User Panel
[#1]
I suppose the right sized O ring might do everything a spring would do but I don't know what the mfg had in mind.
Best bet would be to get a call to them |
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[#2]
It's hard to tell from this angle but it appears you have a spring. Just lift the o-ring to see if there is a spring on it.
The o-ring is considered an "upgrade" to the extractor spring in terms of reliability. Basically you put the o-ring around the spring. If you didn't have a spring, the o-ring would not stay on like it is. If you're watching old military videos, they probably don't have a o-ring on the extractor. It's only a recent upgrade for the military to use a o-ring and use a H buffer. You don't actually need the o-ring and you can take it off if you wish. |
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[#5]
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[#6]
Looks like it's there, I'd replace it with a BCM spring anyway.
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[#7]
You have a spring in there and it also has an O ring. The spring is holding the O ring on. You also have a black spring insert. Good setup. Nothing wrong with what you have there.
I'd run it just like that as is. |
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[#8]
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[#9]
Take a side profile pic. Some of your comments are leading me to believe you may have half a spring.
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[#10]
Extractor works. Fired a few rounds today and they ejected fine. However, I now have a greater problem, think it's the trigger/hammer group. Can only fire one round, bolt cycles and feeds next round then click no bang. Manual eject and chamber new round, bang, then click no bang on next round. That happened about 5 times. Can see light strike on the rounds.
Will create another post for that tomorrow. |
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[#11]
Quoted: Extractor works. Fired a few rounds today and they ejected fine. However, I now have a greater problem, think it's the trigger/hammer group. Can only fire one round, bolt cycles and feeds next round then click no bang. Manual eject and chamber new round, bang, then click no bang on next round. That happened about 5 times. Can see light strike on the rounds. Will create another post for that tomorrow. View Quote |
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[#12]
Same. Trash the o ring. Trash that spring. Replace it with a Colt "gold" milspec spring or Ken Elmoore's "green" spring if you want to go a step further. |
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[#13]
Parrot time.
OP, I can clearly see the insert, spring, and oring. All is good. You hammer spring is likely installed bassackwards. Ensure the hammer spring is on the rear (stock side) of the hammer, and that the spring legs sit on top of the trigger pin. It should require a decent bit of effort to push the hammer into place to install it's pin and then cock it to engage the safety. A dry fire (never w/o an upper w/ bcg installed!) should give a solid "click" and the disconnector noise should be a solid "clunk". There's enough info on how to function check an AR platform rifle that I won't bother to explain. The "light strike" or dimple on the primer is likely just from chambering. If you chamber a fresh, live round in your rifle, then eject it manually, you will see a small dimple on the primer. This is perfectly normal. |
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[#15]
Can't see anything wrong with the trigger group.
Verify that there are no burrs or debris on the firing pin, and inside the channel it travels through in the bolt. There could also be preservative grease on/in these parts causing it to slow down. A thorough cleaning and lube would take care of that. Can you verify that the BCG is returning to full battery after the first shot? Again, if you haven't cleaned all the preservative off it may be slowing things down. In which case, clean it. Tap the forward assist after chambering the second round to verify it's in battery (inspect before/while tapping, to see if it moves). If it's clean and no returning to battery then there may be a different issue. Before we continue to keep suggesting you clean the rifle, do so, if you have not, and lube it generously with clp. I suggest clp for now because it is THE lube, and not thick enough to cause other issues. I generally recommend a grease. You may be able to check firing pin protrusion using a small machinists' depth gauge, I assume you don't have a FPP gauge. Measure from face of locking lugs to bolt face, then measure from face of locking lugs to firing pin tip. Subtract the second measure from the first, and that's your protrusion. 99.99% chance that your new firing pin is in spec, but lemons happen. If you can't find the spec, but have the tools, I can go find it in the TM or you will have to wait until Monday to check the gauges at work. ETA: what ammo are you using? Does it lock the bolt back on the last round? |
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[#16]
The BCG (nickel boron) came clean and dry. It was lubed along with other lube points with CLP as listed in the TM and on videos I watched the day before I shot it. We also checked the BCG after the failures and it moved freely.
I confirmed today that the local PSA store has an armorer/qualified personnel to check the weapon. Will do that tomorrow. They mentioned there could be problems with the chamber/head space. I have no tools for that. Will see what they turn up. |
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[#17]
I could see it easily not wanting to lock up if HS is short, and the firing pin not having enough length if HS is long. Both giving the same issue.
Hopefully PSA takes care of you. Please report back whatever they say and what corrections they made. |
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[#18]
Looks like crap.
Ancient M16 extractor spring, and a improper o-ring. First proper springs don't need o-rings, but if your going to add an o-ring at least use the proper material one. I would buy a BCM kit OP, Colt gold spring would be the ideal but you can't always easily find those. |
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[#19]
Quoted:
Looks like crap. Ancient M16 extractor spring, and a improper o-ring. First proper springs don't need o-rings, but if your going to add an o-ring at least use the proper material one. I would buy a BCM kit OP, Colt gold spring would be the ideal but you can't always easily find those. View Quote Please enlighten me on the m16 extractor spring thing? Didn't know there was any difference in the spring since first adopted, besides the crane oring. Was it the addition of the rubber insert? I'm sure there is a proper $100 part #/nsn for a crane oring, but I doubt the Pepsi challenge will reveal a difference between it and a 10 cent hardware store version. All of my m16s and m4s (ok, i don't personally own them) all have the same spring/insert, no crane oring (factory FNH/colt). Never actually seen a crane oring on a m16 or m4. Never had the chance to inspect on a m4a1, but th armorer who services them never heard of one (not a gun guy or operator, just a generic armorer). His unit was operator though. ETA: if you have a link to a resource, please post it so you don't have to regurgitate an article. |
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[#20]
Quoted: Please enlighten me on the m16 extractor spring thing? Didn't know there was any difference in the spring since first adopted, besides the crane oring. Was it the addition of the rubber insert? I'm sure there is a proper $100 part #/nsn for a crane oring, but I doubt the Pepsi challenge will reveal a difference between it and a 10 cent hardware store version. All of my m16s and m4s (ok, i don't personally own them) all have the same spring/insert, no crane oring (factory FNH/colt). Never actually seen a crane oring on a m16 or m4. Never had the chance to inspect on a m4a1, but th armorer who services them never heard of one (not a gun guy or operator, just a generic armorer). His unit was operator though. ETA: if you have a link to a resource, please post it so you don't have to regurgitate an article. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: Looks like crap. Ancient M16 extractor spring, and a improper o-ring. First proper springs don't need o-rings, but if your going to add an o-ring at least use the proper material one. I would buy a BCM kit OP, Colt gold spring would be the ideal but you can't always easily find those. Please enlighten me on the m16 extractor spring thing? Didn't know there was any difference in the spring since first adopted, besides the crane oring. Was it the addition of the rubber insert? I'm sure there is a proper $100 part #/nsn for a crane oring, but I doubt the Pepsi challenge will reveal a difference between it and a 10 cent hardware store version. All of my m16s and m4s (ok, i don't personally own them) all have the same spring/insert, no crane oring (factory FNH/colt). Never actually seen a crane oring on a m16 or m4. Never had the chance to inspect on a m4a1, but th armorer who services them never heard of one (not a gun guy or operator, just a generic armorer). His unit was operator though. ETA: if you have a link to a resource, please post it so you don't have to regurgitate an article. |
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[#21]
Ok. Looked through that. Didn't see any technical info, but it looks like BCM is selling the upgrade kit for a couple dollars. High quality spring, which appears to be an extra coil, insert and o ring.
Where can I find the spec for these things? Only on arfcom can we have a (what will soon be) a multiple page discussion about a 10 cent oring and a single coil on a jesus spring... |
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[#22]
Quoted: Ok. Looked through that. Didn't see any technical info, but it looks like BCM is selling the upgrade kit for a couple dollars. High quality spring, which appears to be an extra coil, insert and o ring. Where can I find the spec for these things? Only on arfcom can we have a (what will soon be) a multiple page discussion about a 10 cent oring and a single coil on a jesus spring... View Quote This kit is cheaper than I would have thought. The spring and insert are available at midway for $5 and this is $10 with spring, insert, and 5 o-rings. It also lists the o-ring chemical spec. Might be able to find them at McMaster Carr. |
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[#23]
And I can't remember off the top of my head, but I think my 6920 that was made in 2016 according to barrel stamp has an o-ring.
I'll confirm later. ETA: no o-ring. Just the gold spring and black insert. |
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[#24]
Quoted:
Please enlighten me on the m16 extractor spring thing? Didn't know there was any difference in the spring since first adopted, besides the crane oring. Was it the addition of the rubber insert? I'm sure there is a proper $100 part #/nsn for a crane oring, but I doubt the Pepsi challenge will reveal a difference between it and a 10 cent hardware store version. All of my m16s and m4s (ok, i don't personally own them) all have the same spring/insert, no crane oring (factory FNH/colt). Never actually seen a crane oring on a m16 or m4. Never had the chance to inspect on a m4a1, but th armorer who services them never heard of one (not a gun guy or operator, just a generic armorer). His unit was operator though. ETA: if you have a link to a resource, please post it so you don't have to regurgitate an article. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
Quoted:
Looks like crap. Ancient M16 extractor spring, and a improper o-ring. First proper springs don't need o-rings, but if your going to add an o-ring at least use the proper material one. I would buy a BCM kit OP, Colt gold spring would be the ideal but you can't always easily find those. Please enlighten me on the m16 extractor spring thing? Didn't know there was any difference in the spring since first adopted, besides the crane oring. Was it the addition of the rubber insert? I'm sure there is a proper $100 part #/nsn for a crane oring, but I doubt the Pepsi challenge will reveal a difference between it and a 10 cent hardware store version. All of my m16s and m4s (ok, i don't personally own them) all have the same spring/insert, no crane oring (factory FNH/colt). Never actually seen a crane oring on a m16 or m4. Never had the chance to inspect on a m4a1, but th armorer who services them never heard of one (not a gun guy or operator, just a generic armorer). His unit was operator though. ETA: if you have a link to a resource, please post it so you don't have to regurgitate an article. There has been something like 4 different versions of extractor springs and inserts over the M16s life. Crane o-rings are black(Viton AS568A Aerospace Standard) not red like the op shows. Point 2: The "SOPMOD" extractor "O" ring upgrade was a remedy for the original extractor design used in the M4A1/M4, which was identical to the M16's, using a four coil silver spring and blue extractor "bumper."
Service use revealed that the extractor needed more "bite" in shorter gas systems/carbines to reliably extract spent cases from the chamber. The "O" ring was therefore added to increase the resistance of the extractor so that it would not slip off the case rim as readily. Colt also developed a new five coil extractor spring with a gold coloration, and a less "squishy" black extractor buffer, and offered several times to upgrade the M4/M4A1 TDP with it. Nevertheless, for almost ten years, the military didn't really care about this because the M4 family was a low-density weapon system - the majority of the military was equipped with the M16. The "O" ring, five coil spring, and extractor buffer became known as the "SOPMOD Extractor Upgrade." Once the M4 became being issued in much much larger numbers than ever originally imagined, however, the problem became widespread enough to warrant what is called an "Engineering Change Proposal" or "ECP" to the M4 and M4A1, and the military finally accepted Colt's proposition to update the M4 and M4A1 TDP with the new extractor spring and insert, as well as authorizing the upgraded parts to be used in the M16 family as repair/replacement parts. If your 6920 was produced pretty much at any time after 2005 or so, it came with the factory with the correct parts, and no "O" ring is necessary, and from your description, you seem to have the correct extractor parts. The "O" ring was really never anything more than a way to address the issue before redesigned parts became available, once the correct parts became available, they very quickly became redundant, and are rarely ever used these days unless you have to "wrong" parts installed. With a Colt, again, unless you've reason to believe that someone tampered with the extractor after the fact - you needn't really concern yourself about this, though some commercial manufacturers began selling bolts with black-colored extractor buffers, but that were otherwise identical to the original M16 blue buffer. However, even if you're unsure whether you have the correct extractor parts, extractor upgrade kits are relatively cheap (BCM wants $5 for theirs) to get the right parts. ~Augee |
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[#27]
Quoted:
Extractor works. Fired a few rounds today and they ejected fine. However, I now have a greater problem, think it's the trigger/hammer group. Can only fire one round, bolt cycles and feeds next round then click no bang. Manual eject and chamber new round, bang, then click no bang on next round. That happened about 5 times. Can see light strike on the rounds. Will create another post for that tomorrow. View Quote My guess is that this has to do with ammo, not your rifle. Try this: fire one round, on the next round hit the forward assist once, then attempt to fire. See if that works. If it does, it sounds like the round isn't giving the bolt carrier enough energy to cycle fully and seat the next round properly. Also by chance while cleaning, did you shove anything into the gas tube? Or blasted any oil/grease in there? Also, is your gas block the pin kind or the screw on kind? If the gas block is loose, or moving, it could cause a problem for you. Try shooting quality 5.56mm ammo at least 55gr. Recommend Federal XM193. If you can't cycle that, then that means there is something wrong with your rifle, most likely in the way you cleaned it or assembled the carrier. I highly doubt PSA had assembled your rifle incorrectly and I would not recommend changing, swapping, or doing anything with the rifle until you (or PSA) figures out the problem. |
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[#28]
There is nothing wrong with having o rings on the extractor. I run them on my rifles.
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[#29]
Update on the second round firing issue:
The PSA store's resident AR guru test-fired the rifle and experienced the same failures. He then manually worked the trigger while controlling the hammer many times to exercise the disconnect and reset. He observed, at first, that it occasionally failed to properly reset. He then did it several times again until it seemed to properly disconnect and reset. Excuse my terminology if not exactly accurate but you should get the idea, the hammer was not resetting properly. He then test-fired a couple mags and all was fine. He advised me to do the same exercise, 1-200 times to manually deburr the surfaces. Said it's a break-in issue? Was wondering if just a little polishing with a Dremel, fabric polishing wheel and a little polishing compund is appropriate? |
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[#30]
Quoted:
Update on the second round firing issue: The PSA store's resident AR guru test-fired the rifle and experienced the same failures. He then manually worked the trigger while controlling the hammer many times to exercise the disconnect and reset. He observed, at first, that it occasionally failed to properly reset. He then did it several times again until it seemed to properly disconnect and reset. Excuse my terminology if not exactly accurate but you should get the idea, the hammer was not resetting properly. He then test-fired a couple mags and all was fine. He advised me to do the same exercise, 1-200 times to manually deburr the surfaces. Said it's a break-in issue? Was wondering if just a little polishing with a Dremel, fabric polishing wheel and a little polishing compund is appropriate? View Quote Based on what you're saying is that the trigger's hammer is following the bolt? Such that when you attempt to pull the trigger, the hammer doesn't fall because it's already fallen? You have to manually cycle the bolt so that the hammer resets? A trigger/FCG does not have to be "broken in" in such a manner. A trigger is supposed to work 100% of the time, and the trigger should ALWAYS reset after firing and the carrier goes back home. If it does not, then there is something wrong with it. It does not need to be "broken in." It's very unclear what you meant by the " PSA store's resident AR guru." He does not sound like a qualified gun smith and just simply someone who they passed to you as a "expert." I would first not listen to his advice. I would call PSA. Please do this as your safety and others are in question here by having a rifle that does not reset properly. There is a chance the rifle could go full auto with a hammer follow. Please post your problems at the industry forum here: https://www.ar15.com/forums/f_2/301_Palmetto_State_Armory.html A rep from the company should get in touch with you and start you on a ticket to get your rifle checked out. |
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[#31]
Also I would imagine any qualified "AR guru" would not recommend polishing the trigger, especially to someone who doesn't appear to know what he is doing. It's sort of like if you took a car in for repair, the "resident car guru" tells you you have to polish your spark plugs then sends you off. If the PSA store doesn't want to replace your FCG, for free under warranty, then I would raise hell.
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[#32]
Quoted: Also I would imagine any qualified "AR guru" would not recommend polishing the trigger, especially to someone who doesn't appear to know what he is doing. It's sort of like if you took a car in for repair, the "resident car guru" tells you you have to polish your spark plugs then sends you off. If the PSA store doesn't want to replace your FCG, for free under warranty, then I would raise hell. View Quote If you re-read my earlier post, the question about lightly polishing referred to the hammer/disconnector surfaces, NOT the trigger, to help minimize the chance of a remaining burr. |
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[#33]
Quoted:
He did not recommend polishing trigger. Trigger is not the issue he described. He said it was the hammer/disconnector interface that was 'hanging,' probably a manuf. burr, and not allowing the hammer to fully reset after a fired round. As I described, it appeared that after more manual cycles it was working properly. If you re-read my earlier post, the question about lightly polishing referred to the hammer/disconnector surfaces, NOT the trigger, to help minimize the chance of a remaining burr. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
Quoted:
Also I would imagine any qualified "AR guru" would not recommend polishing the trigger, especially to someone who doesn't appear to know what he is doing. It's sort of like if you took a car in for repair, the "resident car guru" tells you you have to polish your spark plugs then sends you off. If the PSA store doesn't want to replace your FCG, for free under warranty, then I would raise hell. If you re-read my earlier post, the question about lightly polishing referred to the hammer/disconnector surfaces, NOT the trigger, to help minimize the chance of a remaining burr. I would recommend getting the trigger replaced. Either go back to the store or drop a post on the PSA Industry forum here on the site. I do not think there should be any breaking in of the trigger. Yes stock triggers are usually rough with burrs and might feel gritty/hard but it shouldn't bind. You might try to blast the internals with some good degreaser to see if any packing oil is stuck on there but otherwise I would recommend taking it back. |
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[#34]
So was the hammer following or was the disconnector not releasing when trigger was released?
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[#35]
Sorry for delayed followup.
The disconnector was not fully releasing the hammer. In the week or so since I went to the PSA store I cycled the trigger/hammer 100-150 times as he instructed. I took it to the range yesterday and ran full 4 mags with no problem whatsoever. So, I have to assume it's as I was told that there was a slight burr that's now resolved. Had there been a problem I was prepared to ask for a new lower. Obviously that particular premium lower did not get sufficiently polished as the specs state - "Polished Nickel coated fire control group" Now we're ready to move forward learning and buying necessary items: Scope Rings or Mount, Sling, more mags, etc. Thanks for the help. |
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[#36]
Glad you got it taken care of.
Probably could've just hit the disco with an array of honing stones or sand paper. I would've taken it up to 1200 grit. I've heard not to do this on the sear surfaces but thousands of rounds later I'm not seeing an issue. Maybe someone can give a legit explanation as to why. |
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