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Page AR-15 » Troubleshooting
AR Sponsor: bravocompany
Posted: 7/17/2017 9:24:39 AM EDT
Firearm History: M&P 15 MOE purchased in 2009. No modifications other than furniture. Estimated round count is 3-4k rounds.

This gun has been a stellar performer before now with all ammo, and this came out of the blue. I shot a 2Gun match Saturday and had what is pictured below happen to me twice. First time I was smart enough to check the ejection port, second time I ran the charging handle and made it worse

Took it home, stripped the gun, BCG, and lower down, degreased and re-lubed.  I loaded 5 rounds (Lake City 5.56) into 5 different newer (less than 4 months old) PMAGS and got three malfunctions.  They typically look like this:





Half the time the spent casing stovepipes, half the time I get the bolt bound into the side of the round attempting to feed.  Any thoughts?

I ordered a BCM upgraded extractor kit hoping that solves it.
Link Posted: 7/17/2017 1:32:44 PM EDT
[#1]
Have you checked your gas rings?

Will rounds load/unload successfully while manually operating the gun?
Link Posted: 7/17/2017 5:59:48 PM EDT
[#2]
Those are all typical signs of short-stroking...

Last pic indicates that the bolt-carrier never got fully behind the round and dragged it off the mag & partially into the chamber.
First pic shows that the carrier didn't have the rear-ward force to fully eject the casing.
Second pic shows the carrier never achieved enough forward force to fully chamber the round.

Now - There are several possible causes for short-stoking...

1 - weapon not properly cleaned/lubricated, which doesn't appear to be the case in this instance.
2 - weak ammunition (powder deterioration) - have you tried using a fresh batch of alternate ammo? Does the problem still persist?
3 - gas leaks - check for broken gas rings, broken/loose carrier key &/or carrier key bolts, signs of gas leaks around the gas-block/front sight base.
4 - cracked bolt assembly - check it for cracks @ the cam pin (also check for a cracked cam pin) - cracks in either can be a source for either gas leaks or the cam pin head excessively dragging along the inside of the upper receiver
4 - faulty/deteriorated magazines and/or magazine springs. - Are you keeping the mags fully loaded for extended periods of time?...This can cause the spring to take a set, producing weakened results (especially for the last half of the rounds contained in the mag) When springs become weak, the last couple of rounds in the mag do not feed properly, & often get popped severely upward on the tip end of the cartridge as the carrier moves rearward & clears the top of the magazine.

Hope this helps,
FlDiveCop71
Link Posted: 7/18/2017 10:09:36 AM EDT
[#3]
Did you check the ejector?
Maybe the spring is weak, broken or somehow bound up.
Take your bolt out and hook a casing under the extractor, pivot the case so it depresses the ejector, then let go of the case. It should fling the case quite a ways.
Link Posted: 7/18/2017 10:48:23 AM EDT
[#4]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Did you check the ejector?
Maybe the spring is weak, broken or somehow bound up.
Take your bolt out and hook a casing under the extractor, pivot the case so it depresses the ejector, then let go of the case. It should fling the case quite a ways.
View Quote
I did, but I dont have another bolt to compare it to. Looking online my spring is a LOT shorter than the enhanced springs and it was not nearly as difficult to install during reassembly. I was able to hold it in place with thumb and finger and install the pin.  It flung a casing a foot or so.
Link Posted: 7/18/2017 10:54:06 AM EDT
[#5]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Those are all typical signs of short-stroking...

Last pic indicates that the bolt-carrier never got fully behind the round and dragged it off the mag & partially into the chamber.
First pic shows that the carrier didn't have the rear-ward force to fully eject the casing.
Second pic shows the carrier never achieved enough forward force to fully chamber the round.

Now - There are several possible causes for short-stoking...

1 - weapon not properly cleaned/lubricated, which doesn't appear to be the case in this instance.
2 - weak ammunition (powder deterioration) - have you tried using a fresh batch of alternate ammo? Does the problem still persist?
3 - gas leaks - check for broken gas rings, broken/loose carrier key &/or carrier key bolts, signs of gas leaks around the gas-block/front sight base.
4 - cracked bolt assembly - check it for cracks @ the cam pin (also check for a cracked cam pin) - cracks in either can be a source for either gas leaks or the cam pin head excessively dragging along the inside of the upper receiver
4 - faulty/deteriorated magazines and/or magazine springs. - Are you keeping the mags fully loaded for extended periods of time?...This can cause the spring to take a set, producing weakened results (especially for the last half of the rounds contained in the mag) When springs become weak, the last couple of rounds in the mag do not feed properly, & often get popped severely upward on the tip end of the cartridge as the carrier moves rearward & clears the top of the magazine.

Hope this helps,
FlDiveCop71
View Quote
Thanks.  The ammo I used in the match was Perfecta, used for the pictures was AE/Lake City.

Checked the rings, they look okay, nothing broken in BCG or Bolt. Gas key was good to go.

I do leave my mags loaded (what good are they unloaded), but I tried with two PMAGS that had never been stored loaded for extended periods. Those two mags are FDE that I use during hunting season to keep soft point ammo seperate. I might purchase a brand new mag and see if it helps.

Bolt locks back every time on all mags.  The onset was sudden, as I wasn't experiencing this a week or so ago.
Link Posted: 7/18/2017 10:59:21 AM EDT
[#6]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Have you checked your gas rings?

Will rounds load/unload successfully while manually operating the gun?
View Quote
I checked gas rings. Gun cycles manually fine, problems only occur during live fire.
Link Posted: 7/18/2017 12:27:06 PM EDT
[#7]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
I checked gas rings. Gun cycles manually fine, problems only occur during live fire.
View Quote
Visual inspection is not enough.  

Link Posted: 7/18/2017 1:39:44 PM EDT
[#8]
Thanks guys. I just ordered a complete bolt rebuild kit from BCM. I'll rehab the bolt when it comes in and see if it helps.

ETA: Just got home and stood the bcg on the bolt face to check the rings. Assembly stays extended but the slightest tap and it collapses.
Link Posted: 7/18/2017 11:39:45 PM EDT
[#9]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Thanks guys. I just ordered a complete bolt rebuild kit from BCM. I'll rehab the bolt when it comes in and see if it helps.

ETA: Just got home and stood the bcg on the bolt face to check the rings. Assembly stays extended but the slightest tap and it collapses.
View Quote
Had this issue with my Colt Sporter Lightweight, new gas rings in another BCG fixed it.   New gas rings in the original BCG didn't fix it.  Going to try a lighter buffer with this BCG next time I go to the range, was using a H2 buffer
Link Posted: 7/21/2017 11:50:55 AM EDT
[#10]
While I'm at it, would it be a good idea to pick up a H2 buffer to try? I know a lot of factory guns made at that time were overgassed and I'm wondering if a combo of ejector/gas rings/buffer has the bolt moving fast enough to cause the problem.
Link Posted: 7/21/2017 2:07:33 PM EDT
[#11]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
While I'm at it, would it be a good idea to pick up a H2 buffer to try? I know a lot of factory guns made at that time were overgassed and I'm wondering if a combo of ejector/gas rings/buffer has the bolt moving fast enough to cause the problem.
View Quote
If you think you're overgassed, consider a an adjustable gas block.

If you're buying another buffer, an H3 buffer can be disassembled and mixed with a regular carbine buffer to give you H1, H2, or H3 configurations.

That said, if the gas rings are shot, a buffer won't help much.
Link Posted: 7/22/2017 11:12:14 AM EDT
[#12]
Link Posted: 7/23/2017 9:26:00 PM EDT
[#13]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

Had this issue with my Colt Sporter Lightweight, new gas rings in another BCG fixed it.   New gas rings in the original BCG didn't fix it.  Going to try a lighter buffer with this BCG next time I go to the range, was using a H2 buffer
View Quote
Went to the range today.  Runs like a champ with another BCG with new gas rings.  Still double feeds on the original BCG.  Tried a lighter buffer, shot OK for 6-8 shots then double feed today.

At this point pretty sure it's the extractor or extractor spring, the extractor on this bolt can be moved rather easily.
Link Posted: 7/28/2017 9:57:47 AM EDT
[#14]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Gas ring test is to put the bolt pull out upwards with the back of the carrier on the table ,and see if the bolt weight itself will drop the bolt on the carrier from not enough gas ring tension.
Not the weight of the carrier pushing down on the bolt instead.


By the numbers since I doubt that you need to rebuild anything on the rifle (only 4K of rounds), but instead just do a good cleaning and check for gas leaks.

Pull back on the charging handle, and look where the face of the bolt stops against the back edge of the ejection port window.  The correct distance should be face of the bolt 1/4" to 1/8: in front of the ejection port window back edge.  If needed, pull the buffer and spring, and start dropping quarters down the tube as shims to get the bolt face to stop the correct distant on a full charging handle pull.  If you want the permanent solution, it to pull the receiver extension to shorter the end of it to allow it to be threaded into the receiver more instead.

On the upper, use a chamber brush with CLP and clean the chamber by hand.  While you have the CLP out, put a few drops between the end of the gas tube to gas block, gas block front and back to the barrel, and charge the gas tube from within the receiver with a piece of rubber tubing to about 100lbs of air, and looks for leaks of the gas block against the barrel, and the gas tube in the gas block.  On the B/C, few drops on the sides of the key, hold the bolt in, pressurize the front of the key with 100lbs, and make sure that the key is not leaking at the top of the carrier (read snapped key bolt).

Now pull the B/C apart, pull the extractor, and make sure that the grabbing claw of it is still sharp and the extractor spring still has plenty of tension.  After you have cleaned the B/C and have it back together, hook a spent case on the extractor, and cam the ejector in a few times flush to the bolt face.  The ejector should be under a lot of spring tension, but should not be binding up as it moving in and out of the bolt face channel.  If the extractor is binding, then you may luck out by adding CLP to it back weep channel on the side of the bolt and working it in and out via the spent case, or you may have to pull the extractor to clean the channel instead.


As for once the entire rig has been correctly cleaned and the upper receiver bearing areas CLP lubed, load only a single round into a mag and shoot the single round with the empty mag still in the well.  The bolt should lock back on the bolt catch (bolt catch in front of the bolt, and not just under the carrier holding it back), with the spent case traveling about 10' to 15' out.  Now go find the spent case, and take a good look at the spent case rim for any kind of bending of the case rim from the extractor.

Hence not enough gas and the rig will short stroke with the case rim not bent.  Too much gas to open the bolt too fast, and the extractor will bend the hell out of the rim on the spent case pull instead.
Note, chamber not scrubbed correctly during cleaning (fouling removed all the way to the last of chamber cut) will end up with a bent spent case rim as well.  If you want to know if you are getting the chamber correctly cleaned via scrubbing by hand (all the way to the last chamber of the chamber cut), then  new/clean 30 cal mop with a hint of CLP on it spun deep into the chamber.  If pull the mop out and find it fouling, your not scrubbing the chamber correctly to remove the fouling at the last of chamber cut.

As for mag release, make sure that the end of the threaded section is flush with mag release button.

One last item, and clean and check you mags.   The mags should be pulled all the way down to CLP clean them about every third firing use, as well as checking the mag lips and back U channel as well.   Really, the easy test to see if the mag is not the problem, clean and fully load the mag, then give the bottom of it a good rasp off something like a piece of wood.  If the mag fountains the rounds out of it during the rasp, you got problems with the mag with either problems with the feed lips or the follower spring tension becoming too weak isntead.
View Quote
Thanks for the detailed response.

I have hopefully fixed the issue. In addition to the rebuild kit, I got an H2 buffer as well. I ran 30 rounds through 6 mags yesterday with no issues.  Ejection was about 2:00 and positive.
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