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terdferguson
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Posted: 7/11/2011 3:39:11 PM
[Last Edit: 7/11/2011 3:44:27 PM by terdferguson]
As the title infers, can you sell a gun you've built? I thought I read somewhere a while ago that you cannot build a gun in order to sell it. But there is nothing to prevent you from building a gun for yourself and changing your mind about keeping it down the line. I can't find any paperwork to back this up. If you're able to sell a kit built gun, what are the marking requirements (name/city/number/size/depth)?

I built an M92 a couple of years ago as a pistol. It never really tripped my trigger so to speak and I've found something else I want is why I'm asking. Thanks for the help and thanks for arf!



***EDITED TO ADD***
Gun was built by me on a bent flat.
I long to see the sunlight in your hair
gunner01
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Posted: 7/11/2011 4:50:25 PM
Yes you can. You are right you can not build one to sell but you can sell one you have built and do not want anymore.
terdferguson
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Posted: 7/11/2011 4:55:53 PM
It is currently unmarked since this was built from a flat for personal use. What do I need to engrave/have engraved in order to be ready to sell/trade.
I long to see the sunlight in your hair
ak_
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Posted: 7/11/2011 9:08:47 PM
[Last Edit: 7/12/2011 2:32:26 PM by ak_]
Originally Posted By terdferguson:
It is currently unmarked since this was built from a flat for personal use. What do I need to engrave/have engraved in order to be ready to sell/trade.



There is no federal requirement for you to engrave anything, unless you sell it. But some state laws do require engraving.

ETA: major typo
jdoming728
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Posted: 7/11/2011 9:37:52 PM
I have fought many members on this issue but I found out Yes you can if you want you can even engrave a serial and register it with the Feds... but do you have to,,,, No you dont you can sell a home build.... Now would I NOOOO I personally wont unless I buy a nodack spud reciever and replace the one I bent then just transfer it over like a over the counter gun build also since I built the gun do I want to have the responsibility of if he gets hurt or hurts some one with my build anddddddd can he legally own a gun....Questions you might want to ask youself....
A Man dont have to die to go to hell!!
corny
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Posted: 7/12/2011 9:55:38 AM
Cut it up and sell it as a kit.
No liability that way.

BOOM__STICK
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Posted: 7/12/2011 12:36:05 PM
"Cut it up and sell it as a kit"? Talk about sticking your head in the sand... Bullshit!

This kind of attitude toward our gun rights and the regulations that keep getting piled upon us by the f-ing Govt. is exactly what the law abiding gun community DOESN'T need. This kind of scared, knee-jerk reaction to this subject (and many others related to gun regs) are a sad indicator of the destiny of the fate of gun ownership in America.

Keep grabbing your ankles everyone... You're just giving away your freedom.


To the OP:
I don't actually know the specifics on the scenario you are asking about, but I THINK that as long as you sell it in the same state as it was built it, and don't intentionally sell it to make profit then you are good to go.
But again, it's not something that I've been through or gotten onto the details of myself yet. So take it FWIW, but I damn sure wouldn't just cut it up, or be afraid to sell it.
Just do a little homework first.
terdferguson
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Posted: 7/12/2011 1:20:48 PM
[Last Edit: 7/12/2011 1:21:26 PM by terdferguson]
Originally Posted By jdoming728:
I have fought many members on this issue but I found out Yes you can if you want you can even engrave a serial and register it with the Feds... but do you have to,,,, No you dont you can sell a home build.... Now would I NOOOO I personally wont unless I buy a nodack spud reciever and replace the one I bent then just transfer it over like a over the counter gun build also since I built the gun do I want to have the responsibility of if he gets hurt or hurts some one with my build anddddddd can he legally own a gun....Questions you might want to ask youself....


Do you have any paperwork to back up the no marking part? Anyway, here in NC, you can sell a pistol ftf so long as the buyer shows either a permit to purchase or a concealed carry permit. I do not want to rebuild it with Nodak nor do I want to cut it up. I'm not even sure I want to sell/trade it. After all, its not like there's a ton of krinks out there for cheap to replace it should I change my mind again.
I long to see the sunlight in your hair
ak_
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Posted: 7/12/2011 9:00:25 PM
Originally Posted By terdferguson:
Do you have any paperwork to back up the no marking part?


BATFE Website - Re: manufacturing for personal use
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/firearms-technology.html#commercial-parts-assembly

"For your information, per provisions of the Gun Control Act (GCA) of 1968, 18 U.S.C. Chapter 44, an unlicensed individual may make a “firearm” as defined in the GCA for his own personal use, but not for sale or distribution."



BATFE Website - Re: Do I have to engrave it for personal use?
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/firearms-technology.html#commercial-parts-assembly
"Individuals manufacturing sporting-type firearms for their own use need not hold Federal Firearms Licenses (FFLs). However, we suggest that the manufacturer at least identify the firearm with a serial number as a safeguard in the event that the firearm is lost or stolen. Also, the firearm should be identified as required in 27 CFR 478.92 if it is sold or otherwise lawfully transferred in the future."


and importantly, if you are going to sell or legally transfer the firearm you should engrave it


BATFE Website - Re: Do I have to engrave it if i sell it?

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/firearms-technology.html#commercial-parts-assembly
"Also, the firearm should be identified as required in 27 CFR 478.92 if it is sold or otherwise lawfully transferred in the future."

27 CFR 478.92
Engraving requirements are found here:
http://www.atf.gov/regulations-rulings/rulings/atf-rulings/atf-ruling-2009-5.pdf


Hope that helps.
corny
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Posted: 7/12/2011 10:47:21 PM
[Last Edit: 7/12/2011 10:48:06 PM by corny]
Originally Posted By BOOM__STICK:
"Cut it up and sell it as a kit"? Talk about sticking your head in the sand... Bullshit!

This kind of attitude toward our gun rights and the regulations that keep getting piled upon us by the f-ing Govt. is exactly what the law abiding gun community DOESN'T need. This kind of scared, knee-jerk reaction to this subject (and many others related to gun regs) are a sad indicator of the destiny of the fate of gun ownership in America.

Keep grabbing your ankles everyone... You're just giving a way your freedom.



Decaf coffee there bro.....

Just a suggestion to limit liability with a home bent receiver.

Besides it is more fun building your own firearm then going into a store and buying one.

I am on number 10 with two more to go. Building that is. I would rather trust a Nodak Spud receiver that a home bent one.

So did you get the part where I suggested decaf coffee?

jdoming728
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Posted: 7/12/2011 10:52:33 PM
a lot of good info thanks. but personally Im not in the business of making them to sell or proof, and I do agree you should at least mark it....Living close to Mexico I wouldn't like it to end up there....Ill take it apart first.......
A Man dont have to die to go to hell!!
terdferguson
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Posted: 7/12/2011 11:13:20 PM
Originally Posted By ak_:
Originally Posted By terdferguson:
Do you have any paperwork to back up the no marking part?


BATFE Website - Re: manufacturing for personal use
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/firearms-technology.html#commercial-parts-assembly

"For your information, per provisions of the Gun Control Act (GCA) of 1968, 18 U.S.C. Chapter 44, an unlicensed individual may make a “firearm” as defined in the GCA for his own personal use, but not for sale or distribution."



BATFE Website - Re: Do I have to engrave it for personal use?
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/firearms-technology.html#commercial-parts-assembly
"Individuals manufacturing sporting-type firearms for their own use need not hold Federal Firearms Licenses (FFLs). However, we suggest that the manufacturer at least identify the firearm with a serial number as a safeguard in the event that the firearm is lost or stolen. Also, the firearm should be identified as required in 27 CFR 478.92 if it is sold or otherwise lawfully transferred in the future."


and importantly, if you are going to sell or legally transfer the firearm you should engrave it


BATFE Website - Re: Do I have to engrave it if i sell it?

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/firearms-technology.html#commercial-parts-assembly
"Also, the firearm should be identified as required in 27 CFR 478.92 if it is sold or otherwise lawfully transferred in the future."

27 CFR 478.92
Engraving requirements are found here:
http://www.atf.gov/regulations-rulings/rulings/atf-rulings/atf-ruling-2009-5.pdf


Hope that helps.



THat helps a ton! Everything I need to know. Thanks a bunch!!!

I long to see the sunlight in your hair
terdferguson
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Posted: 7/12/2011 11:14:33 PM
Originally Posted By corny:
Originally Posted By BOOM__STICK:
"Cut it up and sell it as a kit"? Talk about sticking your head in the sand... Bullshit!

This kind of attitude toward our gun rights and the regulations that keep getting piled upon us by the f-ing Govt. is exactly what the law abiding gun community DOESN'T need. This kind of scared, knee-jerk reaction to this subject (and many others related to gun regs) are a sad indicator of the destiny of the fate of gun ownership in America.

Keep grabbing your ankles everyone... You're just giving a way your freedom.



Decaf coffee there bro.....

Just a suggestion to limit liability with a home bent receiver.

Besides it is more fun building your own firearm then going into a store and buying one.

I am on number 10 with two more to go. Building that is. I would rather trust a Nodak Spud receiver that a home bent one.

So did you get the part where I suggested decaf coffee?




I'll put my home bent flat build M92 against any Nodak receiver any old day of the week. Seriously.

I long to see the sunlight in your hair
terdferguson
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Posted: 7/12/2011 11:14:47 PM
[Last Edit: 7/12/2011 11:15:28 PM by terdferguson]
Originally Posted By corny:
Originally Posted By BOOM__STICK:
"Cut it up and sell it as a kit"? Talk about sticking your head in the sand... Bullshit!

This kind of attitude toward our gun rights and the regulations that keep getting piled upon us by the f-ing Govt. is exactly what the law abiding gun community DOESN'T need. This kind of scared, knee-jerk reaction to this subject (and many others related to gun regs) are a sad indicator of the destiny of the fate of gun ownership in America.

Keep grabbing your ankles everyone... You're just giving a way your freedom.



Decaf coffee there bro.....

Just a suggestion to limit liability with a home bent receiver.

Besides it is more fun building your own firearm then going into a store and buying one.

I am on number 10 with two more to go. Building that is. I would rather trust a Nodak Spud receiver that a home bent one.

So did you get the part where I suggested decaf coffee?




Double tap.

I long to see the sunlight in your hair
terdferguson
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Posted: 7/12/2011 11:15:00 PM
[Last Edit: 7/12/2011 11:15:44 PM by terdferguson]
Originally Posted By corny:
Originally Posted By BOOM__STICK:
"Cut it up and sell it as a kit"? Talk about sticking your head in the sand... Bullshit!

This kind of attitude toward our gun rights and the regulations that keep getting piled upon us by the f-ing Govt. is exactly what the law abiding gun community DOESN'T need. This kind of scared, knee-jerk reaction to this subject (and many others related to gun regs) are a sad indicator of the destiny of the fate of gun ownership in America.

Keep grabbing your ankles everyone... You're just giving a way your freedom.



Decaf coffee there bro.....

Just a suggestion to limit liability with a home bent receiver.

Besides it is more fun building your own firearm then going into a store and buying one.

I am on number 10 with two more to go. Building that is. I would rather trust a Nodak Spud receiver that a home bent one.

So did you get the part where I suggested decaf coffee?




Triple tap.

I long to see the sunlight in your hair
GOH
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Posted: 7/13/2011 12:29:02 AM
Just make sure to engrave "Made in the U.S.A." on it before you sell it to the Mexican drug cartels. That way, when the rifle is used to kill some rancher along the Texas border, Eric Holder and the U.S. Justice Department will refuse to prosecute you.
corny
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Posted: 7/13/2011 1:01:47 PM
Some of the people here are more technically minded than I.

Metallurgy is not my strong suit so I like to use a Nodak.

I love Harlan's receivers because he does a damn fine job and I don't have to worry about it being out of spec.

I might try bending one of my own as I have all the tools necessary. I just like his receivers.

Bend em if ya got em.

jdoming728
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Posted: 7/13/2011 10:26:56 PM
Its all a matter of opionion I like bending and building from a flat but the only one I have done with a pre bent reciever was easier than the way I do them now but Im into making these things take alittle longer to build and enjoying my time... Id like to try a Nodack one of these days... If I decide to sell one Ill put it on one...
A Man dont have to die to go to hell!!
corny
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Posted: 7/14/2011 11:02:19 AM
Nodak is the ONLY bent receiver to use.

I have a flat in my shop but no way to bend it.

I would like to try it but I don't really want to spend the money on a jig for just one receiver.

My brother in law made me all of my assembly tools, rivet smasher and such. (looks like the plinkers jig) The 20 ton press was the easy part.
I like building them more that shooting them.

Maybe someone here in Central Florida wants to lend me their receiver jig?

jdoming728
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Posted: 7/15/2011 2:28:43 PM
Sad thing is If any one ships one to you Ill cost a small bundle just to do that.....
A Man dont have to die to go to hell!!
corny
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Posted: 7/15/2011 8:04:24 PM
[Last Edit: 7/15/2011 8:41:14 PM by corny]
True
Very true
terdferguson
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Posted: 8/15/2011 11:14:03 AM
Just a small update...

I called the local ATF office in my state to clarify. He echoed the comments in this thread that the INTENT is the important part of the law. He gave an example of if you build one gun this year and sell it next year that's probably not built with the intent to sell. If you build three guns and sell them, you're probably manufacturing with the intent to sell. If you build a gun and sell it then build the exact same gun, that may be intent. Anyway, he said there's no number, its all arbitrary and their opinion. Basically its all common sense.

Now with regards to marking...

The agent I spoke with said he couldn't find any information where an individual who manufactures a firearm is REQUIRED to mark it. I asked him about the marking it "should it be sold or lawfully transferred in the future" part with regards to how an FFL would enter an unmarked weapon in their books. He said they would enter it similar to a gun made before 1968 when serial numbers weren't required and that my name would be listed as the manufacturer.

To sum up, and according to the agent, I can manufacture a gun for personal use. I can later at some point in the future decide I no longer want it and sell or trade it (so long as the intent when building it is NOT to sell it). I am not required to mark it in any way before sale (that part seems sketchy to me, but whatever).

I long to see the sunlight in your hair