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Posted: 3/21/2015 5:40:56 AM EDT
[#1]
People bitched to the for years to get rid of the lacquer as many maroons bought into the myth that the lacquer melted and gummed up chambers.
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Posted: 3/21/2015 6:24:29 AM EDT
[#2]
lol....wut???
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Posted: 3/21/2015 7:08:04 AM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
People bitched to the for years to get rid of the lacquer as many maroons bought into the myth that the lacquer melted and gummed up chambers. It would frequently stick if left in a hot chamber. Happened more than once to me. I'm not hatin'. I love Wolf, it's all I shoot. |
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Posted: 3/21/2015 10:48:02 AM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
People bitched to the for years to get rid of the lacquer as many maroons bought into the myth that the lacquer melted and gummed up chambers. This is how I understand it. American shooter complained, suppliers responded. |
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Posted: 3/21/2015 12:08:32 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It would frequently stick if left in a hot chamber. Happened more than once to me. I'm not hatin'. I love Wolf, it's all I shoot. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
People bitched to the for years to get rid of the lacquer as many maroons bought into the myth that the lacquer melted and gummed up chambers. It would frequently stick if left in a hot chamber. Happened more than once to me. I'm not hatin'. I love Wolf, it's all I shoot. I have had brass stick in hot chambers before too. In neither case is it due to the lacquer or lack of lacquer. |
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Posted: 3/21/2015 12:55:01 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It would frequently stick if left in a hot chamber. Happened more than once to me. I'm not hatin'. I love Wolf, it's all I shoot. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
People bitched to the for years to get rid of the lacquer as many maroons bought into the myth that the lacquer melted and gummed up chambers. It would frequently stick if left in a hot chamber. Happened more than once to me. I'm not hatin'. I love Wolf, it's all I shoot. The "lacquer" doesn't melt, can't even get it to with a torch. Steel cases don't expand like brass does, leading to less of a seal than brass would create, resulting in more carbon buildup in the chamber. More info - http://www.theboxotruth.com/educational-zone-18-shooting-wolf-steel-cased-ammo-in-an-ar15/ |
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Posted: 3/21/2015 3:28:38 PM EDT
[#7]
As I remember it, most of the complaints and "noise" came from .223 shooters.
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Posted: 3/21/2015 10:39:07 PM EDT
[#8]
1) Wolf buys and then resells ammo, they don't make it.
2) I've never had any problem with "rusting poly coated unsealed crap". I have thousands of rounds stockpiled and none of it looks any worse than the day I bought it. Granted, polymer coating the cases is less effective than laquer coatings, but ultimately it has more to do with the way you store it. And, to tell you the truth, I hear/see/read far fewer original incidents of rusting polymer than I do people on message boards repeating stories of other people's problems with rusting. I, too, wish they'd go back to laquer coatings and seals, but the future simply isn't as bleak as you're making it out to be. |
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Posted: 3/22/2015 12:18:17 AM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
1) Wolf buys and then resells ammo, they don't make it. 2) I've never had any problem with "rusting poly coated unsealed crap". I have thousands of rounds stockpiled and none of it looks any worse than the day I bought it. Granted, polymer coating the cases is less effective than laquer coatings, but ultimately it has more to do with the way you store it. And, to tell you the truth, I hear/see/read far fewer original incidents of rusting polymer than I do people on message boards repeating stories of other people's problems with rusting. I, too, wish they'd go back to laquer coatings and seals, but the future simply isn't as bleak as you're making it out to be. I just went and pulled the first round out of the first mag in my safe. Here you go. 
Grabbed another one, also a 223 and on the left is an old lacquer coated Wolf that I've had sitting in a bucket since no later than 2010, no rust on it. 
Yes, IF you store it correctly in a area with no humidity and refrain from touching it at all, it will look as good as it did the day you bought it years later. I have some like that, but the fact is, when you take it out of its bubble it deteriorates, whereas the lacquer coated stuff doesn't. |
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Posted: 3/22/2015 1:25:41 AM EDT
[#10]
Quoted:
Topic says it all Why in the last few years since the switch to poly haven't dealers put in a request to switch back to lacquer coated shells for 762x39 ? Buying this rusting poly coated unsealed crap, sucks for long term storage or even leaving in mags or anywhere outside of an ammo can with dessicant ! And exactly how many of us are going to buy as much Golden Tiger as we can when what ? 2 or 3 online ammo vendors finally get it in ? it will be gone in days (after paying a premium) and we are back to waiting..THATS RIDICULOUS . Who gave WOLF the bright idea to drop the lacquer ? They need to switch back NOW. The lack of simple affordable lacquer coated ammo/fodder is a joke I wrote this rant/post because i can't believe this hasent been rectified by now People bitched for 2 decades about the lacquer coating, so they switched to poly to please the consumer. What they need to do is go back to the copper washed steel case. The best coating. |
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Posted: 3/22/2015 5:09:29 PM EDT
[#11]
I just want sealed primers and bullets again.
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Posted: 3/23/2015 12:01:37 AM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
People bitched for 2 decades about the lacquer coating, so they switched to poly to please the consumer. What they need to do is go back to the copper washed steel case. The best coating. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Topic says it all Why in the last few years since the switch to poly haven't dealers put in a request to switch back to lacquer coated shells for 762x39 ? Buying this rusting poly coated unsealed crap, sucks for long term storage or even leaving in mags or anywhere outside of an ammo can with dessicant ! And exactly how many of us are going to buy as much Golden Tiger as we can when what ? 2 or 3 online ammo vendors finally get it in ? it will be gone in days (after paying a premium) and we are back to waiting..THATS RIDICULOUS . Who gave WOLF the bright idea to drop the lacquer ? They need to switch back NOW. The lack of simple affordable lacquer coated ammo/fodder is a joke I wrote this rant/post because i can't believe this hasent been rectified by now People bitched for 2 decades about the lacquer coating, so they switched to poly to please the consumer. What they need to do is go back to the copper washed steel case. The best coating. Actually you may have a point, I have some de-milled 7.62x39 that SG sells and no rust, and no bare steel showing in the casing. And I've had it for about 2 years sitting loose in a large ziplock style bag in an ammo can and it's still looks like it did when I got it. With that said, I also have some Tulammo and golden tiger in their original boxes in ammo cans. The Tulammo has some rust on some rounds, but the golden tiger ammo doesn't, but does have bare steel where the laquer has rubbed off. Like the .223 round the OP posted. |
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Posted: 3/23/2015 12:06:42 AM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I just want sealed primers and bullets again. Same 
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Posted: 3/23/2015 1:46:27 PM EDT
[#14]
'Silver Bear' and other zinc-plated stuff is my new savior in the "buy cheap stack deep" ammo pile.
Granted zinc plated stuff does cost a tad more, but still in the cheap sector. Rough prices- Polymer: .20-24 cents Zinc: .24-27 cents Brass: .75-80 cents |
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Posted: 3/23/2015 4:17:02 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
'Silver Bear' and other zinc-plated stuff is my new savior in the "buy cheap stack deep" ammo pile. Granted zinc plated stuff does cost a tad more, but still in the cheap sector. Rough prices- Polymer: .20-24 cents Zinc: .24-27 cents Brass: .75-80 cents Keep an eye on it; I've had the zinc plated stuff start to oxidize in storage after a few years. Not as bad as the poly though. |
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Posted: 3/23/2015 4:34:48 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Keep an eye on it; I've had the zinc plated stuff start to oxidize in storage after a few years. Not as bad as the poly though. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
'Silver Bear' and other zinc-plated stuff is my new savior in the "buy cheap stack deep" ammo pile. Granted zinc plated stuff does cost a tad more, but still in the cheap sector. Rough prices- Polymer: .20-24 cents Zinc: .24-27 cents Brass: .75-80 cents Keep an eye on it; I've had the zinc plated stuff start to oxidize in storage after a few years. Not as bad as the poly though. I noticed a layer of rust on Silver Bear (not really apparent to the naked eye) when I was taking macro photos last year. |
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Posted: 3/23/2015 11:40:14 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I noticed a layer of rust on Silver Bear (not really apparent to the naked eye) when I was taking macro photos last year. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: 'Silver Bear' and other zinc-plated stuff is my new savior in the "buy cheap stack deep" ammo pile. Granted zinc plated stuff does cost a tad more, but still in the cheap sector. Rough prices- Polymer: .20-24 cents Zinc: .24-27 cents Brass: .75-80 cents Keep an eye on it; I've had the zinc plated stuff start to oxidize in storage after a few years. Not as bad as the poly though. I noticed a layer of rust on Silver Bear (not really apparent to the naked eye) when I was taking macro photos last year. I've had Silver Bear oxidize on me even when stored in an ammo can with good seals. I've also had some that didn't oxidize after sitting in a humid garage for two or three summers. Posted some pics of it a year or two ago in this thread: http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_16/610804_.html |
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Posted: 3/24/2015 12:57:27 AM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The "lacquer" doesn't melt, can't even get it to with a torch. Steel cases don't expand like brass does, leading to less of a seal than brass would create, resulting in more carbon buildup in the chamber. More info - http://www.theboxotruth.com/educational-zone-18-shooting-wolf-steel-cased-ammo-in-an-ar15/ Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
People bitched to the for years to get rid of the lacquer as many maroons bought into the myth that the lacquer melted and gummed up chambers. It would frequently stick if left in a hot chamber. Happened more than once to me. I'm not hatin'. I love Wolf, it's all I shoot. The "lacquer" doesn't melt, can't even get it to with a torch. Steel cases don't expand like brass does, leading to less of a seal than brass would create, resulting in more carbon buildup in the chamber. More info - http://www.theboxotruth.com/educational-zone-18-shooting-wolf-steel-cased-ammo-in-an-ar15/ He's getting Wolf for 16 cents a round? I'd like to know who his source is. |
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Posted: 3/24/2015 1:06:23 AM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
He's getting Wolf for 16 cents a round? I'd like to know who his source is. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
People bitched to the for years to get rid of the lacquer as many maroons bought into the myth that the lacquer melted and gummed up chambers. It would frequently stick if left in a hot chamber. Happened more than once to me. I'm not hatin'. I love Wolf, it's all I shoot. The "lacquer" doesn't melt, can't even get it to with a torch. Steel cases don't expand like brass does, leading to less of a seal than brass would create, resulting in more carbon buildup in the chamber. More info - http://www.theboxotruth.com/educational-zone-18-shooting-wolf-steel-cased-ammo-in-an-ar15/ He's getting Wolf for 16 cents a round? I'd like to know who his source is. I can't see a date on mobile but I'm betting its an old article. I'd be in for at least 2K at that price, poly or not. |
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Posted: 3/24/2015 3:43:17 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: People bitched to the for years to get rid of the lacquer as many maroons bought into the myth that the lacquer melted and gummed up chambers. Exactly right. People equated "lacquer" with "melts in my chamber". |
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Posted: 3/25/2015 7:42:26 PM EDT
[#21]
I buy the WOLF poly to run through mags and beltfeds at the range. I bought a bunch of golden tiger and the Romanian Hotshot and Red Army Standard that had lacquer coating and sealed primers and case necks for storage. I will buy another 2-4k of GT if it ever becomes available again.
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Posted: 3/26/2015 5:49:07 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I just went and pulled the first round out of the first mag in my safe. Here you go. http://<a href=http://i1153.photobucket.com/albums/p511/Sputnik1988/IMAG0167_zpszq8tzvqf.jpg Grabbed another one, also a 223 and on the left is an old lacquer coated Wolf that I've had sitting in a bucket since no later than 2010, no rust on it.
http://<a href=http://i1153.photobucket.com/albums/p511/Sputnik1988/IMAG0172_zpslnwyezyt.jpg Yes, IF you store it correctly in a area with no humidity and refrain from touching it at all, it will look as good as it did the day you bought it years later. I have some like that, but the fact is, when you take it out of its bubble it deteriorates, whereas the lacquer coated stuff doesn't. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
1) Wolf buys and then resells ammo, they don't make it. 2) I've never had any problem with "rusting poly coated unsealed crap". I have thousands of rounds stockpiled and none of it looks any worse than the day I bought it. Granted, polymer coating the cases is less effective than laquer coatings, but ultimately it has more to do with the way you store it. And, to tell you the truth, I hear/see/read far fewer original incidents of rusting polymer than I do people on message boards repeating stories of other people's problems with rusting. I, too, wish they'd go back to laquer coatings and seals, but the future simply isn't as bleak as you're making it out to be. I just went and pulled the first round out of the first mag in my safe. Here you go. http://<a href=http://i1153.photobucket.com/albums/p511/Sputnik1988/IMAG0167_zpszq8tzvqf.jpg Grabbed another one, also a 223 and on the left is an old lacquer coated Wolf that I've had sitting in a bucket since no later than 2010, no rust on it.
http://<a href=http://i1153.photobucket.com/albums/p511/Sputnik1988/IMAG0172_zpslnwyezyt.jpg Yes, IF you store it correctly in a area with no humidity and refrain from touching it at all, it will look as good as it did the day you bought it years later. I have some like that, but the fact is, when you take it out of its bubble it deteriorates, whereas the lacquer coated stuff doesn't. Well then, I'll add you to my list of "original incidents." |
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Posted: 3/27/2015 10:01:01 AM EDT
[#23]
Contact Wolf and demand it! http://www.wolfammo.com/index.php?option=com_contact&task=view&contact_id=2&Itemid=20&mosmsg=Thank+you+for+your+e-mail |
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Posted: 3/28/2015 6:38:37 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Contact Wolf and demand it! http://www.wolfammo.com/index.php?option=com_contact&task=view&contact_id=2&Itemid=20&mosmsg=Thank+you+for+your+e-mail Maybe a GD firemission? |
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Posted: 3/28/2015 9:26:08 PM EDT
[#25]
The Ones that Griped are AR Shooters, the Direct impingement Gas Sysytem of the AR Heats up the Bolt Carrier and Bolt which in turn Heats the Chamber a lot more than a AK with its Gas Piston Sysytem and the AR's which are Gas Piston. That would be for both the 5.56 and the AR's Chambered in 7.62x39 The AR's would get so Hot it would Melt the Laquer and then the Rounds would Start Sticking in the Chamber and Rip the Head off of The Cartrige or Break the Extracor on the Bolt. Then You by the time You could get around to trying to get the stuck Round out of the Chamber it would be really Stuck once it had Cooled down, I heard Stories of People having to use a Steel Cleaning Rod and Drive the Round out from the Muzzle with. Hammer!
I heard about it 20 plus Years ago and was told to never Shoot Wolf or any other Laquer Coated Bullets in My AR so I never did. I had one of the Chinese AK's in 223 back then and I just Shot Brass out of it and My AR Now I have a Arsenal SLR106 in 5.56 and if I can find Wolf or Tula at a Good Price 6.00 a Box or less I will buy a case of it for the Arsenal. |
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Posted: 3/29/2015 1:17:18 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The Ones that Griped are AR Shooters, the Direct impingement Gas Sysytem of the AR Heats up the Bolt Carrier and Bolt which in turn Heats the Chamber a lot more than a AK with its Gas Piston Sysytem and the AR's which are Gas Piston. That would be for both the 5.56 and the AR's Chambered in 7.62x39 The AR's would get so Hot it would Melt the Laquer and then the Rounds would Start Sticking in the Chamber and Rip the Head off of The Cartrige or Break the Extracor on the Bolt. Then You by the time You could get around to trying to get the stuck Round out of the Chamber it would be really Stuck once it had Cooled down, I heard Stories of People having to use a Steel Cleaning Rod and Drive the Round out from the Muzzle with. Hammer! I heard about it 20 plus Years ago and was told to never Shoot Wolf or any other Laquer Coated Bullets in My AR so I never did. I had one of the Chinese AK's in 223 back then and I just Shot Brass out of it and My AR Now I have a Arsenal SLR106 in 5.56 and if I can find Wolf or Tula at a Good Price 6.00 a Box or less I will buy a case of it for the Arsenal. That's pretty much all false. |
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Posted: 3/29/2015 10:24:34 AM EDT
[#27]
Good grief. If lacquered Steel cased ammunition was so bad and prone to melting in hot chambers, the Germans would not have fielded billions of rounds of it during the second world war. Also, if the Russians had a problem with it,why have they been using it as front line combat issue ammunition since 1960 ( not to mention pretty much all the other communist producers of 7.62x39 mm) ???
Sheesh.... 1DD |
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Posted: 3/30/2015 11:20:34 AM EDT
[#28]
I shoot 5.56 and 7.62x39 DI guns and never had any issues with jamming, with sealed/lacquered rounds. It is all in peoples minds. could also be that back in the early days of the black rifle boom people really didn't know what they were doing and slapped together crappy AR's with crappy parts that just barely ran with brass cased ammo. Then they introduced inconsistent steel ammo to the mix and walla jam-o-matic. Both AR's and Russian ammo have come a long way since then. Polymer coatings don't bother me as much as the lack of sealant, geeze they could use internal bullet and primer seals like the US has been doing since shortly after WW2.The way ammo is flying off the shelves I doubt there is any incentive to improve the ammo at this point.
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Posted: 3/30/2015 4:20:29 PM EDT
[#29]
The way ammo is flying off the shelves I doubt there is any incentive to improve the ammo at this point. Bingo! |
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Posted: 3/30/2015 5:23:38 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That's pretty much all false. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
The Ones that Griped are AR Shooters, the Direct impingement Gas Sysytem of the AR Heats up the Bolt Carrier and Bolt which in turn Heats the Chamber a lot more than a AK with its Gas Piston Sysytem and the AR's which are Gas Piston. That would be for both the 5.56 and the AR's Chambered in 7.62x39 The AR's would get so Hot it would Melt the Laquer and then the Rounds would Start Sticking in the Chamber and Rip the Head off of The Cartrige or Break the Extracor on the Bolt. Then You by the time You could get around to trying to get the stuck Round out of the Chamber it would be really Stuck once it had Cooled down, I heard Stories of People having to use a Steel Cleaning Rod and Drive the Round out from the Muzzle with. Hammer! I heard about it 20 plus Years ago and was told to never Shoot Wolf or any other Laquer Coated Bullets in My AR so I never did. I had one of the Chinese AK's in 223 back then and I just Shot Brass out of it and My AR Now I have a Arsenal SLR106 in 5.56 and if I can find Wolf or Tula at a Good Price 6.00 a Box or less I will buy a case of it for the Arsenal. That's pretty much all false. Yep |
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Posted: 3/31/2015 12:14:26 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
People bitched to the for years to get rid of the lacquer as many maroons bought into the myth that the lacquer melted and gummed up chambers. It would stick a case in a hot chamber occasionally. Personal experience. |
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Posted: 4/1/2015 11:27:57 AM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
People bitched to the for years to get rid of the lacquer as many maroons bought into the myth that the lacquer melted and gummed up chambers. This myth has been flying around the AR forums for years, back when almost all the surplus steel was lacquored. I heard a guy behind the counter of one of my local gun shops tell this to a customer looking at a new AR less than 6 months ago. Not sure if this was the reason lacquor is gone of if someone just figured out a cheap way to cut a corner. I will say, if you store your steel poly coated ammo in a tightly sealed container with a good dessicant, no reason it shouldn't last indefinately. But a good lacquor coating is just another solid reason why GT is still the best ammo out there. And why my GT is always the last ammo I'll shoot. |
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Posted: 4/1/2015 12:46:49 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The AR's would get so Hot it would Melt the Laquer and then the Rounds would Start Sticking in the Chamber and Rip the Head off of The Cartrige or Break the Extracor on the Bolt. Who taught you this stuff? Tell you what. Get yourself a lacquer coated wolf, Barnaul, or whatever. Pull the bullet and dump the powder. You can pop the primer if you want too. Now hit that empty brass with a butane or propane torch. You're not going to melt off any lacquer. You're simply regurgitating bad information. Seriously. Get an empty lacquer coated steel case and try using a torch on it, and see if you can get something to "DRIP" or "Melt" off of it. If a chamber of a rifle is hot enough to melt the lacquer, which can't be melted with a torch, then your chamber is more than hot enough to cook off the round as soon as it goes into the chamber. |
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Posted: 4/1/2015 9:28:10 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yep Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
The Ones that Griped are AR Shooters, the Direct impingement Gas Sysytem of the AR Heats up the Bolt Carrier and Bolt which in turn Heats the Chamber a lot more than a AK with its Gas Piston Sysytem and the AR's which are Gas Piston. That would be for both the 5.56 and the AR's Chambered in 7.62x39 The AR's would get so Hot it would Melt the Laquer and then the Rounds would Start Sticking in the Chamber and Rip the Head off of The Cartrige or Break the Extracor on the Bolt. Then You by the time You could get around to trying to get the stuck Round out of the Chamber it would be really Stuck once it had Cooled down, I heard Stories of People having to use a Steel Cleaning Rod and Drive the Round out from the Muzzle with. Hammer! I heard about it 20 plus Years ago and was told to never Shoot Wolf or any other Laquer Coated Bullets in My AR so I never did. I had one of the Chinese AK's in 223 back then and I just Shot Brass out of it and My AR Now I have a Arsenal SLR106 in 5.56 and if I can find Wolf or Tula at a Good Price 6.00 a Box or less I will buy a case of it for the Arsenal. That's pretty much all false. Yep Indeed. |
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Posted: 4/1/2015 9:49:56 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It would stick a case in a hot chamber occasionally. Personal experience. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
People bitched to the for years to get rid of the lacquer as many maroons bought into the myth that the lacquer melted and gummed up chambers. It would stick a case in a hot chamber occasionally. Personal experience. Sure, but that has nothing to do with lacquer on the case. Read the rest of this thread. |
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Posted: 4/2/2015 10:04:44 AM EDT
[#36]
Not sure that I "buy into" the LACQUER STICKY CHAMBER MYTH since I've never had a poly cased 7.62 or 223 case stick in any of my AR or AK chambers but I've experienced at least a 1/2 dozen or more Lacquer coated cases stuck in specifically, My .223 AR guns.
Either rate, I believe the STICKY CHAMBER has more to do with the straight case wall and the lack of expansion/contraction of the steel case more than the coating, especially in AR .223/5.56 guns. I don't recall any ever getting any Poly or Lacquer coated rounds stuck in my 7.62X39 AK's. |
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Posted: 4/2/2015 8:16:58 PM EDT
[#37]
I got an AKM so hot the varnish on the laminated lower handguard started to bubble, but the lacquered steel Ulyanovsk (3 94 head stamp) ammunition did not melt and stick, even when left in the chamber for a few minutes..
I have seen isolated reports of lacquered steel cases with a sticky residue on them right out of the box. This might be attributable to poor quality control in Russia, not the basic premise of lacquered steel cased ammunition which has seen world wide use for generations. I beleive that most of the stuck cases in ARs are attributable to powder fouling from cheap dirty Russian powder and. |
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Posted: 4/4/2015 9:57:23 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That's pretty much all false. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
The Ones that Griped are AR Shooters, the Direct impingement Gas Sysytem of the AR Heats up the Bolt Carrier and Bolt which in turn Heats the Chamber a lot more than a AK with its Gas Piston Sysytem and the AR's which are Gas Piston. That would be for both the 5.56 and the AR's Chambered in 7.62x39 The AR's would get so Hot it would Melt the Laquer and then the Rounds would Start Sticking in the Chamber and Rip the Head off of The Cartrige or Break the Extracor on the Bolt. Then You by the time You could get around to trying to get the stuck Round out of the Chamber it would be really Stuck once it had Cooled down, I heard Stories of People having to use a Steel Cleaning Rod and Drive the Round out from the Muzzle with. Hammer! I heard about it 20 plus Years ago and was told to never Shoot Wolf or any other Laquer Coated Bullets in My AR so I never did. I had one of the Chinese AK's in 223 back then and I just Shot Brass out of it and My AR Now I have a Arsenal SLR106 in 5.56 and if I can find Wolf or Tula at a Good Price 6.00 a Box or less I will buy a case of it for the Arsenal. That's pretty much all false. Y'all can say its pretty much false, not true, or whatever. I am just stating what I heard being told in the Gun Shops back in the Day before Internet. Stop and think about it there was only a few AR Manufactures 25 Years ago with COLT being the Main One, I had 2 COLT Lightwieght Carbines and a SP-1 Back then those were the Carbines with the Aluminum Stock on Them. And since I Worked at Night for UPS back then I hung out in a couple of Differnt Gun Shops for Hours at a Time just about every Day. And Listened to and Heard just about every Conversation about Guns and Ammo. Back then I had a Couple of Norinco AK's One 7.62x39 and One in 223 and even the Chinese Surplus ammo back then had Lacquer on Them. The Gun Shop Owner I bought the Norinco's from said not to Shoot the Chinese Ammo in My AR's because He had some come into His Shop with the Surplus Ammo Stuck in the Chamber. I don't make stuff up! How many of You were Shooting 25 Years ago? How do You know the Lacquer Ammo didn't get Stuck in Chambers and Tear Extractors up? Have any of You seen how Hot a Direct Impingement Bolt Carrier gets since Gas is Fed Directly into the Carrier? That's Why the Piston Operated Proponets think the Piston System is so Much better. And as far as the Germans using Lacquer Coated Cases to the best of My Knowlege The Germans never made a Direct Impingement Gun. They were all Piston Operated just like the M1 Garand. According to Wikipedia the first successful Direct Impingement Gun was the French MAS and a Swedish M42 so it does not appear that the Germans ever used Direct Impingement Gas Sysytem. |
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Posted: 4/5/2015 8:33:51 AM EDT
[#39]
Got my first AK in 1986, my first AR in 1985. Been around the gun show / gun shop scene since before that. Shot Chinese lacquered steel 7.62x39 since the late 1980s and the Russian stuff since it came in in 1992. Never seen, experienced or heard about melted lacquer or sticking chambers until the Internet. As for Chinese surplus .223 being lacquered, completely false.. They never made "surplus" .223 nor was it steel cased in any way. The only Chinese .223 was new production brass cased.. A hot bolt carrier has nothing to do with a hot chamber or sticking cases, so that argument is false.. The Germans ran lacquered steel cased ammunition through bolt action, gas operated, recoil operated and blowback operated weapons. None of that matters. A hot chamber is a hot chamber. When you are running an MG42 at 1200 rpm and the barrel gets hot enough to need changing yet does not choke on lacquered steel cases, then that says something. The one thing I've taken away from my many years of hanging out in gun shops is that you can't believe most of what you hear in them... The reason that ARs don't always run on steel cased ammunition has everything to do with the fact that the cartridge is very straight, steel does not expand and seal the chamber as well as brass and the powder used in the cheap Russian ammunition is dirty. I've reloaded steel .223 cases and run many hundreds of them through my ARs with zero problems...
1DD |
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Posted: 4/6/2015 6:34:39 PM EDT
[#40]
Whatever. American ammo consumers complained and sales went down, so Wolf came up with the 'Performance' poly-coat case. You can hardly expect to get support for crawling back to Wolf now and asking them to switch back to lacquer.
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Posted: 4/6/2015 11:37:27 PM EDT
[#41]
It isn't 1995 any more guys. get with the program.
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Posted: 4/7/2015 9:02:17 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Y'all can say its pretty much false, not true, or whatever. I am just stating what I heard being told in the Gun Shops back in the Day before Internet. Stop and think about it there was only a few AR Manufactures 25 Years ago with COLT being the Main One, I had 2 COLT Lightwieght Carbines and a SP-1 Back then those were the Carbines with the Aluminum Stock on Them. And since I Worked at Night for UPS back then I hung out in a couple of Differnt Gun Shops for Hours at a Time just about every Day. And Listened to and Heard just about every Conversation about Guns and Ammo. Back then I had a Couple of Norinco AK's One 7.62x39 and One in 223 and even the Chinese Surplus ammo back then had Lacquer on Them. The Gun Shop Owner I bought the Norinco's from said not to Shoot the Chinese Ammo in My AR's because He had some come into His Shop with the Surplus Ammo Stuck in the Chamber. I don't make stuff up! How many of You were Shooting 25 Years ago? How do You know the Lacquer Ammo didn't get Stuck in Chambers and Tear Extractors up? Have any of You seen how Hot a Direct Impingement Bolt Carrier gets since Gas is Fed Directly into the Carrier? That's Why the Piston Operated Proponets think the Piston System is so Much better. And as far as the Germans using Lacquer Coated Cases to the best of My Knowlege The Germans never made a Direct Impingement Gun. They were all Piston Operated just like the M1 Garand. According to Wikipedia the first successful Direct Impingement Gun was the French MAS and a Swedish M42 so it does not appear that the Germans ever used Direct Impingement Gas Sysytem. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
The Ones that Griped are AR Shooters, the Direct impingement Gas Sysytem of the AR Heats up the Bolt Carrier and Bolt which in turn Heats the Chamber a lot more than a AK with its Gas Piston Sysytem and the AR's which are Gas Piston. That would be for both the 5.56 and the AR's Chambered in 7.62x39 The AR's would get so Hot it would Melt the Laquer and then the Rounds would Start Sticking in the Chamber and Rip the Head off of The Cartrige or Break the Extracor on the Bolt. Then You by the time You could get around to trying to get the stuck Round out of the Chamber it would be really Stuck once it had Cooled down, I heard Stories of People having to use a Steel Cleaning Rod and Drive the Round out from the Muzzle with. Hammer! I heard about it 20 plus Years ago and was told to never Shoot Wolf or any other Laquer Coated Bullets in My AR so I never did. I had one of the Chinese AK's in 223 back then and I just Shot Brass out of it and My AR Now I have a Arsenal SLR106 in 5.56 and if I can find Wolf or Tula at a Good Price 6.00 a Box or less I will buy a case of it for the Arsenal. That's pretty much all false. Y'all can say its pretty much false, not true, or whatever. I am just stating what I heard being told in the Gun Shops back in the Day before Internet. Stop and think about it there was only a few AR Manufactures 25 Years ago with COLT being the Main One, I had 2 COLT Lightwieght Carbines and a SP-1 Back then those were the Carbines with the Aluminum Stock on Them. And since I Worked at Night for UPS back then I hung out in a couple of Differnt Gun Shops for Hours at a Time just about every Day. And Listened to and Heard just about every Conversation about Guns and Ammo. Back then I had a Couple of Norinco AK's One 7.62x39 and One in 223 and even the Chinese Surplus ammo back then had Lacquer on Them. The Gun Shop Owner I bought the Norinco's from said not to Shoot the Chinese Ammo in My AR's because He had some come into His Shop with the Surplus Ammo Stuck in the Chamber. I don't make stuff up! How many of You were Shooting 25 Years ago? How do You know the Lacquer Ammo didn't get Stuck in Chambers and Tear Extractors up? Have any of You seen how Hot a Direct Impingement Bolt Carrier gets since Gas is Fed Directly into the Carrier? That's Why the Piston Operated Proponets think the Piston System is so Much better. And as far as the Germans using Lacquer Coated Cases to the best of My Knowlege The Germans never made a Direct Impingement Gun. They were all Piston Operated just like the M1 Garand. According to Wikipedia the first successful Direct Impingement Gun was the French MAS and a Swedish M42 so it does not appear that the Germans ever used Direct Impingement Gas Sysytem. Well, I was 25 years ago and you are still wrong. So.............? |
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Posted: 4/8/2015 6:18:36 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Y'all can say its pretty much false, not true, or whatever. I am just stating what I heard being told in the Gun Shops back in the Day before Internet. Stop and think about it there was only a few AR Manufactures 25 Years ago with COLT being the Main One, I had 2 COLT Lightwieght Carbines and a SP-1 Back then those were the Carbines with the Aluminum Stock on Them. And since I Worked at Night for UPS back then I hung out in a couple of Differnt Gun Shops for Hours at a Time just about every Day. And Listened to and Heard just about every Conversation about Guns and Ammo. Back then I had a Couple of Norinco AK's One 7.62x39 and One in 223 and even the Chinese Surplus ammo back then had Lacquer on Them. The Gun Shop Owner I bought the Norinco's from said not to Shoot the Chinese Ammo in My AR's because He had some come into His Shop with the Surplus Ammo Stuck in the Chamber. I don't make stuff up! How many of You were Shooting 25 Years ago? How do You know the Lacquer Ammo didn't get Stuck in Chambers and Tear Extractors up? Have any of You seen how Hot a Direct Impingement Bolt Carrier gets since Gas is Fed Directly into the Carrier? That's Why the Piston Operated Proponets think the Piston System is so Much better. And as far as the Germans using Lacquer Coated Cases to the best of My Knowlege The Germans never made a Direct Impingement Gun. They were all Piston Operated just like the M1 Garand. According to Wikipedia the first successful Direct Impingement Gun was the French MAS and a Swedish M42 so it does not appear that the Germans ever used Direct Impingement Gas Sysytem. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
The Ones that Griped are AR Shooters, the Direct impingement Gas Sysytem of the AR Heats up the Bolt Carrier and Bolt which in turn Heats the Chamber a lot more than a AK with its Gas Piston Sysytem and the AR's which are Gas Piston. That would be for both the 5.56 and the AR's Chambered in 7.62x39 The AR's would get so Hot it would Melt the Laquer and then the Rounds would Start Sticking in the Chamber and Rip the Head off of The Cartrige or Break the Extracor on the Bolt. Then You by the time You could get around to trying to get the stuck Round out of the Chamber it would be really Stuck once it had Cooled down, I heard Stories of People having to use a Steel Cleaning Rod and Drive the Round out from the Muzzle with. Hammer! I heard about it 20 plus Years ago and was told to never Shoot Wolf or any other Laquer Coated Bullets in My AR so I never did. I had one of the Chinese AK's in 223 back then and I just Shot Brass out of it and My AR Now I have a Arsenal SLR106 in 5.56 and if I can find Wolf or Tula at a Good Price 6.00 a Box or less I will buy a case of it for the Arsenal. That's pretty much all false. Y'all can say its pretty much false, not true, or whatever. I am just stating what I heard being told in the Gun Shops back in the Day before Internet. Stop and think about it there was only a few AR Manufactures 25 Years ago with COLT being the Main One, I had 2 COLT Lightwieght Carbines and a SP-1 Back then those were the Carbines with the Aluminum Stock on Them. And since I Worked at Night for UPS back then I hung out in a couple of Differnt Gun Shops for Hours at a Time just about every Day. And Listened to and Heard just about every Conversation about Guns and Ammo. Back then I had a Couple of Norinco AK's One 7.62x39 and One in 223 and even the Chinese Surplus ammo back then had Lacquer on Them. The Gun Shop Owner I bought the Norinco's from said not to Shoot the Chinese Ammo in My AR's because He had some come into His Shop with the Surplus Ammo Stuck in the Chamber. I don't make stuff up! How many of You were Shooting 25 Years ago? How do You know the Lacquer Ammo didn't get Stuck in Chambers and Tear Extractors up? Have any of You seen how Hot a Direct Impingement Bolt Carrier gets since Gas is Fed Directly into the Carrier? That's Why the Piston Operated Proponets think the Piston System is so Much better. And as far as the Germans using Lacquer Coated Cases to the best of My Knowlege The Germans never made a Direct Impingement Gun. They were all Piston Operated just like the M1 Garand. According to Wikipedia the first successful Direct Impingement Gun was the French MAS and a Swedish M42 so it does not appear that the Germans ever used Direct Impingement Gas Sysytem. I have no doubt that's what they told you, but it was just as wrong then as it is now. The fact that laquer-coated steel cases were getting stuck in ARs had nothing to do with the laquer and everything to do with the caliber. Or, more particularly, the straight-walled case of .223/5.56. As 1DD pointed out, steel doesn't expand in the same way that brass does; it doesn't create a proper seal. As a result, fouling gets between the casing and the chamber creating more friction. With a tapered cartridge, the casing has less surface area that must be drug through the chamber on extraction, so it comes out fairly easily. The surface area of a straight-walled casing remains in contact with the chamber during extraction, up to the point where it necks-down. That's a lot more friction and a lot more area subject to fouling. DI has nothing to do with it. Notice that you hear far fewer stories of stuck cases in ARs chambered for tapered cartridges, like 7.62x39, even though they're laquer-coated and being fired out of a DI rifle. Conversely, notice that you still routinely hear stories of steel cases getting stuck in .223/5.56 ARs even though they're now polymer coated. So I'll say it again: straight-walled cartridge + steel case = stuck case. |
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Posted: 4/27/2015 8:19:33 AM EDT
[#44]
Just so you guys know, but the 'Burnaul' factory still makes Lacquer coated ammunition, 5.56, 5.45, 7.62x39, .308, and 7.62x54r as far as I know...
FYI Barnaul = Brown/Silver/Gold Bear http://eng.barnaulpatron.ru/production/ IMHO Barnaul is a cut above TulAmmo as well, not that I've personally have any problems with Tula stuff not working. But does anyone ever notice the little copper 'chipping' right around the neck of the case from the bullet (not on all, but some)... I've noticed this a bit with Tula stuff, never seen it with Barnaul... Cool fact: Hornady also produces ammunition for the Russian market, so I guess it isn't just a 'one way street'. Pretty neat. http://www.eng.barnaulpatron.ru/production/sportshuntingcartridgescalibre/centaur1.html |
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Posted: 4/27/2015 9:45:59 AM EDT
[#45]
I'm really glad I live in AZ. I don't even clean my AK after shooting corrosive Yugo sometimes.
You should paint every round with nail polish.
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Posted: 4/27/2015 7:27:25 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Just so you guys know, but the 'Burnaul' factory still makes Lacquer coated ammunition, 5.56, 5.45, 7.62x39, .308, and 7.62x54r as far as I know... I think laquer-coated Barnaul (in 7.62x39, at least) that you find out there for sale is NOS. I couldn't imagine that they'd make laquer-coated cases and poly-coated case concurrently, and for the same price to boot. |
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Posted: 4/27/2015 8:27:29 PM EDT
[#47]
^From the horses mouth they do, I provided links...
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Posted: 4/30/2015 1:05:49 PM EDT
[#48]
Gotta agree with the case taper playing a role in 223, but the laquer coating may be thicker than the poly coating. Combined with the case taper, could be why some ARs have problems. If an AK can't run the laquer stuff, I think you need a new AK, as opposed to you need another AK, which you always need.
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