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Page AR-15 » Troubleshooting
AR Sponsor: bravocompany
Posted: 12/23/2015 3:41:44 PM EDT
Hi folks,

I finally got around to assembling my AR.  After 2 sessions at the range, I think I've identified the issue, but I'm not sure if there's any adjustment I can make to solve it.  Basically, I'm getting a lot of double feeds likely because my BCM Gunfighter charging handle is rubbing significantly on the top of my Magpul UBR stock.  This means that I get a FTF when I use the bolt release on a new magazine.  After clearing that issue, I have to manually charge the handle forward in order to get everything functioning properly.  After that, it's flawless.  If I don't charge the handle forward manually, I'll get back to back double feeds.

If I just manually charge the handle forwards from the beginning, everything is gravy.

Any ideas/suggestions?

Relevant build specifics:

--Battle Arms Development forged lower, lightweight upper
--Magpul UBR stock
--Magpul PMAG 10 rd (the only mags used in this case)
--BCM ambidextrous charging handle
--Syrac Ordnance gas block (16" barrel, rifle length gas tube)
--H2 buffer assembly
--carbine length buffer spring
Link Posted: 12/23/2015 4:03:05 PM EDT
[#1]
Are you saying... you can pull the charging handle fully to the rear THEN you are hitting the bolt release to chamber a round WITHOUT manually pushing the charging handle forward AND that is when you get a malfunction?
Link Posted: 12/23/2015 4:19:33 PM EDT
[#2]
Yes, I believe so.  About halfway through my 2nd visit to the range (~80-100 rounds), I stopped using the bolt release and everything was fine.

Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Are you saying... you can pull the charging handle fully to the rear THEN you are hitting the bolt release to chamber a round WITHOUT manually pushing the charging handle forward AND that is when you get a malfunction?
View Quote

Link Posted: 12/23/2015 5:01:48 PM EDT
[#3]
Is there anyway you can post a video of what you're doing?

The way you're describing things doesn't sound right
Link Posted: 12/23/2015 5:09:25 PM EDT
[#4]
It sounds like you are new to ARs.

The correct way to charge an AR starting with a loaded magazine.

Insert loaded magazine.

Pull charging handle fully to the rear

From the charging handle held fully to rear... release charging handle.

(The bolt will pull the charging handle fully forward chambering a round and locking the charging handle fully forward.)


NEXT:


If you are going to chamber a round by locking the bolt to the rear THEN inserting a loaded magazine in place BY depressing the bolt release...

Pull the bolt fully to the rear, depress the bottom of the bolt stop and slowly ease the bolt forward until the bolt has been captured by the bolt stop...

THEN push the charging fully forward to lock it forward.

Insert the magazine locking it in place THEN push the top of the bolt stop in... and the bolt will go forward stripping a round out of the magazine and into the chamber.


Was this helpful... or did I not understanding what your failure was?

Link Posted: 12/23/2015 5:13:44 PM EDT
[#5]
I'll try to do that the next time I hit the range, I was solo this past time, so it would've been a little difficult.

Let me try to rephrase it...

When I try to fire for the first time, I open the action on the rifle, insert the mag, then hit the bolt release.  When I use the bolt release and NOT the charging handle, I get an F2F every time.  If I just try to clear the issue with the charging handle, it results in a double feed.  However, if I remove the mag, and re-charge the handle, I can fire the chambered round.  The next time, I try to load the mag and chamber a round, it's the same cycle over again.

What I end up having to do is to always charge the handle manually to get a proper amount of forward motion to chamber the round and position the bolt correctly.  I think there's something about the friction between the charging handle and the top of my stock that doesn't allow the BCG/handle to charge properly.  If I start off a mag by charging the handle forward manually, I'm able to go through the whole mag without issues.

Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Is there anyway you can post a video of what you're doing?

The way you're describing things doesn't sound right
View Quote

Link Posted: 12/23/2015 5:21:15 PM EDT
[#6]
Correct, this is my first build, but I had two experienced friends help me with it.

Sounds like I may be going out of order on the first part of your explanation, so I'll try that next time.  Thanks for clarifying.

The 2nd way results in a F2F as explained above.  There just isn't enough forward momentum by releasing the bolt catch or something.

Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
It sounds like you are new to ARs.

The correct way to charge an AR starting with a loaded magazine.

Insert loaded magazine.

Pull charging handle fully to the rear

From the charging handle held fully to rear... release charging handle.

(The bolt will pull the charging handle fully forward chambering a round and locking the charging handle fully forward.)


NEXT:


If you are going to chamber a round by locking the bolt to the rear THEN inserting a loaded magazine in place BY depressing the bolt release...

Pull the bolt fully to the rear, depress the bottom of the bolt stop and slowly ease the bolt forward until the bolt has been captured by the bolt stop...

THEN push the charging fully forward to lock it forward.

Insert the magazine locking it in place THEN push the top of the bolt stop in... and the bolt will go forward stripping a round out of the magazine and into the chamber.


Was this helpful... or did I not understanding what your failure was?

View Quote

Link Posted: 12/23/2015 5:29:11 PM EDT
[#7]
You make it sound like when you charge the rifle using the bolt stop... you have the charging handle fully to the rear.

That is the only way the charging handle can be a problem related to the Magpul UBR stock.
Link Posted: 12/23/2015 5:45:10 PM EDT
[#8]
Hmm, I can't recall exactly, but it's a very possible error on my part.  

Thanks for the quick responses, and taking the time to sort out this issue (likely user error) for a n00b like me.

Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
You make it sound like when you charge the rifle using the bolt stop... you have the charging handle fully to the rear.

That is the only way the charging handle can be a problem related to the Magpul UBR stock.
View Quote

Link Posted: 12/23/2015 6:15:53 PM EDT
[#9]
Make sure your bolt is locking back with the bolt face on the bolt hold open.  It is possible to have the bolt carrier body locked on the bolt hold open.  If you do the second one above you will have trouble.

Do you understand above?
Link Posted: 12/23/2015 7:30:05 PM EDT
[#10]
Link Posted: 12/23/2015 7:30:52 PM EDT
[#11]
Yes, I think I understand.  Thanks!

Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Make sure your bolt is locking back with the bolt face on the bolt hold open.  It is possible to have the bolt carrier body locked on the bolt hold open.  If you do the second one above you will have trouble.

Do you understand above?
View Quote

Link Posted: 12/23/2015 8:10:45 PM EDT
[#12]
All the parts were clean before assembly (including greasing). And the mags were brand new. Would it likely new mags would have issues?

Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Two ways to charge a round.

Pull the charging handle to lock the bolt on the bolt catch, push the charging handle forward to lock it home, insert a load mag, and hit the bolt catch allow the bolt to run home under full speed.


Or, install a loaded mag, pull the charging handle all the way back, then release the charging handle to allow the bolt to run full speed home, taking the charging handle with it to lock it up a well.

As for quick checks,

Pull the charging handle all way back, and make sure that the face of the bolt stops around 1/8" to 1/4" in front of the back edge of the ejection port window.  If the face of the bolt will not come back far enough of the last inch of CH pull is much harder than the pull from about half way back, then you used the wrong spring or buffer lengths, or you use the wrong (too long) buffer tube end screws, and it now protruding into the back void of the tube.

With the bolt locked back on the catch, work the charging handle back and forth by hand.  The bottom of the handle should not be binding on the top of the butt stock, and the handle should lock into place on the upper receiver without having to be forced to lock up.

Lastly here, shotgun the upper open, stick your finger in the back of the carrier, and work the carrier against the locked charging handle, and upper receiver to make sure that the key or cam pin is not binding against either.  Now pull the charging handle all the way back, and now push the carrier forward with the charging handle in tow.  The carrier should move as smoothly as when the charging handle was locked in place.

As for last  of quick checked, remove the bolt from the carrier and with only the carrier and key, dry fit these into the upper receiver to check for binding and even to confirm that the gas tube is correctly indexed with the carrier key.  On the mag release button, make sure that the threaded tip of the mag catch is flush with the top face of the mag release bottom.


Now for the mag to feed two rounds out at once on a single charge, it's screaming a problem with the mag.  When all else fails on a Mag pull mag, pull the mag apart, and clean all the parts with CLP.  On the follower, check the skirt for plastic over casting that my need to be removed so the mag follower is not binding in the inside of the mag.


And like always, make sure to correctly clean the rifle, including scrubbing the chamber with a chamber brush with CLP by hand, and then make sure that the upper bearing areas have been lubed with CLP (including the parts in side the receiver extension (buffer tube) such as the spring, the buffer and the inside of the tube.
View Quote

Link Posted: 12/23/2015 8:24:02 PM EDT
[#13]
Link Posted: 12/23/2015 8:39:33 PM EDT
[#14]
We mostly oiled just the contact points, but applied some Weapon Shield grease in a syringe to a few select areas...

Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
What Greasing?????
This is a AR platform, not a M-14 or M1 Garand, and no where in any operator service manual does it state to use Grease on the AR rifle!!!!!!

With the exception of the barrel bore itself, where something like a good copper solvent like Sweets will remove the copper build up without the need of a lot scrubbing, the rifle should be cleaned, then lubed with CLP only.
View Quote

Link Posted: 12/23/2015 10:05:03 PM EDT
[#15]
I am having a hard time making heads or tails of what you wrote.
The charging handle could be dragging on your stock but you said when you load from a closed bolt you didn't  have any problems when using the charging handle.

When you load from an open bolt you have a malfunction.

The charging handle should be locked in place when you use the bolt release. You also need to be sure the bolt is locked fully open. It is very easy to lock the bolt back too early.
Link Posted: 12/23/2015 11:42:03 PM EDT
[#16]
When I load from an open bolt, I may not have locked the charging handle forward, so that could've been the cause. I honestly can't remember. However, the bolt is truly locked open when I do that.

Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
I am having a hard time making heads or tails of what you wrote.
The charging handle could be dragging on your stock but you said when you load from a closed bolt you didn't  have any problems when using the charging handle.

When you load from an open bolt you have a malfunction.

The charging handle should be locked in place when you use the bolt release. You also need to be sure the bolt is locked fully open. It is very easy to lock the bolt back too early.
View Quote

Link Posted: 12/24/2015 8:17:46 AM EDT
[#17]
Link Posted: 12/25/2015 11:08:06 PM EDT
[#18]
It could be the mags.  What type did you use?
Link Posted: 1/2/2016 4:54:21 PM EDT
[#19]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
It could be the mags.  What type did you use?
View Quote


Magpul 10 round pmags.
Link Posted: 2/1/2016 1:35:17 PM EDT
[#20]
Hi folks,

Whatever the issue, it seems to have gone away.  There's much less friction between the charging handle and the stock (could have just needed to break-in) and it seems to like Hex Mags better than the P-Mags.  Forgot to add that the Phase5 lever also helped.

Thanks for everyone's input and help.

--DT
Link Posted: 2/2/2016 9:56:33 PM EDT
[#21]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Hi folks,

Whatever the issue, it seems to have gone away.  There's much less friction between the charging handle and the stock (could have just needed to break-in) and it seems to like Hex Mags better than the P-Mags.  Forgot to add that the Phase5 lever also helped.

Thanks for everyone's input and help.

--DT
View Quote

I have 2 UBR and have that same issue with the bcm ch and axts raptor. Never had this specific issue though.
Link Posted: 2/2/2016 10:29:57 PM EDT
[#22]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History

I have 2 UBR and have that same issue with the bcm ch and axts raptor. Never had this specific issue though.
View Quote


Sort of glad to hear I'm not the only one.  I wonder if the new UBR that debuted at Shot Show fits better.
Link Posted: 2/4/2016 3:27:32 PM EDT
[#23]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Hi folks,

Whatever the issue, it seems to have gone away.  There's much less friction between the charging handle and the stock (could have just needed to break-in) and it seems to like Hex Mags better than the P-Mags.  Forgot to add that the Phase5 lever also helped.

Thanks for everyone's input and help.

--DT
View Quote


This whole thing is still blowing my mind.  Are you locking the bolt back, leaving the charging handle all the way to the rear, and then pressing the bolt release?  In other words, you lock the bolt, leave the handle fully extended, then let the bolt going home pull the charging handle into the fully retracted position?
Link Posted: 2/4/2016 7:52:20 PM EDT
[#24]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History


This whole thing is still blowing my mind.  Are you locking the bolt back, leaving the charging handle all the way to the rear, and then pressing the bolt release?  In other words, you lock the bolt, leave the handle fully extended, then let the bolt going home pull the charging handle into the fully retracted position?
View Quote


I did not this last time, and honestly can't remember if I did before.  I want to say 'no'.  To that point, it's significantly easier to lock/release the bolt with the Phase 5 lever.  The Magpul lever didn't have the clearance with my receiver for some reason and the stock bolt catch/release wasn't cutting it.  I'm not sure if that made a difference by itself, but I also switched to different mags and gave the BCG and CH a good cleaning and re-lubrication.  It seems like the it likes the Hexmags better than the PMags.  There are many signs of contact and wear on the stock and the CH, but the operation seems to be much smoother than before...maybe a little "break-in" was all that was needed.
Page AR-15 » Troubleshooting
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