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Posted: 4/19/2016 9:28:38 AM EDT
Alright, so you guys were very helpful last time i asked for help so hopefully you all can help me out again. My last post (almost a year ago) I explained how I had just put together my first ar15 build from scratch. I was so proud of myself and couldn't wait to shoot it. I decided to let me SF friend shoot it first when he got back from wherever he was. So one day i got the call that he would be back for literally 48 hours in town, so we immediately went to the range.

The gun went bang, but the bcg didn't cycle at all. the charging handle and bcg were so stuck that i couldn't pull hard enough to free it. Luckily i was with my SF friend who showed me a technique to free the carrier and i believe he called it "mortaring" the rifle. We placed the rifle vertical with my thumb on the charging handle latch then forced it downward onto a hard surface. It worked. At first i was worried about damaging the rifle, but he explained that he has had to do this numerous time in some of the theaters he fights in.

one of you suggested testing the ammo and it was actually slightly oversized. Thats why it was getting stuck.

I haven't shot that rifle since. For some reason this morning I was thinking about it and have a new question before i attempt to fire that ar15 again.

Since the BCG didn't cycle, those rounds fired in the chamber and none of the gasses were able to release through the rear end of the chamber because the bolt carrier didn't move rearward to let air in. Also, the bolt carrier didn't move rearward onto the buffer and spring to alleviate the stresses on the rifle. So where did all of that stress go? Where are some key places that I should inspect on the rifle before I discharge it again. Or am I overthinking this and don't need to worry about it because it happens to service rifles in combat and they just "mortar" the rifle and continue to fight?

Any information helps. Thanks guys!
Link Posted: 4/19/2016 9:32:58 AM EDT
[#1]
Quoted:
Alright, so you guys were very helpful last time i asked for help so hopefully you all can help me out again. My last post (almost a year ago) I explained how I had just put together my first ar15 build from scratch. I was so proud of myself and couldn't wait to shoot it. I decided to let me SF friend shoot it first when he got back from wherever he was. So one day i got the call that he would be back for literally 48 hours in town, so we immediately went to the range.

The gun went bang, but the bcg didn't cycle at all. the charging handle and bcg were so stuck that i couldn't pull hard enough to free it. Luckily i was with my SF friend who showed me a technique to free the carrier and i believe he called it "mortaring" the rifle. We placed the rifle vertical with my thumb on the charging handle latch then forced it downward onto a hard surface. It worked. At first i was worried about damaging the rifle, but he explained that he has had to do this numerous time in some of the theaters he fights in.

one of you suggested testing the ammo and it was actually slightly oversized. Thats why it was getting stuck.

I haven't shot that rifle since. For some reason this morning I was thinking about it and have a new question before i attempt to fire that ar15 again.

Since the BCG didn't cycle, those rounds fired in the chamber and none of the gasses were able to release through the rear end of the chamber because the bolt carrier didn't move rearward to let air in. Also, the bolt carrier didn't move rearward onto the buffer and spring to alleviate the stresses on the rifle. So where did all of that stress go? Where are some key places that I should inspect on the rifle before I discharge it again. Or am I overthinking this and don't need to worry about it because it happens to service rifles in combat and they just "mortar" the rifle and continue to fight?

Any information helps. Thanks guys!
View Quote

Link Posted: 4/19/2016 9:37:25 AM EDT
[#2]
Do you use a chamber brush?  Don't worry about the pressure thing.

And what kind of ammo is it?
Link Posted: 4/19/2016 9:39:07 AM EDT
[#3]
Quoted:
Alright, so you guys were very helpful last time i asked for help so hopefully you all can help me out again. My last post (almost a year ago) I explained how I had just put together my first ar15 build from scratch. I was so proud of myself and couldn't wait to shoot it. I decided to let me SF friend shoot it first when he got back from wherever he was. So one day i got the call that he would be back for literally 48 hours in town, so we immediately went to the range.

The gun went bang, but the bcg didn't cycle at all. the charging handle and bcg were so stuck that i couldn't pull hard enough to free it. Luckily i was with my SF friend who showed me a technique to free the carrier and i believe he called it "mortaring" the rifle. We placed the rifle vertical with my thumb on the charging handle latch then forced it downward onto a hard surface. It worked. At first i was worried about damaging the rifle, but he explained that he has had to do this numerous time in some of the theaters he fights in.

one of you suggested testing the ammo and it was actually slightly oversized. Thats why it was getting stuck.

I haven't shot that rifle since. For some reason this morning I was thinking about it and have a new question before i attempt to fire that ar15 again.

Since the BCG didn't cycle, those rounds fired in the chamber and none of the gasses were able to release through the rear end of the chamber because the bolt carrier didn't move rearward to let air in. Also, the bolt carrier didn't move rearward onto the buffer and spring to alleviate the stresses on the rifle. So where did all of that stress go? Where are some key places that I should inspect on the rifle before I discharge it again. Or am I overthinking this and don't need to worry about it because it happens to service rifles in combat and they just "mortar" the rifle and continue to fight?

Any information helps. Thanks guys!
View Quote



A couple things come to mind.  If the BCG isn't moving at all, you're probably looking at a failure to unlock.  If the ammo was overpressured and didn't want to extract, the BCG would probably have still cycled.  With a failure to unlock, you're looking at too much friction between the locking lugs on the bolt face and the star chamber.  I'd suggest making sure both mating parts are super clean and properly lubed.  Dry-cycle it a hundred times or so to help all the faces break in a little.    Make sure your ammo is good and try again.
Link Posted: 4/19/2016 10:10:41 AM EDT
[#4]
The ammo was reloads and thats all i had with me that day. When we go to shoot, since it is not often, we shoot A LOT of ammunition and reloads are cheaper. I will check the bolt lugs and chamber star when i get home. I am currently at college. I have however dry cycled the weapon numerous times without issue.
Link Posted: 4/19/2016 10:12:45 AM EDT
[#5]
Reloads....yours or?  Try some decent factory ammo after you scub the chamber.
Link Posted: 4/19/2016 10:37:29 AM EDT
[#6]
This rifle has never functioned?  You built it, shot it once and then put it away if I'm reading correctly.

What type of gas block and how is it attached?
Link Posted: 4/19/2016 11:06:33 AM EDT
[#7]
It's your reloads, or the reloads you bought.



Get factory brass ammo.
Link Posted: 4/19/2016 11:32:17 AM EDT
[#8]
I will try some m855 when i get back home from school. The reloads were bought in bulk at a gun show. The weird part is that they worked in other ar15 pattern rifles that day. My local gunsmith told me that some barrels are built to different tolerances and can be more broken in. The rifle in question failed on the first round and has never successfully fired, completely cycled, and re-fired.

The reason i was hesitant about it being the ammunition at first was because I have bought reloads off of this person numerous times and they worked flawlessly in my other weapons. On top of that, I took that same magazine that was in the failing weapon and stuck it in my Colt6920 and it ran smoothly. So the same batch of ammo worked in the other guns.

I still believe it is the ammo because my gunsmith showed me how the casings were slightly longer than the go-guage should have been and then about 6 months later I bought .308 reloads for an Remington model700 from the same guy and the bolt wouldn't even close on the rounds in my pre-inspection of the gun before i shot it. I then grabbed a box of PMC .308 and it chamber correctly. I have stopped buying ammo from this person obviously.

So I will chalk it up to bad ammo as long as factory ammunition works in the ar15 when i get home. if not ill be posting in here yet again.

As long as you guys don't think i need to worry about extra stress on my barrel or chamber from the bolt lock up and failure to cycle, then I will put this to rest.

Thanks again for the help guys!

Link Posted: 4/19/2016 12:59:41 PM EDT
[#9]
I don't follow your thought process.

This ammunition, regardless of it's source, works in all other AR15 rifles you've tried?  Same lot?

Every experience I've had with reloads in a properly functioning AR, where the case was oversized, has led to the extractor ripping off the rim of the case, and not simply failing to cycle.  

If the force of the extractor on the case was enough to prevent the BCG from moving out of battery, and the round in question was able to be "mortared" free, and the round was not a squib (was it?  Is your barrel clear?  Or is there a bullet still lodged in the bore?) I think you have a gas problem and not an ammunition problem.

I think you should try some factory ammunition in that rifle as a first step to eliminate that variable, but I also think you're going to have a same or similar malfunction with it.
Link Posted: 4/19/2016 1:15:40 PM EDT
[#10]
The rounds were not squibs. they engaged my target downrange and at full force from what i could tell. If the factory ammunition does not work, I will revisit my build and double check the installation of the gas tube.
Link Posted: 4/19/2016 2:45:23 PM EDT
[#11]

Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:




The reason i was hesitant about it being the ammunition at first was because I have bought reloads off of this person numerous times and they worked flawlessly in my other weapons. On top of that, I took that same magazine that was in the failing weapon and stuck it in my Colt6920 and it ran smoothly. So the same batch of ammo worked in the other guns.





Thanks again for the help guys!



View Quote

I have 5 AR's. I reload. I have 1 that this exact thing happens every time I try to use my own reloads, even my fireformed ones.  My other 4 will shoot those exact reloads all day long.

















These reloads, are the from a real company, or is this guy selling his own?






 

Link Posted: 4/22/2016 7:11:13 PM EDT
[#12]
I also recently put together my first ar15. I used black Hills 55gr new production ammo and my rifle did the exact same thing. Only difference was I was able to eject the spent round by pulling back the charging handle with a bit of force.  Did it to the second round I shot as well.  I'm going to go out on limb and say it wasn't the ammo in my situation.

Tag for solution, sorry for slight thread hijack but could be relevant. Is there a break in period? If it's a gas issue, what could I try to adjust?


Thanks
Link Posted: 4/23/2016 1:28:42 PM EDT
[#13]
Your BCG most likely failed to cycle because you have a blockage in, or you improperly assembled, your gas system.  The casing failed to eject because the BCG did not cycle.  You had a harder time than usual ejecting the spent casing, probably because it was out of spec.

I am willing to bet that no matter what ammo you use, the rifle is not going to cycle.  You need to investigate why a sufficient amount of gas is not getting from the barrel to the BCG.
Link Posted: 4/24/2016 8:32:07 AM EDT
[#14]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Your BCG most likely failed to cycle because you have a blockage in, or you improperly assembled, your gas system.  The casing failed to eject because the BCG did not cycle.  You had a harder time than usual ejecting the spent casing, probably because it was out of spec.

I am willing to bet that no matter what ammo you use, the rifle is not going to cycle.  You need to investigate why a sufficient amount of gas is not getting from the barrel to the BCG.
View Quote


This.

I'd check my gas block and ensure it's centered over the barrel gas port.  To the poster two post up, getting no gas at all would lead me straight to gas block alignment.
Link Posted: 4/24/2016 10:53:25 AM EDT
[#15]
Link Posted: 4/26/2016 11:11:40 AM EDT
[#16]
It sounds to me like your ammunition is binding hard in the chamber. Whoever resized the brass didn't bump the shoulder back enough. When the bolt closes the ammo gets pinched in the chamber.

Once that is fixed or you try new manufactured in the USA ammo and it still doesn't cycle my guess is your gas block isn't properly centered with the port in the barrel.
Link Posted: 4/26/2016 2:18:50 PM EDT
[#17]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
It sounds to me like your ammunition is binding hard in the chamber. Whoever resized the brass didn't bump the shoulder back enough. When the bolt closes the ammo gets pinched in the chamber.

Once that is fixed or you try new manufactured in the USA ammo and it still doesn't cycle my guess is your gas block isn't properly centered with the port in the barrel.
View Quote


I have never heard of fired cases getting stuck in the chamber because the brass wasn't sized properly.  If anything, improperly sized brass won't chamber in the first place.
Link Posted: 4/26/2016 2:44:27 PM EDT
[#18]
Sounds like you have multiple issues going on. Your reloads are oversized, possibly exacerbated by a chamber or headspace issue. And, it sounds like you have a gas issue or something else such that the rifle isn't cycling.

You have some serious misconceptions about how firearms function as well. Pressure does not need to be released out of the back of the chamber, the whole point of the firearm design is to contain that pressure such that everything stays together and the bullet is propelled downrange.
Link Posted: 4/26/2016 7:29:11 PM EDT
[#19]
Gas system needs attention!
Link Posted: 4/28/2016 8:30:38 PM EDT
[#20]
Well my issue was I'm an idiot and installed the gas tube upside down in the gas block. I'll get to test Sunday, but don't see any issues moving forward.
Link Posted: 4/29/2016 4:01:08 PM EDT
[#21]
keep us informed as to how it works.



Bruce
Link Posted: 4/29/2016 4:25:46 PM EDT
[#22]

Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


Lets start from the top.



Bolt locked up, the primer is ignited, and as the ammo is firing forming to the chamber walls, the case will expand to seal off the chamber via the case.  During the firing forming, some of the pressure is lost out of the back of the chamber.



So if the ammo is over sized, then as the round is first being loaded into the chamber, often the shoulder of the case will seal off to the shoulder of the chamber (wedged in as the bolt is locking up), and when the round is ignited, less pressure loss at fire forming to the chamber, more pressure down the barrel, and this cause too high of working pressure of the round itself (both over all, and gas pressure at the gas port).  With ammo that is loaded to normal working pressure (just the case over sized, the pressure is not so high that you have to worry (less then a proof load), but still enough to cause short stroking instead.





Now since your bolt did not unlock at all, then you have other problems going on instead.



The first may be that  the chamber was not scrubbed clean to begin with (chamber brush and CLP by hand), the head spacing it too short between the bolt and chamber, or the chamber has nasty reamer chatter instead.  These will cause problems with the bolt/extractor being able to pull the spend case when the resdual pressure in the bore is around 20K PSI at unlock.



Or, could be that you have a leakage/blockage in the gas system, and no allowing enough gas pressure to the B/C gas chamber to unlock the bolt in the first place.





So step one, clean the chamber with a chamber brush and CLP by hand, and once clean, take a good look at the chamber to check the chamber wall conditions (should be smooth as a mirror).  



Next is to check the head spacing with a head space gauge.  



From here, start checking the gas system for leaks.  On this, easy enough to put CLP between the gas block front and back seam to the barrel,  CLP between the gas tube to block, then using a piece of tubing on the end of the gas block in the receiver, 100psi of compressed air down the gas tube to see if the block to barrel/gas tube to block has a leak.   On the B/C, CLP around the base of the key to top of carrier, then hold the bolt inward as you push 100psi of compressed air through the front of the key.  On all three seams, you should not have gas leaks, and even through the air pressure will flow through the barrel gas port and into the barrel bore, the restriction of the barrel gas port is enough to check the gas block for it leaks.



Also, with the bolt off the carrier, use the carrier with key dry fitted in the upper receiver.  This will tell you if the gas tube is correctly aligned with the key, and if the key base is too wide for the upper receiver slot (carrier should not bind in the upper receiver).
View Quote
Lot's of good information.  I would also add, make sure the gas tube has a belled area that is engaging inside the carrier key and limiting gas leakage.



 
Link Posted: 4/29/2016 5:44:18 PM EDT
[#23]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Well my issue was I'm an idiot and installed the gas tube upside down in the gas block. I'll get to test Sunday, but don't see any issues moving forward.
View Quote


How?  Is yours not doglegged?
Link Posted: 5/1/2016 4:46:51 PM EDT
[#24]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


How?  Is yours not doglegged?
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
Well my issue was I'm an idiot and installed the gas tube upside down in the gas block. I'll get to test Sunday, but don't see any issues moving forward.


How?  Is yours not doglegged?

No it definitely is, and it seemed right. Seems right now too lol. Harder going in this time but it's all put back together and may get to test this afternoon still.
Link Posted: 5/1/2016 10:32:26 PM EDT
[#25]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Well my issue was I'm an idiot and installed the gas tube upside down in the gas block. I'll get to test Sunday, but don't see any issues moving forward.
View Quote


Hey, you are not the only one to do this.  Thankfully, I noticed it was not smooth from the start and so as I went through each part of the bolt cycle I found it.  
I chalked it up to fatigue and distraction but it points out to me why we double and triple check each step.
R
Link Posted: 5/6/2016 9:49:23 AM EDT
[#26]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


I have never heard of fired cases getting stuck in the chamber because the brass wasn't sized properly.  If anything, improperly sized brass won't chamber in the first place.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
It sounds to me like your ammunition is binding hard in the chamber. Whoever resized the brass didn't bump the shoulder back enough. When the bolt closes the ammo gets pinched in the chamber.

Once that is fixed or you try new manufactured in the USA ammo and it still doesn't cycle my guess is your gas block isn't properly centered with the port in the barrel.


I have never heard of fired cases getting stuck in the chamber because the brass wasn't sized properly.  If anything, improperly sized brass won't chamber in the first place.


It can definitely happen.  If the case mouth was crimped too hard, the case shoulders can bulge out and jam in the chamber.  

Go ahead and ask me how I know this.....    

Been reloading for about 38 years now....  And, we ALL learn best from making our own mistakes!    

In this case, it sounds like the gas tube was the problem.  Bet OP won't forget THAT lesson!  
Link Posted: 5/6/2016 10:03:17 AM EDT
[#27]
Actually, the gas tube problem was found by the other poster, NOT the OP.  So, there are two situations being discussed here in this one thread.  

I still think the OP has a gas problem as well.  Cases that have bulged shoulders usually don't allow the bolt to close.  

OP, try this if you have an air compressor.  Take the BCG group out of the upper.  Seal up the flash hider with tape, and the chamber with a finger.  Blow compressed air into the barrel, and check to see if air is coming out of the gas tube right above the chamber.  (Might need a third hand for this...)  

If there is no air at all coming out of the gas tube, you KNOW you have a gas issue.  

If only a little air comes out, you MIGHT still have a gas issue.  

If lots of air comes through the gas tube, we'll have to assume the gas tube is installed OK.
Link Posted: 5/6/2016 1:14:22 PM EDT
[#28]
A new rifle will always have a few rough spots and parts that are not real slick . Very possible with a factory rifle or a build to have a bit of dirt or grit on some parts . Also possible for a new rifle to not be completely lubricated .

Some rifles will work fine from the get go , some rifles that turn out completely fine run a little fussy at the start for a combination of reasons .

My go to has always been - clean the daylights out of it , lube the heck out of it and start with good full power factory ammo and don't get crazy if it isn't 100% until you get a couple hundred down the pipe .

Don't worry about the gun handling pressure when it doesn't function . Our feeble minds perceive a semi automatic rifle functioning in one action before we can blink but if you were to look at a high speed motion picture of a AR15 the hammer falls , primer fires , powder starts to burn and a good time later the bullet starts to move as the charge is still burning . Max pressure I believe will be just as the bullet starts to move and drops pretty fast as the bullet moves down the barrel . after the bullet passes the gas port some of the pressure in the bore bleeds off into the gas tube . As the bullet pops out of the barrel the pressure drops fairly fast .Because of the inertia of the bolt and carrier I don't think any of those parts really start to move until the bullet is gone . Pressure is dropping fast , mostly out the barrel at about the same time the action starts to function.


Another thing to remember is the AR action is designed as a full auto and for full auto stresses . when it has the semi trigger and is fired one shot at a time it is really loafing

In short , clean your gun well including the chamber , inspect the chamber for obvious signs of burs or crud , dump some oil on it and head to the range with some factory ball ammo and shoot the heck out of it
Link Posted: 5/8/2016 9:04:27 AM EDT
[#29]
Hey not to re-highjack the thread but I did have a chance to fire it before the movie last night and all went well. Thanks for the help, op I hope you figured out your issue as well!
Link Posted: 5/8/2016 9:59:57 AM EDT
[#30]
The gun went bang, but the bcg didn't cycle at all. the charging handle and bcg were so stuck that i couldn't pull hard enough to free it. Luckily i was with my SF friend who showed me a technique to free the carrier and i believe he called it "mortaring" the rifle. We placed the rifle vertical with my thumb on the charging handle latch then forced it downward onto a hard surface. It worked. At first i was worried about damaging the rifle, but he explained that he has had to do this numerous time in some of the theaters he fights in.

one of you suggested testing the ammo and it was actually slightly oversized. Thats why it was getting stuck.
View Quote


Gas has nothing to do with cycling the action by hand.

Cases shot in .mil/NATO chambers and sized using a full-length die are going to be fat.  Try shoving those into a tight or match commercial chamber and they'll stick hard.

Measure your unfired ammo cases using calipers.  Check them against either of these generic drawings:




Measure a case fired from the chamber of the rifle that sticks and compare.

You can fix it with a small base die.

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