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Posted: 12/17/2014 10:15:32 PM EDT
I'm going to try to be as detailed as possible so that hopefully someone with more experience can help me out. I built my first ar and have not been able to get it to function properly yet. First ill give some specs.
Palmetto state lower Cmmg lower parts kit Cmmg bolt/ carrier Yankee hill machine upper 18 inch barrel rifle length gas system Using 10 and 5 round steel c mags Orange follower First the rifle wouldn't cycle at all. It wouldn't eject the fired round either. I took it took a local gun store who said the gas block was leaking and replaced it with a troy gas block. Now the rifle fires one round ejects it, takes up the next round fires and ejects it but fails to pick up another round. So I'm left going boom,boom,click then cycling manually then boom, boom, click. The bolt stays open after I fire the last round but it's catching on the carrier not the bolt face. Meaning if I put in a New mag and hit the release it won't take up the round. I'd have to pull the bolt a little further back and release it to take up the round. Any advice would be great. |
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[#1]
Just wanted to add I've tried about 5 different brands of ammo all 62 or 55 grain.
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[#2]
I'm no expert, but I'd try it with a pmag. I'm guessing your gas system and buffer are fine since it works the first couple times. The magazine raises rounds up from side to side, hitting a different feed ramp each time, so if the magazine is not feeding them correctly it might explain why you can fire two shots each time before it gets off kilter. I wonder if you load three rounds one time, and four the next, if it will fire two before jamming both times or might produce different results? Also, if you put an empty may in and charge it, will this allow you to load a new mag by dropping the bolt release, or still no?
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[#3]
How competent was the smith that looked at your gas block? What kind of ammo are you using?
Next thing I would do is scrub and clean the chamber really well. Then lube the crap out of the BCG and manually hand cycle the action about 100 times. Then get some factory brass cased 556 rounds and try again. Load the mag with one round only and make sure it locks back every time. Then try two, then three etc. |
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[#4]
I'll echo the gas block , simply because removing and replacing one for another got it cycling. Check correct gas port diameter in both barrel and both gas blocks and alignment -should be around 7mm from shoulder . look for loctite as sometimes the gas blocks come up way oversize ( as much as 0.005" in old money) and this stuff is used as a gap fill -NONE should be anywhere the gas port if relying on srews to fix the gas block .Check for unrestricted gas flow BEFORE fitting tube .
If this is all fine in all cases then mags could be the problem . Use the heavy H&K stainless steel developed for the SA80 , no more bad feeds from that notorious jammer , assuming of course you have the latest ramp profile extension. Run everything in as your barrel manufacturer recommends. |
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[#5]
I'm fairly confident the new gas block is installed correctly. The gunsmith said he would dimple the barrel 180 degrees from the gas port to align the rear set screw perfectly. I'll have to try and swap mags with a buddy. Maybe I'll borrow his whole lower too. I'll go out on Saturday and try that. I've had the bolt pretty well lubed and checked it in another rifle with 120 rounds cycling flawlessly. Thanks for the input.
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[#6]
Also as for the bolt catch. After firing the last round the bolt locks open but on the carrier not the bolt face. If I put a New mag in and just release it the bolt will slide right over the round but if I pull it back a little more so the bolt catch is on the bolt face then it will take up the round. I've never needed to use the forward assist yet. It either takes the round in or misses it completely.
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[#7]
OP,
Is your stock a rifle or carbine stock? Have you checked your spring and buffer for correct length? It's a quick check. I had a carbine that I had bought the lower with the extension and buffer in place. It would occasionally act like it was undergassed. When I pulled the buffer and spring, lo and behold, there was another buffer backwards on the rear of the spring. That extra "spacer" effect was enough to cause a problem. Once I removed it, everything was fine. I don't propose you have the same problem, but point out that springs and buffers can cause what you are describing. |
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[#8]
The rifle has a carbine 6 position tube/buffer/spring from one place though I can't remember the name. Do you have any info on how long the buffer should be? This does sound like it could be my problem because the last 1/4 inch or so when charging is more stiff like I'm squishing the rubber on the buffer to get it to go back
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[#9]
Carbine springs are 10.5" . Rifle springs are 12.75".
Your spring should be close to 10.5" Standard Carbine buffers are 3 1/4 " long and weigh 3.0 oz. Standard Rifle buffers are 5.9" long and weigh 5.2 oz. You should always use a carbine spring with a carbine buffer. When you pull your charging handle all the way back the bolt should retract all the way to just behind the rear of the ejection port. There should not be any binding sensation like you describe. If it is binding it could be a buffer/spring problem or possibly the charging handle meeting resistance at the end of its path. Check that the charging handle is smooth through its entire range. If everything above checks out OK, go back over the gas system and make sure the gas block is tight and in place and visually inspect that the gas tube is aligned and centered in the receiver and not off to one side or another. Then check the gas key on the bolt carrier for being tight and not leaking. Use your hex key and make sure the cap nuts on the gas block are tight. Then put some CLP around the gas key and blow in the tube and see if there are bubbles indicating a leak. Problems like this are a challenge. Good Luck |
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[#10]
Quoted:
Carbine springs are 10.5" . Rifle springs are 12.75". Your spring should be close to 10.5" Standard Carbine buffers are 3 1/4 " long and weigh 3.0 oz. Standard Rifle buffers are 5.9" long and weigh 5.2 oz. You should always use a carbine spring with a carbine buffer. When you pull your charging handle all the way back the bolt should retract all the way to just behind the rear of the ejection port. There should not be any binding sensation like you describe. If it is binding it could be a buffer/spring problem or possibly the charging handle meeting resistance at the end of its path. Check that the charging handle is smooth through its entire range. If everything above checks out OK, go back over the gas system and make sure the gas block is tight and in place and visually inspect that the gas tube is aligned and centered in the receiver and not off to one side or another. Then check the gas key on the bolt carrier for being tight and not leaking. Use your hex key and make sure the cap nuts on the gas block are tight. Then put some CLP around the gas key and blow in the tube and see if there are bubbles indicating a leak. Problems like this are a challenge. Good Luck View Quote Front face of the bolt should stop 1/8" to 1/4" in front of the back ejection port window, and not retract behind it with a full charging handle pull. If the bolt face is retracting behind the back of port (just by a hair), then chances are the spent cases will hit the back of the ejection port window, and can cause ejection problems with the spent case kicked back into the action to cause a stove pipe. That hair turn into even more behind the window when the buffer bumper compresses slightly on back of stoke compression stop. If the bolt face retracts farther back past the ejection port window (buffer just wrong), then now you are chancing that the back of the carrier key will slam off the back of the lower receiver on the back of the stroke (the part where the tube threads into) and you are going to end up with a cracked receiver instead, |
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[#11]
Quoted:
Front face of the bolt should stop 1/8" to 1/4" in front of the back ejection port window, and not retract behind it with a full charging handle pull. If the bolt face is retracting behind the back of port (just by a hair), then chances are the spent cases will hit the back of the ejection port window, and can cause ejection problems with the spent case kicked back into the action to cause a stove pipe. That hair turn into even more behind the window when the buffer bumper compresses slightly on back of stoke compression stop. If the bolt face retracts farther back past the ejection port window (buffer just wrong), then now you are chancing that the back of the carrier key will slam off the back of the lower receiver on the back of the stroke (the part where the tube threads into) and you are going to end up with a cracked receiver instead, View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
Quoted:
Carbine springs are 10.5" . Rifle springs are 12.75". Your spring should be close to 10.5" Standard Carbine buffers are 3 1/4 " long and weigh 3.0 oz. Standard Rifle buffers are 5.9" long and weigh 5.2 oz. You should always use a carbine spring with a carbine buffer. When you pull your charging handle all the way back the bolt should retract all the way to just behind the rear of the ejection port. There should not be any binding sensation like you describe. If it is binding it could be a buffer/spring problem or possibly the charging handle meeting resistance at the end of its path. Check that the charging handle is smooth through its entire range. If everything above checks out OK, go back over the gas system and make sure the gas block is tight and in place and visually inspect that the gas tube is aligned and centered in the receiver and not off to one side or another. Then check the gas key on the bolt carrier for being tight and not leaking. Use your hex key and make sure the cap nuts on the gas block are tight. Then put some CLP around the gas key and blow in the tube and see if there are bubbles indicating a leak. Problems like this are a challenge. Good Luck Front face of the bolt should stop 1/8" to 1/4" in front of the back ejection port window, and not retract behind it with a full charging handle pull. If the bolt face is retracting behind the back of port (just by a hair), then chances are the spent cases will hit the back of the ejection port window, and can cause ejection problems with the spent case kicked back into the action to cause a stove pipe. That hair turn into even more behind the window when the buffer bumper compresses slightly on back of stoke compression stop. If the bolt face retracts farther back past the ejection port window (buffer just wrong), then now you are chancing that the back of the carrier key will slam off the back of the lower receiver on the back of the stroke (the part where the tube threads into) and you are going to end up with a cracked receiver instead, Dano, Can you go into more detail? I just checked the builds on hand and both have the bolt just slightly behind the rear port opening with full retraction of charging handle. They are built with standard buffers, springs and extension tubes and work fine, both eject to the right and behind . Zero malfunctions and the deflector shows appropriate brass marks each time. What do you look for when you evaluate this paradox? Thanks, Rick OP, You still have the same issues to deal with so this conversation should not immediately affect your problem solving. Keep us updated. R |
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[#12]
Rick_Lind, take a rig, pull the buffer and spring, close the upper, then pull back on the charging handle slowly until you have the B/C all the way back, hence back of the carrier key against the lower receiver threaded section for the gas tube.
Note to get the B/C back forward, just tap the muzzle off carpet ground to walk it back foward so you can shotgun the upper back open to reinstall the spring/buffer. Now note if the B/C every goes back this far during a normal stroke, the key will be crashing into the lower receiver to crack to crack the lower receiver. Next take your buffer and drop it bumper side on a hard table or hard ground by about 3' up, and notice that the buffer does bounce back off (normal buffer compressing). Now by seeing just how shallow that the B/C retracting back behind the ejection port window back edge, and then throw in buffer bumper compression, start to realize just how much you are flirting with disaster by having the bolt face retract back past the back of the ejection port edge. Next, although the spent case is starting to pivot off the bolt as the bolt is about half way back, it's during the back of stoke end stall that the spent case really fully pivots off the bolt face (if the buffer is causing the B/C to rear stall correctly, and where you get the around 5:00 ejection path from). If the face of the bolt is behind the back of ejection port window, then instead of the spent case cleanly pivoted off the bolt face, the spent case tags the rear edge of the ejection port window instead. On slight tags, may be fine, but as the buffer begins to wear and get softer/has more compression/shoot ammo that cycles the B/C harder, this can be the difference of the spent case hitting the back of ejection port window hard enough to stove pipe jam the spent case right back into the action. As for why some new rifles have the problem with the face of the bolt retracting back past the ejection port back window, something is wrong with the tolerance stacking on the rifle to cause this problem. The quick band-add, pull the buffer and spring, and start dropping quarters down the tube to shim the tube void shorter so the face of the bolt does stop correctly in front of back edge of ejection port window. The correct solution, pull the receiver extension, and start facing the front end instead to get the needed correct buffer depth, while at the same time the tube correctly indexing for the stock/ end of the tube just kissing the center post of the buffer retaining pin. |
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[#13]
Thanks Dano,
I ran the checks you suggested and I get it. I will change my work flow to include BCG/Receiver timing. I'm pretty sure I will not be grinding down a bunch of receiver extension tubes to fit but found some nice delrin spacers in the interim. Also , figured out that I can manually position the BCG against the buffer and see how much space is left before it hits the receiver. Thanks for the tips. To better builds! Rick |
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[#14]
Quoted:
Thanks Dano, I ran the checks you suggested and I get it. I will change my work flow to include BCG/Receiver timing. I'm pretty sure I will not be grinding down a bunch of receiver extension tubes to fit but found some nice delrin spacers in the interim. Also , figured out that I can manually position the BCG against the buffer and see how much space is left before it hits the receiver. Thanks for the tips. To better builds! Rick View Quote As I wrote you in the IM, a great deal of time, the end of the tube needs to be faced back just for the tube to index correctly for the stock, and kiss the center post of the buffer retainer. From there, you just working in .065" facings for each more wind that you want to be able to thread the tube in one more wind, and end back up at the same correct butt stock index/ end of the tube kissing the center post of the buffer retainer. P.S, not grinding needed. Just make a mandrel to chuck up in the lathe that is longer then the stock inner void, use a live end in the tail stock on the weep hole of the back of the receiver extension to hold the tube tight to the mandrel, and facing the bottom end of the tube bottom only takes a few seconds if you did the math before hand. If the top end of the end of tube needs to be faces back too (need to wind the tube in more that one wind), then that is mill work instead; but just as quick. Once done, a touch of aluminum black, and not one is the wiser that any machine was down to begin with. |
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[#15]
op i dont know where in ny you are but i dont live far from scranton pa. ive built at least 15 ars and have tons of parts and a bit of experience troubleshooting issues. if you want to bring it here im happy to get it worked out for you and im a member of a private gun club thats 5 min from my house. im me if your interested, im sure i can make it run
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[#16]
So I took everything back apart and compared it to a friend's almost identical build that works perfectly and his buffer tube was slightly longer and the spring was longer but had only 37 coils mine was shorter and had 40 coils. So I got the same ati buffer/tube/spring package he used and I'm still having the same issue. I'm going to remove the gas block again and check the gas port now.
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[#18]
Can you try a few rounds using your buddie's buffer, tube and spring installed on your rifle?
That would eliminate those factors so you can concentrate on any magazine or gas control issues. |
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[#19]
I'm really running out of things to check. We're running the same psa lowers with the same ati tube and buffer and spring now. I took the gas block back off and from the look of the build up on the barrel I'd say it was lined up. I measured the gas port and it measured 0.093 I checked the gas block to see if it was leaking at the tube it was a little not much. Still I swapped in a stainless gas tube in place of the black one I was using. Dont think it'll make a difference.
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[#20]
For process of elimination, since you and your buddy have similar rifles, can you go to the range together? If so, then try your upper on his lower and vise versa. Then try swapping bolt carrier assemblies only, and then try swapping just the bolts only. It could be something as simple as machining tolerances being off just enough on several pieces, that it will not run, this is sometimes referred to as stacking, or it could just be one piece that is machined slightly off like the bolt. By swapping parts side by side, you may be able to eliminate which parts work, and find which one is causing the issue.
CY6 Greg Sullivan "Sully" SLR15 Rifles TheDefensiveEdge.com (763) 712-0123 |
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[#21]
How deep is the bore in your receiver extension? I've had issues with several ati tubes and I'm done with them, like stated above mill work to make them right. I get them elsewhere now and haven't issue since.
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[#22]
Just wanted to say no solution to the issue so far. I've got a rock river a2 kit coming tomorrow.
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[#23]
Rock river a2 kit is awesome and only 60 with shipping but it didn't help any.
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[#24]
Did you try swapping parts side by side with your buddy's rifle for process of elimination? This may be the best way to help narrow down what part or parts work, and what doesn't.
CY6 Greg Sullivan "Sully" SLR15 Rifles TheDefensiveEdge.com (763) 712-0123 |
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[#25]
I will be taking his rifle with me this weekend and I'm going to swap things back and forth until I find what makes mine work or his stop working. I'm really frustrated with this rifle and just want to be done with it. I've had it looked at by 5 gun stores. 2 New buffer and tube assemblies. New gas block. New gas tube. No unusual wear marks anywhere. No off brand parts. I'm beginning to think it may be an issue with the 18" rifle length 1-8 twist .223 wylde barrel I bought. Possibly incorrectly made? Any advice will be considered and appreciated.
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[#26]
Also I picked up a 10 round p-mag that did not make any difference.
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