel support beam in the basement. That's 4 sheets of sheetrock, a 2x4 stud, some wooden door trim, two sheets of plywood flooring, and a hollow core door and still dimpled a steel beam. Normal AK ammo is way overpowered for home defense use, in my opinion, unless you live alone in the middle of a vast plot of land or always shoot downward and don't mind shooting through multiple levels of house to get the bad guys. |
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Posted: 5/10/2017 2:31:56 AM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This. I would be thinking pistol caliber or shotgun for home defense. I remember Rob Ski and Paul commenting in one of their videos the same thing. It went like, "what happens when you use an AK for home defense? You shoot through your house and into your neighbor's house." Even at 100 or 200 yards, can you be sure it won't penetrate an exterior wall at the right trajectory to get to the neighbor's house? I had a bit of a woopsie ND moment one time on the top floor of a 2-story house with basement that I used to own, and the Golden Tiger 7.62 went through two floors/ceilings, two walls, a hollow core wooden door, a real wood door frame, and still made a big dent in the top side of a horizontal steel support beam in the basement. That's 4 sheets of sheetrock, a 2x4 stud, some wooden door trim, two sheets of plywood flooring, and a hollow core door and still dimpled a steel beam. Normal AK ammo is way overpowered for home defense use, in my opinion, unless you live alone in the middle of a vast plot of land or always shoot downward and don't mind shooting through multiple levels of house to get the bad guys. 
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Posted: 5/10/2017 10:58:25 AM EDT
[#10]
I am a carpenter by trade and built some shoot through walls for my dads PD to test their carry ammo. (Some time ago; non formal testing). Drywall, siding, insulation, studs and masonry. After seeing their results I would be much more comfortable using a soft HP or tipped bullet out of a ak than a pistol or shotgun. 00 buck, #4 buck, and 230gr Gold dot(45ACP) will likleyvmake it out of your house, no problem. These rounds were worse than .556 ball and even 308GM OTM rounds. The most surprising was the 230gr GD. It would fill up an penetrate with very little divergence. I think a shotgun or pistol is greatly overblown in HD roles.
Any round you fire your house cannot be counted on to not penetrate. My children are young yet have been taught that if they hear glass break or my voice to hide under their beds. Their room is right next to master bedroom. And the fallback point. Rounds should be kept high; family members should be kept low. |
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Posted: 5/10/2017 3:43:11 PM EDT
[#11]
I have ammunition in case I decide to use the AK for HD but I do live in a traditional subdivision. I normally figure on using pistols or a pistol caliber carbine (.40). My HD AK ammo is either Tula 154 gr SP or PPU 123 gr round-nose soft point. My AK for this purpose is an AMD 65 with 11 1/2" barrel so velocities are going to be lower than a 16". Still, this is 'big medicine' for anybody or anything coming through the door. I particularly like the PPU round-nose soft point - its shaped like a pistol bullet which should make it harder-hitting and less penetrating. The Tula 154gr Soft Point is slower to start with than regular 123gr ammo and the short barrel takes away more velocity, so really this one is probably technically the best for HD. I would use this in a 20" SKS for a hard-hitting hog/deer round.
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Posted: 5/10/2017 4:21:34 PM EDT
[#12]
8m3 is a proven stopper and will penetrate less than other flavors. The only source I know of for 8m3 is SGammo.
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Posted: 5/10/2017 4:31:13 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Pistol, PCC, and shotgun are all still problematic indoors: http://www.ar15.com/ammo/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/DocGKRData/WoundProfilesAfterWallBarrier.jpg 
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Posted: 5/11/2017 10:04:16 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Bullets and wound channels are for rookies. Keep a bowl of these on your night stand. http://i.imgur.com/m0BLlX6.jpg 
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Posted: 5/11/2017 10:42:29 PM EDT
[#15]
double
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Posted: 11/12/2017 10:44:42 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I have ammunition in case I decide to use the AK for HD but I do live in a traditional subdivision. I normally figure on using pistols or a pistol caliber carbine (.40). My HD AK ammo is either Tula 154 gr SP or PPU 123 gr round-nose soft point. My AK for this purpose is an AMD 65 with 11 1/2" barrel so velocities are going to be lower than a 16". Still, this is 'big medicine' for anybody or anything coming through the door. I particularly like the PPU round-nose soft point - its shaped like a pistol bullet which should make it harder-hitting and less penetrating. The Tula 154gr Soft Point is slower to start with than regular 123gr ammo and the short barrel takes away more velocity, so really this one is probably technically the best for HD. I would use this in a 20" SKS for a hard-hitting hog/deer round. With rifles, slower often means deeper penetration. Test it for yourself. OP I'd test 8m3 for reliability, then choose that if it doesn't hang up. If it does, file your bullet guide a little, then retest until it's reliable with hp's. |
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Posted: 12/2/2017 4:04:16 PM EDT
[#17]
Any of the soft point ammo will do fine. I use Fusion. Some of you guys really need to do some research and come into the 21st century. There is reams of data which prove the rifle is the best home defense firearm today. Pistols and shotguns penetrate just as much as a rifle and in some cases more. Even the NRA came out with a couple of articles on the rifle for home defense.
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Posted: 12/2/2017 4:19:38 PM EDT
[#18]
The Hornady SST loaded in the steel case is a heck of a decent combo....item #8078 is a box of 50. Picked up a few boxes at $31 each no too long ago locally. The Hornady ZombieMax...I dunno if that is the same SST bullet or not.
Then there is always the Federal Fusion, that load is quite decent from what I hear and just might be a brass case....if that matters to you. |
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Posted: 12/5/2017 1:41:45 PM EDT
[#19]
AK for HD, you must live in very big house. IMO shotgun do better, the new mossberg and remington 14 barrel with the bird head end and low recoil BB shot. This works for me has I have kids in other rooms. BB shot pros: slow down quickly as soon at it hits the drywall,
more lead shot more pellets and very hard to sew up hamburger meat at the ER. you luck |
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Posted: 12/5/2017 4:35:10 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
AK for HD, you must live in very big house. IMO shotgun do better, the new mossberg and remington 14 barrel with the bird head end and low recoil BB shot. This works for me has I have kids in other rooms. BB shot pros: slow down quickly as soon at it hits the drywall, more lead shot more pellets and very hard to sew up hamburger meat at the ER. you luck 
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Posted: 12/21/2017 5:47:28 PM EDT
[#21]
#4 Buck is as small as I'd go for two leg targets.
The only perfect choice for home defense is a war hammer. |
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Posted: 2/19/2018 11:19:38 AM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: With rifles, slower often means deeper penetration. Test it for yourself. OP I'd test 8m3 for reliability, then choose that if it doesn't hang up. If it does, file your bullet guide a little, then retest until it's reliable with hp's. Slower moving but heavier projectiles usually penetrate more than faster, but lighter, ones due to their superior conservation of momentum. It's retained momentum, rather than "energy" that determines penetration. |
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Posted: 3/4/2018 5:44:14 PM EDT
[#23]
I bought a bunch of zombie max on sale, and its loaded up for home defense. Admittedly, its stashed in a spare bedroom, and I'm unlikely to use it.
I think I have 2 30 round mags of it, and a drum of M67 sitting on the shelf next to an underfolder. |
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Posted: 3/18/2018 8:34:43 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yeah, I know I'm answering a post that's several months old but: Slower moving but heavier projectiles usually penetrate more than faster, but lighter, ones due to their superior conservation of momentum. It's retained momentum, rather than "energy" that determines penetration. |
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Posted: 3/20/2018 8:12:47 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That's a bit crazy. Its easy to see how a very fast bullet might tend to go to pieces, limiting penetration, where the same bullet a little slower might actually let it penetrate more. But if the premise is true, the bigger the bullet and the slower you send it would equal increased penetration - that formula quickly leads to big, slow bullets that don't penetrate. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: Yeah, I know I'm answering a post that's several months old but: Slower moving but heavier projectiles usually penetrate more than faster, but lighter, ones due to their superior conservation of momentum. It's retained momentum, rather than "energy" that determines penetration. Of course, there's a point at which insufficient projectile terminal velocity renders it ineffective, but take another look at this previously graphic. 
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Posted: 3/27/2018 1:49:46 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Bullets and wound channels are for rookies. Keep a bowl of these on your night stand. http://i.imgur.com/m0BLlX6.jpg 
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Posted: 3/29/2018 11:04:52 AM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
AK for HD, you must live in very big house. IMO shotgun do better, the new mossberg and remington 14 barrel with the bird head end and low recoil BB shot. This works for me has I have kids in other rooms. BB shot pros: slow down quickly as soon at it hits the drywall, more lead shot more pellets and very hard to sew up hamburger meat at the ER. you luck If he has a home invasion by geese or doves maybe a shotgun. It is a horrible choice otherwise.Heavy ammo, hard to aim accurately, slow to reload, poor performance on target and even less performance out of a short barrel with low recoil ammunition. This all sounds like horrible reasons to choose a shotgun. Rifle, pistol , shotgun, That order. |
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Posted: 3/29/2018 9:26:39 PM EDT
[#28]
8m3 or I also like soft points in 7.62x39.
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Posted: 5/29/2018 1:36:03 PM EDT
[#29]
I've loaded up on Tula/Ulyanavosk 8m3 because I've found it to be accurate, perfectly reliable in my rifles, and not much more expensive than the 123 grain Wolf Polyformance FMJ I've been shooting and stacking.
Now I'm shooting the same ammunition for practice that I would use for self defense in my home. 8m3 at close range will definitely spoil a home invader's day. |
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Posted: 5/29/2018 4:10:31 PM EDT
[#30]
Hornady SST factory steel case has proven to be very accurate and reliable from my 7.62x39 AR, and I see no reason it would prove reliable in an AK. I'd definitely suggest trying some to see how it performs in your rifle.
I have shot deer with other intermediate AR type cartridges loaded with SST's, and from personal experience the deer have gone down fast and field dressing results show some impressive damage on the way through. I purchased my 7.62x39 AR upper strictly as a hunting rifle, but if I found myself in a situation where I needed it as a defensive weapon I have no doubt the Hornady SST would be sufficient for 2-legged varmints. |
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Posted: 6/19/2018 9:30:51 PM EDT
[#31]
Pistols are for concealing. Shotguns are for breaching. Carbines are for fighting.
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Posted: 6/19/2018 11:21:32 PM EDT
[#32]
This thread has been informative to me. I was considering a 300BO subsonic.
1. Good mass and energy 2. Less sound with a suppressor 3. Tolerates a shorter barrel, ballistically However if that results in over penetration, then that’s not good. |
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Posted: 6/22/2018 1:17:45 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This thread has been informative to me. I was considering a 300BO subsonic. 1. Good mass and energy 2. Less sound with a suppressor 3. Tolerates a shorter barrel, ballistically However if that results in over penetration, then that’s not good. |
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Posted: 10/26/2018 11:00:07 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This thread has been informative to me. I was considering a 300BO subsonic. 1. Good mass and energy 2. Less sound with a suppressor 3. Tolerates a shorter barrel, ballistically However if that results in over penetration, then that’s not good. |
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Posted: 10/26/2018 11:26:03 PM EDT
[#35]
I load the Hornaday 123 gr Interlock SST for my 7.62x39mm. I have it zip a little bit hotter than factory, works very well at hitting what I aim at.
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Posted: 11/4/2018 9:19:21 PM EDT
[#36]
Recent testing of currently available 8m3, as well as the examination of cross sectioned bullets, has raised doubt as to whether it is actually real 8m3 effect ammunition, or simply another non expanding hollow point that's been labeled 8m3.
According to what I've seen on The Files, the fragmentation results depicted in The Chopping Block 8m3 video haven't been reproducible in other testing. |
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Posted: 11/5/2018 1:20:46 AM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This thread has been informative to me. I was considering a 300BO subsonic. 1. Good mass and energy 2. Less sound with a suppressor 3. Tolerates a shorter barrel, ballistically However if that results in over penetration, then that’s not good. That said, you could use an AK pistol with a suppressor as well, since 7.62x39 still performs well out of short barrels. I'd say give 7.62x39 Winchester PDX-1 or it's cheaper cousin, Federal Fusion a shot. |
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Posted: 2/25/2019 1:58:38 AM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Recent testing of currently available 8m3, as well as the examination of cross sectioned bullets, has raised doubt as to whether it is actually real 8m3 effect ammunition, or simply another non expanding hollow point that's been labeled 8m3. According to what I've seen on The Files, the fragmentation results depicted in The Chopping Block 8m3 video haven't been reproducible in other testing. do you have a link to the thread on the files? was trying to find it because i wanted to get a case of 8m3 but heard it might not actually be 8m3. |
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Posted: 2/25/2019 7:59:44 AM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
@America-first do you have a link to the thread on the files? was trying to find it because i wanted to get a case of 8m3 but heard it might not actually be 8m3. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Recent testing of currently available 8m3, as well as the examination of cross sectioned bullets, has raised doubt as to whether it is actually real 8m3 effect ammunition, or simply another non expanding hollow point that's been labeled 8m3. According to what I've seen on The Files, the fragmentation results depicted in The Chopping Block 8m3 video haven't been reproducible in other testing. do you have a link to the thread on the files? was trying to find it because i wanted to get a case of 8m3 but heard it might not actually be 8m3. This may be what you're looking for. There was more than one thread regarding 8m3 not being any different from any other 7.62x39 hollowpoint. http://50.97.136.44/forums/showthread.php?t=356714 |
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Posted: 3/6/2019 7:56:04 AM EDT
[#40]
I bought a case that is an early lot (p11) of the Tula "8M3". So not sure if I got lucky with rounds that were actually loaded with an 8M3 bullet. I wish Andrew would do a retest with ammo from the newer lots to see what is happening. I've been following the threads on the files with interest. The tests that have transpired are eye opening but nothing in terms of a calibrated gel test, IIFC.
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Posted: 12/31/2019 5:36:53 PM EDT
[#41]
Fusion.
Fusion is a bonded soft point and the .223 version is rumored to be the same thing as Gold Dot. There has been a great deal of testing done for bonded soft points in general and I tested Fusion specifically with a windshield (link below). If I kept a 7.62x39mm rifle for home defense, I would load it with Fusion without hesitation. I can't comment on barrier performance, but in bare gel, these are also good: 123gr TSX 123gr SST Virtually any other soft point, including the Russian stuff. Every single Russian soft point I have tested in any caliber has performed well. 8m3 is likely sufficient for home defense distances but it probably won't do well through barriers and it likely won't frag well after 100 yards or so. Any rifle bullet will yaw. M67 and Golden Tiger have a reputation for yawing early, but in one of my tests Silver Bear actually had a pretty early yaw. I would not choose any FMJ or Russian hollow point for defense in this caliber. Soft point is close enough in price that there's no reason to buy FMJ so long as your rifle can run soft point.  Is This The Best Barrier Blind AK & AR Ammo? .223 & 7.62x39mm Fusion Windshield Test |
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Posted: 12/31/2019 5:42:17 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This. I would be thinking pistol caliber or shotgun for home defense. I remember Rob Ski and Paul commenting in one of their videos the same thing. It went like, "what happens when you use an AK for home defense? You shoot through your house and into your neighbor's house." Even at 100 or 200 yards, can you be sure it won't penetrate an exterior wall at the right trajectory to get to the neighbor's house? I had a bit of a woopsie ND moment one time on the top floor of a 2-story house with basement that I used to own, and the Golden Tiger 7.62 went through two floors/ceilings, two walls, a hollow core wooden door, a real wood door frame, and still made a big dent in the top side of a horizontal steel support beam in the basement. That's 4 sheets of sheetrock, a 2x4 stud, some wooden door trim, two sheets of plywood flooring, and a hollow core door and still dimpled a steel beam. Normal AK ammo is way overpowered for home defense use, in my opinion, unless you live alone in the middle of a vast plot of land or always shoot downward and don't mind shooting through multiple levels of house to get the bad guys. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
All will require you NOT to shoot in the direction of sleeping children or guests. ANY ammo worth having that will punch holes in a BG will punch holes through several walls. I had a bit of a woopsie ND moment one time on the top floor of a 2-story house with basement that I used to own, and the Golden Tiger 7.62 went through two floors/ceilings, two walls, a hollow core wooden door, a real wood door frame, and still made a big dent in the top side of a horizontal steel support beam in the basement. That's 4 sheets of sheetrock, a 2x4 stud, some wooden door trim, two sheets of plywood flooring, and a hollow core door and still dimpled a steel beam. Normal AK ammo is way overpowered for home defense use, in my opinion, unless you live alone in the middle of a vast plot of land or always shoot downward and don't mind shooting through multiple levels of house to get the bad guys. ANY ammo worth having that will punch holes in a BG will punch holes through several walls. Rule #4: Be sure of your target and what is beyond. This problem can't be solved by choosing a different caliber. You WILL miss in a fight. Those shots WILL pass through multiple walls. Choose the best weapon for the fight. Train hard. Solve the problem as best you can. Maybe that means you have to move laterally or take a knee before it's safe to shoot. |
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Posted: 12/31/2019 5:46:32 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I have ammunition in case I decide to use the AK for HD but I do live in a traditional subdivision. I normally figure on using pistols or a pistol caliber carbine (.40). My HD AK ammo is either Tula 154 gr SP or PPU 123 gr round-nose soft point. My AK for this purpose is an AMD 65 with 11 1/2" barrel so velocities are going to be lower than a 16". Still, this is 'big medicine' for anybody or anything coming through the door. I particularly like the PPU round-nose soft point - its shaped like a pistol bullet which should make it harder-hitting and less penetrating. The Tula 154gr Soft Point is slower to start with than regular 123gr ammo and the short barrel takes away more velocity, so really this one is probably technically the best for HD. I would use this in a 20" SKS for a hard-hitting hog/deer round. |
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Posted: 12/31/2019 5:55:46 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted: @SurtrsFire This may be what you're looking for. There was more than one thread regarding 8m3 not being any different from any other 7.62x39 hollowpoint. http://50.97.136.44/forums/showthread.php?t=356714 |
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