User Panel
Posted: 2/22/2017 12:04:37 PM EDT
I built an LR 308 last fall and it fires great and I actually took three whitetails with it last fall but it fails to properly extract every 3-4 rounds. I can't seem to find anything obviously wrong. A local gunsmith and his friend formerly from DPMS looked it over and finally swapped out the BCG with a DPMS one and they were able to fire a 30 round mag with no problems. The gunsmith then took two other BCG he had and it still had the same problem. Not sure exactly what to do. The BCG is Aero Precision and they are sending me a new one and have been great to work with but I'm still a bit confused. Any suggestions for things to look for?
Here are the specs on the gun I recall off hand. - Spikes Jack upper lower - Anderson 18" barrel - Odin works handguard - Mid length gas tube - Aero BCG - Magpul ACS-L - DPMS 308 LPK |
|
[#1]
How does the chamber on your barrel look? Any rough places or machining marks?
|
|
[#2]
Not that I noticed. The gun only has 50 or so rounds through it. I did reach out to Anderson (barrel) and Aero (BCG). Anderson said it was the Fusion 308 ammo I was using so I bought a few varieties of 308 and 7.62. Still had the problem. Aero said I should remove a black o-ring from the bolt. At this point I put it away until I could get it to the gunsmith who put the barrel on and checked the head spacing.
For more clarification on the ejecting issue...every 3rd round or so the spent cartridge is not full ejected from the upper. Most of the time it is extracted completely but one time the ejector rim was actually broken in one small spot. |
|
[#3]
Also, the Gunsmith still has the gun. I might be able to pick it up this weekend and take a closer look. He has a DPMS BCG on order to try.
|
|
[#4]
The AR's in 308 have two completely different systems.
The first is a DPMS/Stoner, and the second is an Armilte system. Hence you have to make dam sure that the barrel (chamber) that you have in play, matches the bolt in play, or the head space is going to be off. Also, you can not use a Armalite narrow hammer slot carrier with a wide style DPMS/Stoner hammer. Next is a great deal of 308 barrels come chamber tight as well (side wall dimensions), so you have to not only chamber brush clean them each time you clean (even before you shoot them), but remember to clean and lube with the correct solvents as well. Simply, after checking Anderson site, It does not tell me if the barrel was chambered DPMS/stoner, or Armlite, and would not be suprised if not only the head space if off for the bolt in play, but chamber side walls may be too side wall tight as well for an auto loading rifle. With luck, the head space is fine, and your smith may just have to take a chamber reamer by hand to clean up the chamber instead. Once the above is taken out of play, then you can start to determine if the rifle is over functioning, or have a gas leak instead. |
|
[#5]
An 18" middy .308 having extraction issues? Inconceivable!
You need a way to adjust the gas system and the heaviest recoil assembly you can get in it. |
|
[#6]
I got the gun back from the shop so I can exchange the Aero BCG but I'm not at all sold on that being the issue. The gunsmith said he tried 4 BCG and of the 4 only the DPMS one worked. Hard for me to believe 4 out of 5 wouldn't work (4th being the original) if the BCG were the actual problem.
It's been awhile since I've posted pics in a forum and I couldn't find instructions in here on how to do that. The barrel looks fine, no machining marks I could see. I think the buffer suggestion might be a good place to start. I have marks on my lower where the BCG is slamming into it. I did remove one of two o-rings from the extractor spring per a recommendation from Aero and still having the problem. The error looks exactly like another recent 308 post where you all talked about types of ammo. I have tried 4-5 different types of factory 7.62 and 308. |
|
[#7]
This would be a fun one to have in my hands at an armorer course, as it would allow several inspections and discussions as to possible causes and how to fix it.
There are many reasons that a rifle may be failing to extract. Here are a few possibilities: When the empty casing is left in the chamber when the bolt carrier assembly goes to the rear, it is a fail to extract. So when you have a fail to extract and the empty casing is left in the chamber, how do you remove it? Are you able to remove the empty casing by manually cycling the action, or do you have to force the empty casing out by pushing a cleaning rod down the muzzle and forcing it out of the chamber? If you can cycle the action manually and remove the empty case, then you have to try and figure out why the extractor didn't pull it out when the bolt carrier assembly went to the rear under gas pressure. Look at the empty casing for any signs of oil or solvents that may be sweating out of the metal pores, indicating that the chamber needs to be cleaned with a good chamber brush and solvent, then swabbed out with denatured alcohol to remove all solvents/lubes so it is totally dry. Look at the lip of the case for marks from the extractor, where it might show deformities or where the extractor isn't getting a good hold and slipping off the edge of the casing. Remove the extractor and look at the lip where it makes contact with the casing, looking for debris or bad machining where it isn't able to get a good hold on the lip of the cartridge. It could be a badly machined extractor, weak extractor tension, or several things are out of tolerance in a term we call stacking. Etc If you have to push a cleaning rod down the muzzle and force the empty casing out, then the question is what is holding the casing in the chamber. Start with a thorough cleaning of the chamber to make sure there is no debris or fouling. With a chamber mirror or borescope, look inside the chamber for deformities, scratches, or bad machining that would cause the casing to stick. Inspect the front of the fired casings that stick, looking for signs of no free-bore, we have seen the several times on .308 barrels. If you have access to a borescope, look inside the chamber and at the free-bore area, also gauge the rifle for proper headspace. Look at the lip of the failed to extract casings, inspect the lips for signs where the lip is being ripped off by the extractor. If the lip of the casing is being ripped off by the extractor, this is a sign that the gun may be unlocking too early. If the gun is unlocking too early, then consider adding a heavier buffering system from HeavyBuffers.com, or if you have an adjustable gas block then reduce some of the gas. Etc CY6 Greg Sullivan "Sully" SLR15 Rifles TheDefensiveEdge.com (763) 712-0123 |
|
[#8]
Sully
Thanks for the info and pointing out that I said failure to extract...I'm sorry I meant eject. And yes the ejector ring has damage on several rounds and the first ever round did break. When it jams it stove pipes and most of the time actual jams the next round into the feed ramp at the same time. I also read another post from earlier this month that discussed the BCG damaging the lower around where the buffer tube meets. That would tell me the BCG is traveling too far. I'm assuming a heavier buffer might solve this and if so could that be contributing to my ejection issue? |
|
[#9]
|
|
[#10]
well the preview showed the pic without the link but oh well.
|
|
[#11]
|
|
[#12]
I highly doubt it's a problem with the Federal Fusion ammunition, especially since you're having problems with other ammunition. Did you or the gunsmith you took it to, gauge it for proper headspace? Did the gunsmith use a borescope to see if it's a problem like a lack of free-bore? Inspect the empty casings that are failing to eject, looking at the front, sides, lip, and back end. Are there any marks or dings that would help indicate what may be going on? Try manually cycling a few different types of ammunition through it, and when you remove these, look at the bullet and end of the casing to see if there are any signs where the casing or bullet may be getting deformed.
A fail to eject can be similar to causes and remedies of a fail to extract, but could also be different. Start with a thorough cleaning of the chamber using a chamber brush and good solvent. Then swab out the chamber with denatured alcohol to make sure all traces of solvent or lubricant are removed, as any solvent/lube left in the pores can sweat out when the chamber gets hot and cause casings to stick or pull out slow, and sometimes even deform casings. Clean the bolt carrier assembly, and make sure the gas rings have a seal, also check to see that the carrier key (gas key) is tight and properly staked. Next lubricate the 7 bolt lugs and rails of the bolt carrier so that they are good and wet (glistening like a glazed donut, you can't get them too wet imho) using a good lubricant like Slip2000 "EWL" Extreme Weapons Lube. Then on the next range session, only load one round into a magazine at a time when firing, to see if the bolt carrier assembly will lock back after the round is ejected. If it isn't locking back, this could be a sign that the bolt carrier can't go back far enough from parts that are out of spec or tolerance, or it could be lack of gas pressure, gun is cycling out of proper timing, or there is too much friction where things are dragging, etc. CY6 Greg Sullivan "Sully" SLR15 Rifles TheDefensiveEdge.com (763) 712-0123 |
|
[#13]
Also looking at this pic, like you said, it does appear that there is a spot on the lower left side of the buffer tube where the bolt carrier may be impacting it. Is that also a mark on the lower right side. and another mark at about 12:30-1:00 where the carrier (gas key) may be hitting as well? CY6 Greg Sullivan "Sully" SLR15 Rifles TheDefensiveEdge.com (763) 712-0123 |
|
[#14]
Yes, lower left and right side are almost mirror image of each other. There is no mark on the upper portion. The buffer itself has a mark in the 11:30-12 area. I don't want to bad mouth the gunsmith because you probably know him and he has been good to work with so far. He did attach the barrel and check headspacing for me. Since it was my first build I was a bit nervous about doing that myself.
I see your in MN as well and from your website I'm guessing your probably pretty close to me. At this point I have the BCG out because I was supposed to send it back to Aero but I don't believe that's the issue any more. Next steps from what I'm ready here and from other threads with similar problems would be to thoroughly clean it and lube it up really good. Shoot a few and if not fixed, get a heavier buffer (and spring?), check the gas block and possibly replace with adjustable. Is there such a thing as a light weight BCG? Could that be why the DPMS one that was tried worked where all others failed? Also, I do have some of the spent casings and one has a broken extractor ring, most others have significant "denting" on the forward side of the ring. Could also be the barrel is too tight or the casing isn't releasing from the barrel quick enough (I know there's a technical term for that...). The fun part of all this is that I am being forced to learn a ton. If the gun just went together and shot perfectly I wouldn't learn anything! The 223 Wylde I built works great by the way. |
|
[#15]
That gun is overcycling. Sometimes the extractor will jump the rim, or outright tear through it, leave the case in the chamber and then the empty slides out when the BCG hits the back of its travel.
It should have had a longer gas system on it, but barring that, it must have an adjustable gas block or key at a minimum, along with the heaviest buffer that can be put in it. |
|
[#16]
Yes, lower left and right side are almost mirror image of each other. There is no mark on the upper portion. The buffer itself has a mark in the 11:30-12 area. View Quote Just a wild-ass guess but I think your buffer is too short and the carrier is hitting the end of the receiver extension, peening the end of the raised rail sections on the carrier and the end of the receiver extension tube. |
|
[#17]
Quoted:
Just a wild-ass guess but I think your buffer is too short and the carrier is hitting the end of the receiver extension, peening the end of the raised rail sections on the carrier and the end of the receiver extension tube. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
Yes, lower left and right side are almost mirror image of each other. There is no mark on the upper portion. The buffer itself has a mark in the 11:30-12 area. Just a wild-ass guess but I think your buffer is too short and the carrier is hitting the end of the receiver extension, peening the end of the raised rail sections on the carrier and the end of the receiver extension tube. |
|
[#19]
Could be. I don't have a picture of that but I don't notice it in the shoulder.
I'll give a heavier buffer a shot. The one in there is a standard DPMS LR-308 3.84 ounce one and the standard carbine length spring. If I can find a reasonably priced adjustable block I'll get one of those. Anyone tried the JP Enterprises Silent Captured Heavy Recoil Buffer Spring Assembly? Or is that just a gimmick and go with something else. Sounds like everyone is pretty sure it's not the BCG so I should be able to hang onto the one I have for now. |
|
[#20]
You might try taking the spring off the buffer and putting the buffer in the tube with the BCG on top of it, just to see if it is too short.
It shouldn't hit the tube like that, and it would be good to rule that out now. I recommend either more tungsten in the buffer or a heavy buffer made out of steel from Slash at Heavy Buffers. |
|
[#21]
I'm not sure I understand. Should the length of the buffer combined with the back end of the BCG be the same length as tube? How far should the buffer travel in the tube normally?
|
|
[#22]
The BCG should not contact the tube with the parts stacked together.
|
|
[#23]
Oh, you're talking about checking to see if the tube is too short. Got it.
Thanks. I'll check that tonight. |
|
[#24]
|
|
[#25]
|
|
[#26]
I bet it's compressing the nylon pad on the buffer. That indicates it's severely over cycling.
Thanks for the pics. |
|
[#28]
Would you guys recommend the 5.5 oz buffer from HeavyBuffers.com or do I need to go all the way to the 6.5? I will be getting an adjustable gas block as well.
|
|
[#29]
Go as heavy as you can. With a mid-length gas tube you have high port pressure and a fairly long pressure impulse period pushing the carrier group mass to unlock.
Stay with a standard spring. A heavy spring will resist unlocking a bit, but it will also slam the carrier group home. It's only miliseconds but you want the magazine spring to push the follower and the next round up before the bottom face of the bolt passes over the base of the next cartridge to feed and chamber. |
|
[#30]
I'm still waiting for my heavy buffer from Clint and my adjustable gas block but just a quick update. I went to settle up with the gunsmith and now he's telling me those probably won't fix it because the head spacing is wrong. I said, you put the barrel on and spaced it.
I'm not sure why he wouldn't have mentioned this before. He also said he noticed the impact marks on the lower but didn't think that was the problem. Again it's an aero precision 308 BCG and an Anderson 18" barrel. Both claim to be DPMS style. I'm still moving forward with the buffer and block. |
|
[#32]
Thanks. Next time I am able to get it out I will let you know. In the meantime I'll make sure it's nice and clean and lubed.
|
|
[#33]
Quick update and thanks to everyone here for the help. Got the heavy buffer and the adjustable gas block installed. Took it to the range today and it runs great!!! Tried 4 different types of ammo and it cycled everything.
|
|
Sign up for the ARFCOM weekly newsletter and be entered to win a free ARFCOM membership. One new winner* is announced every week!
You will receive an email every Friday morning featuring the latest chatter from the hottest topics, breaking news surrounding legislation, as well as exclusive deals only available to ARFCOM email subscribers.
AR15.COM is the world's largest firearm community and is a gathering place for firearm enthusiasts of all types.
From hunters and military members, to competition shooters and general firearm enthusiasts, we welcome anyone who values and respects the way of the firearm.
Subscribe to our monthly Newsletter to receive firearm news, product discounts from your favorite Industry Partners, and more.
Copyright © 1996-2024 AR15.COM LLC. All Rights Reserved.
Any use of this content without express written consent is prohibited.
AR15.Com reserves the right to overwrite or replace any affiliate, commercial, or monetizable links, posted by users, with our own.