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Posted: 5/11/2016 1:37:08 PM EDT
I will have trouble describing this because of my ignorance of terminologies so I apologize in advance.  I've machined and built up several 80% lowers without issues until now.  I've got 2 lowers machined the same as the rest with hammer fall problems.  When the hammer is cocked and the trigger pulled the hammer falls fine however if the hammer is cocked when the trigger is held rearward (so the disconnector engages the hammer) the hammer will also fall when the trigger is released.......but only sometimes.  Sometimes it works fine.  I'm stumped.
Link Posted: 5/11/2016 1:42:02 PM EDT
[#1]
1. welcome to the site.
2. ditch the obnoxious font, please...
3. check that your disconnector spring is not in upside-down and that the disconnector is not binding up.
4. did you use a jig to drill your trigger and hammer pin holes?
5. what brand trigger parts?
6. did you attempt any sort of "trigger job" on these lowers?
Link Posted: 5/11/2016 3:47:28 PM EDT
[#2]
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Quoted:
1. welcome to the site.
2. ditch the obnoxious font, please...
3. check that your disconnector spring is not in upside-down and that the disconnector is not binding up.
4. did you use a jig to drill your trigger and hammer pin holes?
5. what brand trigger parts?
6. did you attempt any sort of "trigger job" on these lowers?
View Quote



1.  Thanks
2.  Sorry, comic sans is my favorite.
3.  Spring is properly installed, no binding.
4.  All of my 80% lowers were drilled/milled using the same fixture.
5.  Lower parts kit was bought on Ebay.  First lower using these parts worked perfectly.
6.  Everything is mil spec.
Link Posted: 5/11/2016 4:05:32 PM EDT
[#3]
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Quoted:



1.  Thanks
2.  Sorry, comic sans is my favorite.
3.  Spring is properly installed, no binding.
4.  All of my 80% lowers were drilled/milled using the same fixture.
5.  Lower parts kit was bought on Ebay.  First lower using these parts worked perfectly.
6.  Everything is mil spec.
View Quote View All Quotes
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Quoted:
Quoted:
1. welcome to the site.
2. ditch the obnoxious font, please...
3. check that your disconnector spring is not in upside-down and that the disconnector is not binding up.
4. did you use a jig to drill your trigger and hammer pin holes?
5. what brand trigger parts?
6. did you attempt any sort of "trigger job" on these lowers?



1.  Thanks
2.  Sorry, comic sans is my favorite.
3.  Spring is properly installed, no binding.
4.  All of my 80% lowers were drilled/milled using the same fixture.
5.  Lower parts kit was bought on Ebay.  First lower using these parts worked perfectly.
6.  Everything is mil spec.


I would suspect the cheap-o ebay parts...  Can you give us a link to the ebay auction?
Link Posted: 5/11/2016 4:19:38 PM EDT
[#4]
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Quoted:


I would suspect the cheap-o ebay parts...  Can you give us a link to the ebay auction?
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
1. welcome to the site.
2. ditch the obnoxious font, please...
3. check that your disconnector spring is not in upside-down and that the disconnector is not binding up.
4. did you use a jig to drill your trigger and hammer pin holes?
5. what brand trigger parts?
6. did you attempt any sort of "trigger job" on these lowers?



1.  Thanks
2.  Sorry, comic sans is my favorite.
3.  Spring is properly installed, no binding.
4.  All of my 80% lowers were drilled/milled using the same fixture.
5.  Lower parts kit was bought on Ebay.  First lower using these parts worked perfectly.
6.  Everything is mil spec.


I would suspect the cheap-o ebay parts...  Can you give us a link to the ebay auction?



I can understand what you're saying but the first set worked fine.  Here's the link:                    http://www.ebay.com/itm/RSI-MFG-Premium-Lower-Parts-Kit-/111991230885?
Link Posted: 5/11/2016 4:53:08 PM EDT
[#5]
Link Posted: 5/11/2016 5:03:51 PM EDT
[#6]
Is the trigger spring installed backward?

Post pics of FCG.
Link Posted: 5/11/2016 5:39:17 PM EDT
[#7]
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Quoted:
On a 80% build, easy enough to break the problems down to a few areas to see what is out of spec.


So the first thing we do is install the hammer and trigger with springs, without the disco all together.  
This allows us to cock the hammer back to make sure that trigger sear is retaining the hammer correctly,
That when the selector is set to safe and the trigger pulled, the hammer is not released from the trigger,
When the selector is set to fire and the the trigger pulled, that the hammer can travel all the way forward without binding on the trigger sear.


Now with the disco now installed, We can take it through its checks.
So trigger untouched, cock the hammer past the disco, and make sure that the free gap between the disco and hammer rear sear a they pass by each other is only .001" to .003".
Next pull the trigger all the way back, and over cock the hammer to the disco sear, and with a slow trigger release, make sure that the disco is releasing the hammer to being with, and when the disco releases the hammer, that the trigger front sear catches the hammer.


So if you do the above check and tell use which one of the above is the problem, then should be a easy fix.
View Quote



I have done all of this 100+ times at least and can find no reason for this fault.  Everything is normal up to the point where the hammer notch is suppose to be engaged by the front of the trigger after the disconnector releases it.   I do think the .001-.003 gap you quote is bigger on mine but not much and I don't see how this gap can cause these symptoms given that the disconnector engages the hammer OK when the trigger is held back.  To me, the biggest mystery is why it works sometimes and not others.  Sometimes it will work repeatedly and then stop working and sometimes it will not work repeatedly and then start working.  I don't understand how the symptoms can come & go so randomly.  
Link Posted: 5/11/2016 5:39:48 PM EDT
[#8]
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Quoted:
Is the trigger spring installed backward?

Post pics of FCG.
View Quote



No, but thanks.
Link Posted: 5/11/2016 6:32:45 PM EDT
[#9]
Link Posted: 5/12/2016 5:24:21 AM EDT
[#10]
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Quoted:
ram1998,  if the free gap is too large/advanced, then the disco will release the hammer before the front of the trigger is in the correct position to catch the hammer reliable each time.  Hence the disco should not let the hammer go until the trigger is dam near all the way back to it forward free rest postion.

The gap is easy to reset, via removing some metal from the front/bottom of the disco where it seats against the top/front of the trigger.   Take your time with removing metal with a couple of dry fitting, until you get the free gap to .001" to .003" (about that of a sheet of paper).

https://www.ar15.com/archive/topic.html?b=3&f=66&t=647630

View Quote



I've thought through the geometry of your suggestion and decided to try it and it seems to have worked.  I removed about .01 from the disconnector and may remove a little more because the gap still could be smaller.  I must say though that .001-.003 is an unrealistic number for stock unmodified parts.  I can see that the smaller the  better but just the difference in size of either the trigger or disconnector is enough to exceed that tolerance and that doesn't take into consideration the centerline distance between the two pin holes or the angle between them or the size of the pins or pin holes.  In the future I will plan on making this mod to everything.  Thanks for your help.  BTW, I'm not getting notified of these responses and I can't find a preference to control it.
Link Posted: 5/12/2016 4:27:03 PM EDT
[#11]
Link Posted: 5/12/2016 4:30:12 PM EDT
[#12]
Link Posted: 5/12/2016 4:36:00 PM EDT
[#13]
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Quoted:


Not really, and if all the parts are in spec, including the lower receiver pin channels, then the Free gap should be .001" to .003".

Now with 80% receivers that the pin channels may be off when drilled, and crapamatic cheap FCG  parts to boot, God only knows what you end up, and most of the time have to time the parts correctly instead (including the free gap).
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Quoted:
Quoted:
I must say though that .001-.003 is an unrealistic number for stock unmodified parts.  


Not really, and if all the parts are in spec, including the lower receiver pin channels, then the Free gap should be .001" to .003".

Now with 80% receivers that the pin channels may be off when drilled, and crapamatic cheap FCG  parts to boot, God only knows what you end up, and most of the time have to time the parts correctly instead (including the free gap).


The overlap of the disconnector is usually much more than 0.001-0.003"...
I've taken a mil-spec hammer before and stoned down the sear engagement lip on the hammer and removed a good 0.020" before I got hammer drop on trigger release.
The AR fire control group is not exactly precision instrumentation, the tolerances are much too open to spec only 0.001-0.003 disconnector overlap.
Link Posted: 5/12/2016 5:54:03 PM EDT
[#14]
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Quoted:


The overlap of the disconnector is usually much more than 0.001-0.003"...
I've taken a mil-spec hammer before and stoned down the sear engagement lip on the hammer and removed a good 0.020" before I got hammer drop on trigger release.
The AR fire control group is not exactly precision instrumentation, the tolerances are much too open to spec only 0.001-0.003 disconnector overlap.
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I must say though that .001-.003 is an unrealistic number for stock unmodified parts.  


Not really, and if all the parts are in spec, including the lower receiver pin channels, then the Free gap should be .001" to .003".

Now with 80% receivers that the pin channels may be off when drilled, and crapamatic cheap FCG  parts to boot, God only knows what you end up, and most of the time have to time the parts correctly instead (including the free gap).


The overlap of the disconnector is usually much more than 0.001-0.003"...
I've taken a mil-spec hammer before and stoned down the sear engagement lip on the hammer and removed a good 0.020" before I got hammer drop on trigger release.
The AR fire control group is not exactly precision instrumentation, the tolerances are much too open to spec only 0.001-0.003 disconnector overlap.



I agree.  I've designed hundreds of such parts and can tell you without hesitation that the exterior dimensions of each part exceed +/- .003"  You can only make something as accurate as the process will allow and everything has a tolerance.  If the parts we're talking about were built accurate enough to guarantee .001-.003 gap every time they would cost $100 each, maybe more.
Link Posted: 5/12/2016 5:57:53 PM EDT
[#15]
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Quoted:
Not sure if its a members only thing, but check in your profile to see if you can turn on notifications.
View Quote



I assumed you'd know since you're the moderator.  I've looked several times for a switch to turn on e-mail notifications and haven't found one.  I also haven't seen anything about becoming a "member".  Am I really the first to ask this?
Link Posted: 5/12/2016 9:50:26 PM EDT
[#16]
Link Posted: 5/13/2016 5:04:45 AM EDT
[#17]
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Quoted:



I assumed you'd know since you're the moderator.  I've looked several times for a switch to turn on e-mail notifications and haven't found one.  I also haven't seen anything about becoming a "member".  Am I really the first to ask this?
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Quoted:
Not sure if its a members only thing, but check in your profile to see if you can turn on notifications.



I assumed you'd know since you're the moderator.  I've looked several times for a switch to turn on e-mail notifications and haven't found one.  I also haven't seen anything about becoming a "member".  Am I really the first to ask this?


You have to subscribe to your own thread to get e-mail notifications.  Kind of silly.  This is the only board I have ever been to that does that.  If you want to pay for a membership, click on the red Online Store tab all the way at the top towards the right.  The subscribe tab is towards the right, at the bottom and the top of your thread.

Also, before I bought a membership in the past, after you subscribed to a thread, you also had to click on the Subscriptions tab, and enable e-mail notifications for each thread.  When my subscription expired, I no longer needed to do that.  I would just subscribe and start getting e-mail notifications.  I don't know if that is something they changed while I had a membership, or if that started because I previously had a membership.
Link Posted: 5/13/2016 2:02:32 PM EDT
[#18]
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Quoted:


Been a mod for so long (over a decade) that I even forget what the non members profile page looks like.

But click on your name up on the left top of the page once you are logged on, click on  changer prefences on the bottom left, and see if you have a line a few items down on the right that is labled "Subscription Default"  If you do, then change it to receiver email when something is posted in one of your subscription (any topic you start, or one that you have posted in).
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Not sure if its a members only thing, but check in your profile to see if you can turn on notifications.



I assumed you'd know since you're the moderator.  I've looked several times for a switch to turn on e-mail notifications and haven't found one.  I also haven't seen anything about becoming a "member".  Am I really the first to ask this?


Been a mod for so long (over a decade) that I even forget what the non members profile page looks like.

But click on your name up on the left top of the page once you are logged on, click on  changer prefences on the bottom left, and see if you have a line a few items down on the right that is labled "Subscription Default"  If you do, then change it to receiver email when something is posted in one of your subscription (any topic you start, or one that you have posted in).



I've done that several times and there's no applicable preference in my profile.  I did the "subscribe" suggested above so maybe that will help.
Link Posted: 5/17/2016 10:46:25 AM EDT
[#19]
You do not repair any hammer parts, you only replace them.

If those don't fix the issue and you've verified the springs are installed correctly, then your 80% lowers are out of spec.

Quite frankly if you have a negligent discharge and they find out you made the lower, you're on all kinds of hooks for liability.
Link Posted: 5/17/2016 10:49:36 AM EDT
[#20]
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Quoted:
You do not repair any hammer parts, you only replace them.

If those don't fix the issue and you've verified the springs are installed correctly, then your 80% lowers are out of spec.

Quite frankly if you have a negligent discharge and they find out you made the lower, you're on all kinds of hooks for liability.
View Quote


The "easy fix" would be a modular trigger, there are plenty of options out there.

Link Posted: 5/17/2016 7:02:53 PM EDT
[#21]
Link Posted: 5/17/2016 7:49:45 PM EDT
[#22]
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Quoted:


Wrong forum to be posting this type of advice in, and would be better advice for the parts swapping only "build it yourself" forum instead.

Hence in this forum, the sound advice given here it how to bring the entire rifle together together as a working/functioning rifle; be it smith'g the parts, including the FCG if needed as well.

Hence the AR-15 with the mass suppliers of parts (some that are total shite), does not often turn out to be as "plug and play" as one would wish, and when you are working with a completed 80% completed receiver, the chances of "plug and play" with parts (even if totaly in spec) in such a receiver a even less of a chance of plug and play as well.
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Quoted:
You do not repair any hammer parts, you only replace them.
.


Wrong forum to be posting this type of advice in, and would be better advice for the parts swapping only "build it yourself" forum instead.

Hence in this forum, the sound advice given here it how to bring the entire rifle together together as a working/functioning rifle; be it smith'g the parts, including the FCG if needed as well.

Hence the AR-15 with the mass suppliers of parts (some that are total shite), does not often turn out to be as "plug and play" as one would wish, and when you are working with a completed 80% completed receiver, the chances of "plug and play" with parts (even if totaly in spec) in such a receiver a even less of a chance of plug and play as well.


It is absolutely the correct advice.  Hammer parts, if found to be defective, are not "tweaked" or "altered."  This is part of official armorer cirriculum per Rock River, Stag, and several other manufacturers.  Certain parts are not smith'd, they are replaced.  But if new hammer/fcg that is verified working in a known working rifle is installed with the same results, and the existing hammer/fcg is installed in another known working receiver, likely the cause is the self-machined lower.
Link Posted: 5/17/2016 8:22:47 PM EDT
[#23]
Link Posted: 5/19/2016 10:42:34 AM EDT
[#24]
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Quoted:
Again, we know that the problem is either the disco is out of time, or the lower receiver is not milled correctly.

The disco is easy to re-time if needed, and as for the if the problem is the lower receiver, don't see the opt wanting to have to throw it away and start again on a new receiver, so smith'g the needed FCG parts to bring all of it into a working rifle is not hard to do.

As for the companies that you names, trust me-they are tweaking/cleaning up FCG parts during their factory builds to get the rifle functioning as well.
View Quote


Personally, I suspect the term "mil-spec" has become corrupted over time.  It's suppose to mean that any mil-spec part will work with any other mil-spec part or parts.  I believe that over the years people have either made physical changes or (more likely) loosened the tolerances to get bigger yields and cheaper parts.  The result is that we have to tweek parts to make them work.  Personally, I don't mind a little tweeking if it's reflected in the price but I do mind being deceived by calling the parts "mil-spec".  I'd love to see the "mil spec" drawings these manufacturers are working from.  If they are anything like the lower receiver drawing that is widely distributed, they leave a LOT to the imagination.
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