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Posted: 8/6/2017 11:19:27 PM EDT
A guy I work with told me he has had slam fire issues with his M&P.  He has been using factory ammo and no AR mods.  I suggested he try a new firing pin.  Asking here for more knowledgeable opinions.  Thanks.
Link Posted: 8/6/2017 11:25:59 PM EDT
[#1]
I'd have him look more into his trigger group....

And ensure he is cleaning and lubing it correctly and lightly with CLP.


Slam fires are unheard of unless something is bad wrong.
Link Posted: 8/6/2017 11:49:05 PM EDT
[#2]
5.45?
Link Posted: 8/7/2017 12:09:07 AM EDT
[#3]
IMO, serious issue. If it's a new, unmodified gun, back to the shop it goes.
Link Posted: 8/7/2017 1:36:18 AM EDT
[#4]
There is no chance it has the 60's era firing pin with much more mass....I can't imagine what is wrong.
Link Posted: 8/7/2017 3:42:22 AM EDT
[#5]
If its a factory M&P, I would guess the issue is in the firing pin being too long, or somehow sticking in the firing position, or overall bolt length being slightly too short from rear to bolt face?

Tell him to start by getting a new BCG. Or a firing pin and bolt at a minimum
Link Posted: 8/7/2017 8:17:30 AM EDT
[#6]
Nevermind...
Link Posted: 8/7/2017 8:51:31 AM EDT
[#7]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
If its a factory M&P, I would guess the issue is in the firing pin being too long, or somehow sticking in the firing position, or overall bolt length being slightly too short from rear to bolt face?

Tell him to start by getting a new BCG. Or a firing pin and bolt at a minimum
View Quote
This is where I would start lookin...
Link Posted: 8/7/2017 9:09:15 AM EDT
[#8]
Topic Moved
Link Posted: 8/8/2017 11:26:13 AM EDT
[#9]
Shouldn't he be able to test if it's the trigger group by dropping to bolt on an empty chamber then opening the action by takedown pin to see if the hammer released? Test with safety on, off, and on/off with trigger held back.

If that doesn't do it, then I'd start looking at the firing pin and bolt.
Link Posted: 8/8/2017 11:29:32 AM EDT
[#10]
Is he loading a round fully in the chamber and dropping the bolt?
Link Posted: 8/8/2017 8:50:54 PM EDT
[#11]
Remove the bolt carrier group and push the firing pin forward while it's assembled. Make sure it isn't sticking in the forward position.

Completely disassemble the BCG and clean it with solvent, compressed air and lube it vigorously. Everything should be lubed except the firing pin and the firing pin channel.  

If this doesn't fix the problem send it back to S&W.

I have never had a slam fire in an AR15, but my M1 Garand is a different story. This can end horrifically if not fixed.
Link Posted: 8/10/2017 2:26:34 PM EDT
[#12]
Link Posted: 8/10/2017 2:41:17 PM EDT
[#13]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Both the Ar15 and Garand/M14 have firing pin blocks to keep the FOP from running forward full tilt.
If I was a betting man, would dare to bet the the Free gap of the disco is way too wide, which is not holding the hammer back on the disco as the bolt slams closed, and this is causing the double fire instead.
View Quote
There is no such "firing pin block" in an AR, but the firing pin cannot protrude from the bolt face until it nearly locked into battery due to the angled cam slot.
Unless it's a model with a firing pin spring, every single round that is chambered will get a dimple in the primer from the firing pin tapping it as the bolt closes.
If the bolt is moving fast enough the floating firing pin could set off the round.
Link Posted: 8/10/2017 2:54:35 PM EDT
[#14]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
If the bolt is moving fast enough the floating firing pin could set off the round.
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What you said is "possible" but practically unheard of.  And certainly would not be the first guess when someone is reporting a slam fire.
Link Posted: 8/10/2017 3:44:41 PM EDT
[#15]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
What you said is "possible" but practically unheard of.  And certainly would not be the first guess when someone is reporting a slam fire.
View Quote
The ATF used such an occurrence with soft primers to convict Olofson ~10 years ago.
Practically impossible with loads with standard semi-auto primers while feeding from a magazine.
Entirely possible (depending on the round/primer) if a round is dropped into the chamber and then the bolt dropped using the bolt release.

I've done it several times with pistol caliber DI guns, despite the camming action of the bolt.
Link Posted: 8/10/2017 5:20:57 PM EDT
[#16]
OP,

Ask your "friend" what brand of ammo he is using, OR if he is firing Reloads.

With Reloads, if the primers are not being seated properly, and are slightly high, slam fires become a possibility.  High primers are easily detected by inspection.  The primers should be seated flush or slightly below the surface of the brass/casings.  Also, soft primers are more prone to premature firing in a semi-auto loading gun than the harder primers that are made specifically for use in semi-auto loading firearms.

If your friend has been shooting Reloads, have him try shooing U.S. Commercial made M855 or M193 ammo to see if the problem reoccurs, and if it does, have him send the gun back to S&W for Warranty Repair.
Link Posted: 8/10/2017 11:33:18 PM EDT
[#17]
Link Posted: 8/10/2017 11:45:42 PM EDT
[#18]
Link Posted: 8/11/2017 12:29:53 AM EDT
[#19]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
I have seen a couple of early M16's that had the large heavy mass firing pin, that had enough force to slam fire upon loading, and slam fire when cycling causing bursts.  This was due to too much mass of firing pin.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/0603/Ekie12091941/variation%20guide/firingpins.jpg



While teaching an Armorer course at a Law Enforcement Academy, the State Game & Fish Officers brought a couple of LMT 308 rifles to class that were slam firing upon loading, and firing bursts when shooting semi-auto.  Upon inspection, I didn't see anything out of the norm.  After playing around with these rifles, I determined that the slam fires were most likely due to the extremely long heavy duty action spring (Buffer Spring) that was inside the stock system.  What we figured out is that the heavy resistance spring was slowing the action during the rearward cycles of fire, but the heavy spring was also speeding up the bolt carrier going forward, and this extra force going forward was causing the free floating firing pin to impact the primer on the ammunition with enough force to make it fire.  We put standard action springs in the rifles, along with heavier buffers from HeavyBuffers.com, and the rifles ran flawless.      


CY6
Greg Sullivan "Sully"
SLR15 Rifles
TheDefensiveEdge.com
(763) 712-0123
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:


What you said is "possible" but practically unheard of.  And certainly would not be the first guess when someone is reporting a slam fire.
I have seen a couple of early M16's that had the large heavy mass firing pin, that had enough force to slam fire upon loading, and slam fire when cycling causing bursts.  This was due to too much mass of firing pin.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/0603/Ekie12091941/variation%20guide/firingpins.jpg



While teaching an Armorer course at a Law Enforcement Academy, the State Game & Fish Officers brought a couple of LMT 308 rifles to class that were slam firing upon loading, and firing bursts when shooting semi-auto.  Upon inspection, I didn't see anything out of the norm.  After playing around with these rifles, I determined that the slam fires were most likely due to the extremely long heavy duty action spring (Buffer Spring) that was inside the stock system.  What we figured out is that the heavy resistance spring was slowing the action during the rearward cycles of fire, but the heavy spring was also speeding up the bolt carrier going forward, and this extra force going forward was causing the free floating firing pin to impact the primer on the ammunition with enough force to make it fire.  We put standard action springs in the rifles, along with heavier buffers from HeavyBuffers.com, and the rifles ran flawless.      


CY6
Greg Sullivan "Sully"
SLR15 Rifles
TheDefensiveEdge.com
(763) 712-0123
And again - on a standard AR15 - this is relatively unheard of.  It is only seen in rare edge cases like your comments above.
Link Posted: 8/11/2017 12:35:19 AM EDT
[#20]
This mirrors the testing I have done:

Pistol primers in AR-15 = Slamfire?
Link Posted: 8/11/2017 2:33:49 PM EDT
[#21]
Link Posted: 8/11/2017 9:48:16 PM EDT
[#22]
I'd love to see that test done with a "high primer" from a bad load. Both with rifle and pistol primers.

Today I learned that pistol primers are softer...

I had demonstrated a primer once (5.56), pulled the bullet and dumped the power. Locked case into vice and was beating that damn thing pretty hard with a center punch and hammer. It took quite a hit to set it off. FWIW it was a wolf gold that I used. Also, that was loud. Louder than a .22. Wasn't expecting that...
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