I tested the zero on my PAP M92 SBR recently and was disappointed when I saw an impact shift of about an inch high and right at 25 yards. There were several variables (time of day, a pretty extreme ambient temperature change, etc), so I know I need to shoot it a couple more times and eliminate the variables.

I used the same ammo both times, Tula FMJ, but I'm thinking the consistency of the ammo leaves something to be desired. So even when I eliminate the above variables, I'm guessing I should use higher quality ammo to eliminate that variable as well.

All that said, can anyone recommend ammo that is higher quality than the stuff I was using, enough to remove the ammo as a variable? I don't mind shooting cheap steel case stuff for snap drills and the like, but when I'm testing accuracy I want something better. I don't mind if it costs a little more, because I don't shoot a lot of it.

You should ZERO for what you shoot, not zero with Hornady and shoot with Wolf or Tula...

Rmpl

When first started reloading, I thought it would be nice if I could get good enough to do production quality reloading.
That didn't last long because a blind monkey could reload to production quality standards. I found quick that if I watch what I'm doing I can reload way better than any production line could ever attempt. I have done some rounds with only 2 to 3 ft per sec difference in a box of 50. That makes 5 round groups easy with only one hole. In fact the first gun I sighted in with my reloads I thought was messed up because I fired 5 rounds & only hit the target one time. That is until I got up & walked out to take a close look at the target it had 5 little arcs making a hole about 3/8 dia.
Production quality depends on kind of ammo & the price you pay.
Tula ammo, you are lucky if it fires, luckier if it cycles without getting stuck in the chamber.

FTFY

Zero for what you shoot when it matters, I.E. zero with your defensive (or duty) ammo. Shooting inexpensive training ammo with a slightly different point of impact is fine.

That's an interesting take. Makes sense for precision target shooting. What would you say about defensive/duty rounds? Some people say "never use reloads for defense." Sounds like you'd have more confidence in your stuff than production ammo.

This.

Always zero the ammo that you want to be on target in a sticky situation(defense,shtf,etc)

Lets say you have several mags of Fusion for a defense use then zero with the Fusion ammo.It wont take much to get it zeroed in.

Then shoot your plinking ,training ammo as your not going to be that critical if its off by a little.

The reason you don't want to reload for personal protection is if you ever have to use your gun with reloads the prosecutor will try to say you reloaded just to kill. Like you did something special to make your reloads more deadly. It would be real hard to defend from the claims others would make.

Golden Tiger prints pretty well for cheap imported ammo and is good for any use. But, what everybody is saying is true; zero with the ammo you plan to use. Every time you change brands/types of ammo you have to re-zero. In the military, they re-zero (if practical to do so) even with a different lot of the same ammo. Also, the Tula should not have given you a group off-center from where you shot with it last time. The variability of ammo doesn't work that way. Once you sight in with a certain ammo, the groups should always hit around the same center but the group size may be large. Sounds to me like you experienced a change to the ammo, the rifle or the sighting system. Do you have 500 or more rounds on the rifle?

I have 509 rounds through it. My problem was too many variables. I wasn't even keeping strict track of what ammo I was using. It could have been some Tula and some Wolf. I will fix this by shooting GT or BB from the same lot and by normalizing the other variables such as temperature, time of day, color of my socks, etc.

The original question was regarding what ammo is sufficiently reliable for me to verify zero from week to week, but not too expensive. I have some PDX1 which I'm confident would be reliable, but at $1.50 per round, it's too spendy to use as test ammo.

This thread has gone a little stray, but I don't mind. I'll contribute my thoughts on the target vs defensive ammo. I'm zeroing with PDX1 (which I will designate as defensive) and will shoot through a mag of it sometimes (annually?). My training ammo will be either GT or BB. After I zero with the PDX1, I'll see which training ammo is closer to the PDX1 on paper, then probably consolidate on that brand for training ammo.

Just no

That sounds reasonable to me.

As an update, I've been out a couple times in warmer weather since starting this thread. Once I began controlling the variables better, the differences in ammo became more apparent (as I thought they would).

This is just not true . I challenge you to find a case where this is an issue

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile

Every warning I've ever heard against using reloads for defense has been regarding reliability. I was hoping Paintballer would elaborate because it sounded like he had a different point of view (IE the lack-of-jury-appeal argument, essentially the same reason some people say to use a revolver or a shotgun for home defense instead of an AR with the Punisher logo on the magwell). I don't necessarily buy into that argument, but I was interested to hear what he had to say. Whiskerz took a more direct approach.

Personally, I think PDX1 is the bee's knees, so that's my choice.

Help me understand why you don't want to zero your file with the ammo you'll be using?

I mean, confidence comes from running a lot of rounds through your weapon. If you're shooting Tula at the range and have BrandX prepared for the zombie invasion, there's a chance BrandX has some quirks.

Zero your rifle with what you plan to run. An AK's reputation is due to it's reliability not accuracy. It IS reliable for the most part because it isn't accurate.

Imho, shoot the cheap shit at the range, but before leaving the range, run a box of your good stuff through it to check function.

If you're looking for tighter groups to impress someone, it basically ends up being you get what you pay for. Try some brass commercial rounds >50c round. Brass will seal the chamber better than steel adding to your consistency.

After I think about it a little more, trying to get consistency from shooting a rifle round through a pistol barrel seems to be an exercise in futility isn't it? Shoot it at night and you can see why it's not going to be very accurate.....

Enjoy

Your response gives me the impression you didn't read the thread. Many of your questions are directly addressed above.

Also, zeroing a rifle and testing whether or not a rifle is holding zero are different things. My question was about the latter, which can be done with any ammo of sufficient quality to maintain repeatability. Maintaining zero can be verified by checking for point of impact shifts even when your shot group isn't on the X, which it may not be if you've zeroed with one type of ammo and are testing with another. The trick is to ensure the point of impact isn't shifting around over time while using the same ammo.

The reason to do this is to save money. This type of test might be run often when building a rifle (as I am) and would be prohibitively expensive to do with PDX1. The question was about which type of ammo is cheap enough to use often, but quality enough to supply the necessary consistency.

IOW, doesn't matter if you hit the X as long as the group doesn't move around. Only matters if you hit the X with your defensive ammo. In my case, PDX1.

I believe I understand what you mean by this, but there is a sense in which I disagree. While it is true that reliability and accuracy are in some ways at opposite ends of a sliding scale, statements like yours sometimes imply the AK platform is incapable of acceptable accuracy. I say "acceptable accuracy" because the term "accurate" is relative. The question is how accurate do you need your rifle to be?

Also, I never understand why people sometimes treat AK accuracy questions as if they are worthless. The AK is plenty accurate for my use case. Plus, even if I was shooting a civil war era cannon, I'd still want to have as firm a grasp as possible on its accuracy potential.

Impress someone? No.

No. M92's have a 10" barrel. Not exactly what I would call a pistol barrel (AR/AK "pistols" notwithstanding). Also, the merits of a longer barrel for accuracy are subject to diminishing returns at much shorter lengths than are commonly thought. The difference in accuracy potential between a 10" and 16" is far smaller than other more important factors, like operator ability. Longer barrels do offer some advantages for accuracy, but not to the extent that shorter barrels should be considered inaccurate.

Never tried this. I'd like to though.

FWIW, here is a photo of one 3-round group from last week. This is Wolf Mil Classic, which is not what the rifle is zeroed on, hence the impact shift to the right. The point of interest is the 25 yard group size. Multiply this by 4 and you get an idea of the rifle's accuracy potential in MOA. My guess 3 MOA or better.

I'm not getting what you're after but that's ok.

If you want the best ammo you can get, you need to reload. Different brass, different powders, different bullets, even different loads of the same powder and bullet combination all affect performance.

YOU have to decide what is cheap and good enough.

And don't extrapolate your 25 yard short range results into longer ranges, you're fooling yourself.

Cheers

Also 10 shoot groups are more useful than 3

I thought I was getting what you're after but now I realize I'm not getting it at all. You seem to be taking a simple matter and trying to make it difficult. Decide on the best ammo you can afford that suits your needs for the rifle and zero with it. Learn how to shoot better and reduce your group sizes. At least every year make sure you, the rifle and the ammo are still on the same page. When the time comes to take up the rifle and use it, all will be ready. Easy.

It's not complicated. I am doing what you describe.This thread just went in a few unexpected directions.

The original question came from a situation I found myself in where I was doing major work on my rifle during the build process and as a result having to zero (or test zero) every weekend. With my chosen ammo (PDX1), that was expensive. So I had to pick something else cheaper.

FWIW, I've got my answer.