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Posted: 5/17/2016 11:32:28 PM EDT
I've got a Stag 3GL (lefty version of the 3G).  It has a Lupold Mark 4 4.5-15x50 glass in a Larue qd mount.  Out of the box, it was shooting 2-3moa with factory ammo.  With my handloads (77g SMK OVER Varget), I got it down to about 1.5-2.0 inches but I need tighter groupings than that for what I want to do with the gun...I really need 1moa.

 I bought a larue stealth barrel and it's not much better.  Still shooting about 2moa.  

I've tried a different scope in a different larue qd mount.  Still having the same issues.

I've tried with and without the compensator.

I've tried 3 different 77 grain Factory ammo loads and many many different 55 grain loads.

Both Barrels have been 1 in 8 twist.

Is there something that I'm overlooking or maybe I have missed? I find it hard to believe that I have spent $3,000 on a rifle that shoots 2-inch groups at a hundred yards. I'm ready to wrap the thing around a telephone pole.


For what it's worth, I have a $400 DPMS that I bought at Rural King that shoots slightly better than this gun. While I'm not the world's best Marksman, I'm not bad. I've been through a couple of long range shooting schools and I've been shooting all my life.  I can make a ragged hole with my cz452 American .22 @50 yards.  I can't come close to that with my Stag.
Link Posted: 5/17/2016 11:48:04 PM EDT
[#1]
The first thing I would check is the scope mount integrity. I perform a push test like I did in this video. Any mount movement indicates the mount needs to be tighter or it will always shoot bad groups






I would then review this video and ensure the parallax and eye focus are adjusted perfectly.







I would then make sure I'm using excellent ammunition. My go to for factory loaded 77gr ammunition is Norma Match. Federal Gold Medal is also an industry standard.




One other question, you did tighten the lower half of the scope rings first, right?



Link Posted: 5/17/2016 11:51:17 PM EDT
[#2]
Another question, what position and rests are you utilizing?
Link Posted: 5/17/2016 11:57:52 PM EDT
[#3]
Start looking for shit that carried over from both builds.

Which handguard are you using and who installed it?
Have you tried another upper receiver?

Link Posted: 5/18/2016 12:30:05 AM EDT
[#4]
The mount was tightened per larue's instructions.  Yes, rings were tightened bottom first.  Shooting was all prone.  Bipod dug into the flaps on my shooting mat and a sand sock under the butt stock.  
 I do adjust parallax but I've never adjusted the ocular bell to my eye like he talked about in the video.  I'll try that.  
 I have tried the GMM 77's through the factory barrel but not the new larue barrel...but I did try Black Hills 77's (red box) through the larue barrel and they were horrible.   Four shots were within 2" of eachother then one flyer that took it out to 5"!!!.  I feel very confident that all trigger presses were good.

The upper receiver and handguard were not swapped, only the barrels, scopes and mounts were changed.  The handguard is the factory piece.  (Samson Evolution).   I have taken it off a couple of times.  It's always gone back together without a problem, not contacting the gas block.  Straight as far as my eyes can tell.
Link Posted: 5/18/2016 1:19:12 AM EDT
[#5]
Try another upper receiver. When you go to re assemble everything, pull up the directions and follow the torque specs exactly by the manual.

If that doesn't change anything, try another rail and barrel nut assembly. If you have both, do both at the same time.
Link Posted: 5/18/2016 4:58:56 AM EDT
[#6]
Have you shot it with irons to compare? Just thinking about if it isnt the scope or mount......
Link Posted: 5/18/2016 6:05:00 AM EDT
[#7]
I have not tried shooting iron sights on this gun butt I highly doubt I can shoot much better than 3 Moa with irons.
Link Posted: 5/18/2016 6:48:37 AM EDT
[#8]
SSA-E  Geissele
Link Posted: 5/18/2016 7:11:09 AM EDT
[#9]
Ive had Larue mounts fail my push test when the levers were adjusted by the instructions. I always check them and then tighten the levers up a little more if it's needed.
Link Posted: 5/18/2016 10:06:53 AM EDT
[#10]
If it isn't a mount adjustment issue, try a different scope. I'm guessing something is wrong with your optic.
Link Posted: 5/18/2016 12:11:25 PM EDT
[#11]
How heavy is the trigger pull?

And as RJ pointed out, it could be your optic.  Optics can and do go bad......but first, as others have said, make sure the optic truly is tight and that it's not moving.  Do you have a torque wrench, and is the mount tightened to spec?

Is the optic mounted completely on the receiver, or is any of the mount attached to the handguard?

ETA:  Also, welcome to Arfcom!
Link Posted: 5/18/2016 6:17:05 PM EDT
[#12]
Link Posted: 5/19/2016 4:58:29 PM EDT
[#13]
I have never been able to shoot from a bipod as well as I can with a sling or from a bench. I don't know why, me and bipods don't play well together. Try shooting from sand bags both front and rear.

How tight did you torque the barrel nut? Did the barrel extension fit snug in the upper receiver or was there slop when you installed it? I have used Loctite to bed barrels that didn't fit tightly in the upper, this may help, but you will play hell getting it back apart.

The most accurate bullets from all of my .223/5.56mm rifles have always been 52/53 grain Sierra Match Kings. This is especially true at 100 yards. While the heavy bullets carry better over more real estate, nothing compares with these lighter bullets when it comes to short range groups. I just bought some Hornady 52 grain hpbt's and was rewarded with eleven shots at 100 yards that I could cover with a dime and completely cover with a penny. 22.3 grains of Accurate Arms LT-32 powder, Wolf kvb5,56m primers and Federal nickel plated brass.

This kind of performance is not unusual with light weight bullets, it's harder for whatever reason for me to get this kind of performance with heavier bullets. I'll get close, but not this tight.

I use very high magnification scopes when conducting load testing and group shooting. 20x to 36x scopes are needed to get very small groups on every outing. A 4x scope won't cut it, a 10x scope is the minimum anyone can reasonably expect to get very small groups with day in and day out.

1.25" groups are about the best I can get from rack grade barrels, the chrome lined variety. 1.5" is more common.

Link Posted: 5/21/2016 8:19:48 PM EDT
[#14]
First off, thank you all for the replies.  I truly appreciate all of your input and guidance.  

The rifle has had a total of three scopes on it.  Two Leopold MK 4s and one HORASE?  Something like that.  I can't remember the name of it right now.  Has a very busy reticle that looks like a Christmas tree.  Anyway, at first it was indeed, somewhat of a scope issue.  My new Luepold  was junk.  At this time, the gun was shooting 5" groups.  After the scope was gone through, they tightened up to what it is shooting now.  For whatever reason, the HORASE STILL shoots slightly tighter, with less magnification.  
 Torque specs were followed the first half dozen times I mounted and dismounted the scope from the rings.  (I've been fighting this rifle for over two years) but soon got tired of borrowing tools from friends.  I've got a dozen other rifles that shoot great that were torqued with my calibrated wrist.  ;). That's what I've been using for the last several months.

 Yes, the optic mount is mounted directly to the receiver, not to the handguard.  

I have some photos of the gun but not sure how to post them.  I'm guessing I need to blow the dust off my old photo bucket account.

The "build" isn't really a build.  It's pretty much as it left the factory. Magpul grip and buttstock.  Samson evolution rail covering a Shaw stainless steel, fluted, medium profile barrel.  Rifle length gas system.  The stag 3G comp.  Geissle (not sure how you spell that) two stage trigger.  After having such bad luck, I bought a Larue Stealth barrel.    
More later....
Link Posted: 5/21/2016 8:43:56 PM EDT
[#15]
The Larue Barrel is a mid length gas system.
 As for round count, the Shaw barrel has between 3000-4000 rounds through it.  The Larue is under 100.  It's possible that it will get more accurate in time but at this point, I'm not holding my breath.  
 The Shaw barrel was broken in per Larry Potterfield's instructions which took days to accomplish.  I called larue and asked what their break in procedure is and they said shoot it and clean it when you get home.  Lol, that's what I did. For what it's worth, I never let the barrel get too hot.
Link Posted: 5/21/2016 8:59:50 PM EDT
[#16]
Link Posted: 5/21/2016 9:34:41 PM EDT
[#17]
The upper receiver was never trued by me.  Maybe Stag did it but I never did.  
 Both barrels fit nice and snug inside the receiver as far as I can tell.  ...this was my first AR and the only one I've ever removed the barrel from.  Neither barrel had or has loctite.  

When I torqued the barrel nut, I went to 30 lbs twice then it took 85lbs to index the nut with the opening for the gas tube.  Speaking of which, I did not check index of tube with carrier and key without the bolt.  This is new to me and I'm going to need to research it.  

I took the lower a part once but for the life of me, I can't remember why.  

I have never single shot the gun.  Great idea and I'll try it.

I don't know the distance between the projo and the lands of the barrel.  Is this adjustable in anyway?  I'm sure it could be changed by someone with a lathe... but that's not me.  I was under the understanding that all AR15 rifles were set up on the loose side so knuckle draggers like me don't blow themselves up.  I can't remember the length to the ogive on my hand loads but they do fit in a standard magazine.
Link Posted: 5/21/2016 10:33:13 PM EDT
[#18]
I have not tried any light weight bullets.  I was assuming with the 1:8 twist, they wouldn't stabilize correctly.  As to if the heavier bullets are stabilizing at shorter ranges, in my mind, if you're not accurate at 50 yards, you sure aren't going to be accurate at 500 or double that...
 Everything I've tried has been 55's or 77's.  All three different 77's were SMK BTHP

I like the idea of ditching the Bipod and shooting off bags.  It's something different to try.  As much as I'd hate to admit it, I'd ABSOLUTELY LOVE this to be shooter related and not equipment related.  I was taught to shoot long range by using a Bipod but it was a bolt gun.  This AR is a different animal.
Link Posted: 5/21/2016 10:57:57 PM EDT
[#19]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


That's the glitch, since on a button rifled barrel, you need to let the barrel stress relieve to begin with, then let the rifling fire self lap next.

I'm not saying that you have too let the barrel glow, but you do need to get it hot with some shot string instead. So watch your shot strings (20 round counts), and don't get the barrel all copper fouled up until it does have a chance to both stress relieve and unify the rifling.

Also to point out, shot strings in the 10 to 20 rounds, and not the two's and few's shots instead.


It's an auto loader, and you want to see how the rifling is doing with fouling during the longer shot strings to not foul out quickly to open the group instead.
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
I never let the barrel get too hot.


That's the glitch, since on a button rifled barrel, you need to let the barrel stress relieve to begin with, then let the rifling fire self lap next.

I'm not saying that you have too let the barrel glow, but you do need to get it hot with some shot string instead. So watch your shot strings (20 round counts), and don't get the barrel all copper fouled up until it does have a chance to both stress relieve and unify the rifling.

Also to point out, shot strings in the 10 to 20 rounds, and not the two's and few's shots instead.


It's an auto loader, and you want to see how the rifling is doing with fouling during the longer shot strings to not foul out quickly to open the group instead.


Thanks, will do.

Link Posted: 5/21/2016 11:07:25 PM EDT
[#20]
85ft lb is on the high side for an accuracy build. I would face the upper so it makes torque under 60ft lb.
Link Posted: 5/21/2016 11:34:11 PM EDT
[#21]
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