Okay gents, Ive been preparing to embark on my first "from the ground up" build. The goal, which we are usually all seeking, is to have this be the one rifle to do everything for me. Of course, this is an impossible quest, but such is life. I've composed a parts list with costs and weights in the excel doc linked here: Parts List

So I'm here looking for suggestions, namely in the optics department and ways to decrease weight and cost and increase accuracy.

I've got a couple different barrels I'm looking at and I'm also not set on the optic combo or solution.

I want it to be very low recoil and light weight, super flat shooting and fast. Hence the low mass buffer, bolt, adjustable gas block and semi-compensating muzzle break (Though I don't want a tiger style break due to noise, flash and concussion...)

I'd like to be sub 7 pounds but I don't think that's gonna happen with my needs for higher magnification and accuracy. Though I've been debating going with a SLR with a 12.5 or so inch barrel.

I don't wanna spend an insane amount of money but it is an all-out sort of project.  Not so all out as to buy a Valdada IOR  1-10 for 2700 bucks but enough that I'd consider a more expensive barrel and still haven't ruled out the 2a arms bailos receiver set. (Of course, 2.9 oz for 365 bucks is hard to justify)

A note for optic suggestions is that it had to be illuminated and Mil based.

Heres the best representation of what it should look like thanks to gunstruction.

The goal behind this rifle
A: Self-defense, SHTF, schools and training (Hence the "need" for 1 power or a red dot)
B: To kill Praire Dogs at 300 (I'm figuring half MOA accuracy needed for this and at least 8 power)
C: Hold a 10 inch or better group at 600 (Ill be working up a 77 or 80 grain load for this and I'm comfortable with lower magnification)
D: Spotlighting Coyotes, Rabbits and so on

How about an 18 inch barrel, lightweight receivers, and an ACOG?

Are you opposed to getting a suppressor in addition to having this rifle be a SBR?

As far as 18 and acog I'm thinking no. I don't find the 18 necessary. Just gives me a bit less drop and a bit more weight. I'd also much rather go 1-4 rather then an acog.

A can is absolutely in the future.

An "everything" rifle should have BUIS.

Linky I'd look into this scope. Somewhat illuminated, mil reticle. 9 ounces. Put in a LaRue QD mount and add some BUIS.

You can get a nice 1-8 scope but its going to cost you. If you bump it down to a 1-6 the vortex strike eagle is a nice inexpensive option. Also buy your lower from Rainier Arms you will save about $20

Unless it's 18" of Carbon Fiber? You did say you would consider spending more on a barrel. How does a price range from 900-1000 sound?
https://proofresearch.com/the-products/barrels/ar-carbon-fiber-barrel-calibers-lengths/

I have to ask, though, why do you "require" a scope with mils? Do you have a lot of experience with it, or is it just because that is what all the cool .mil operators are using?
If you aren't already experienced with it, heck even if you are: Answer these questions as quickly as you can: What is the average size of a deer torso? Coyote? Just in case the SHTF how about a human torso or head? If you instinctively answered those questions in inches, you should probably be using MOA. If you can't answer it in centimeters without having to think about it first, especially if you have to do a math conversion from inches, you will have a long learning curve ahead of you trying to use mils. If that deer, coyote or other target measures .5 mils in your reticle how far away is it?

To echo the above post....mildot scopes are for ranging. A long range scope and home defense gun don't really go together. A scope in the 1-6x range will suffice for close quarters and get you out to a reasonable distance but I doubt you are gonna need mildots for anything under 300-400 yards...

You're basically building a Reece or SPR build...

The theory is that there's no way I'm gonna break an an optic and a red dot at the same time. I also won't be running a qd mount and the rail where the rear buis will go is going to be taken by a Jp offset mount for a mini red dot.

I'm actually running a 1-4 pst on my current rifle and one of the principal goals on this gun is p-dogs at 300. 4 powers is challenging hence my desire for more magnification.

Yeaaaa, I looked a proof and decided that wasn't a great solution, seems that they're not the most consistent accuracy wise and that is a bit beyond what I'm willing to spend. I'd also still go 16 inches over 16.

I do have a lot of experience with mils as that's what I learned on and my 3 other rifles are based in. I'm less concerned about ranging and more about having constancy across systems. As a side note you know you can use inches with a mil system right? On another note I just range everything anymore. And on a final note an 18 inch coyote taking up .5 mils is 1000 yards.

You are absolutely right... Hence my difficulty but I do shoot out to 600 with my ar now and have killed praire dogs at upwards of 250 with it. But it's rocking a 1-4 and that ain't enough glass to bust one when they just have their head over the bearm. Hence my desire for my magnification. My up close solution is currently and offset red dot. I figure 3 gun guys will have some options on that and it will be plenty fast for up close.

Yep, I'd call it a cross between a Reece and SPR with a bit of ultralight added in.

Weaver Super Slam

I picked one of these up on clearance. Have it mounted on my Varminter but I've thought that it would run pretty well on my SPR but I'm pretty happy with my 1.5-6x Kaspa that I have on that.

That's in the ballpark of the kind of optics thinking about. But the vortex is 4 ounces lighter and I've had great experiences with the pst line.

Ahhh yes. The "one rifle" concept.

When I first started on that road, I was convinced that there was such a thing. But as soon as I was done, depression hit me hard!

I've figured that was just me being a "enjoy the journey not the destination" kind of guy.

Truth is I was simply not satisfied. What about house clearing? What about extremely long distances? What about urban unrest? What about competition? What about different classes of competition? What about a truck gun? What about that one gun I'm supposed to keep buried? You know, just in case.

Honestly I really thought I'd own just the one gun. But once you finish, and then shoot it, your outlook on what you can do with it changes. The stigmas surrounding it start to fade. You realize the dangers are not exactly what you thought they were. Now I'm not pretending I know where you come from or how you were raised so I can't assume. You may be scared. Or fucking fearless. I don't know.

Sure everyone has someone they can point back to to say "they told me how it works". That my success or failure was thanks to the info I gleaned off of "insert role model here". But until you test things out for yourself, you can't tell if those people were right or wrong. That's when the real learning begins.

I don't want to overdramatize what I'm trying to say but I'm too lazy to go back and rewrite this. So I'll just give you a short list of criteria you should follow when building a gun.

1. Mags first.
A while back I started a build that had somewhat rare (difficult to get) magazines.
They only had one manufacturer, and they were very expensive. While I was busy trying to acquire the receiver and the chassis, the source for the mags had dried up. That project is now in the parts bin somewhere. Laws aside, availability is key.

2. Caliber choice.
If you don't plan to reload, be sure you can get plenty of ammo for cheap. Don't get a wildcat if you're not willing to reload. Don't get a rediculously expensive cartridge if you don't plan to reload either. If it's going to be a safe queen then choose what you like, you aren't gonna shoot it anyway.

3. Replacement parts.
This will blow your mind.
Everything is a replacement part.
Don't be suprised if that cool hydraulic buffer or trigger set or bolt fail in the middle of using it. Even if you used it just fine yesterday. The handguard, stock, muzzle device, will lose it's cool factor in 4-6 months. That's if you're patient. You'll be chopping barrels and trying to figure out what doodad to affix next. Then get tired and dump that in the bin.

That's all I can think of for now.

check natchez, they have great sale prices. That weaver was about $300 less than any other outlet when I bought it.

Haha, I think you may have the wrong perception of where I'm cooking from, and while this is my first "from the ground up" build, it's not my first build. Nor my first Ar or fighting rifle. I also don't believe this well be the end all rifle for me. Just a solid foundation to my system. I was running two extremes, a 7.5 and a 20. Now I'm looking for a more balanced solution. However I love your  philosophy, would you mind taking a look at my parts list in the link and giving input on that?

Primary Arms has a possibility for what you need - PA 1-8x.  I have the 1-6x version and love it.  My brother has the Vortex Strike Eagle and likes it.

Overall, I did what you're looking at doing but didn't want to spend as much as you say you can.  So, I went with a pencil barrel and did the best I could do to keep the weight down in other areas, like the BCG - I got a lightweight AIM Surplus BCG.  I didn't feel the cost for titanium parts were worth it.  Yet, I got some polymer parts that had a little storage for things.  By the time I was done, my "everything" rifle sacrificed a tad bit of weight for other useful items.

I don't believe in a "one rifle" concept when one of the uses is as important as defense. I optimize to the task that might result in my getting killed and just get another rifle for the rest, that's just me.

This could work with a 1-6 or 1-8 scope though and a light weight 16" barrel that is capable of 1 MOA. I don't see how 1/2 MOA is needed even for a PD at 300.

Milspec everything with a Recon style configuration.  Don't waist money on race gun parts for a fighting rifle, stick with common milspec parts.  You would want a 1/7 rate barrel so you can stabilize the heaviest projectiles in 5.56.  If I had only one option it would be 18" recon setup with milspec lower parts and buffer.  I would use an enhanced coated FC , and BCG.  I would stick with military used BCGs and Colts coated FCs.  Just simply because in a hard situation, the coating buys time between maintenance.  A muzzle device that eliminates flash and assists muzzle rise with suppressor compatibility. I would stick with a A2 compatible suppressor like an NT style.  I would keep a blowout kit in the grip and a set of batteries in the stock and essential small wear parts with a spare bolt, and as much lube as you can stash in it.    1-8x scope.  

I dont see an issue running an offset red dot though and I do have other options for defensive purposes. In addition to that a p-dog looking at you is well under a moa target.

The only race gun parts will be the bolt and buffer. Parts I can easily swap out if unreliable.

I went with Leupold 1.5-5 and 1.75-6 scopes.

[I'm working along a similar concept, but I'm looking for performance per pound rather than pure weight savings.  

I need robustness where I need robust (barrel nut and scope mount, especially).

I went with.  14.5 CHF lightweight barrel from Centurion under a Geissele Mk3.  Not the lightest, but good performance and rock solid.

For glass, I'm looking at a Nightforce 1-4 on the low side, or the Trijicon 1-8 in a Geissele mount on the high side.  Again, there's a weight penalty, but I should be under 9 pounds with a Surefire Scout Ultra and a sling.  Not super light, but it's got performance at or above its weight class.  

Forged receivers, a Geissele Super Tricon and a SOPMOD stock (possibly replaced by a Magpul SL-K depending on how the balance is with the scope mounted.

Specialized rifles are awesome, but when it's time to roll, you can only use one.

There is no such thing as a "do all" rifle. Especially in 5.56. Ever heard the phrase, " jack of all trades, master of none" ?

For me I my go to rifle is purpose built. 10.5" 1-8 wylde  barrel. Standard bcg, Aimpoint comp m2, steiner dbal i2 single spectrum laser, enforce wml, H2 buffer weight, stock trigger. I am not a fan of specialty parts when it comes to the major components, especially for a SHTF rifle.

A rifle built for SHTF or surviving a gunfight is a completly different rifle than a precision rifle.

Set a purpose for your rifle, understand it's capabilities and limitations and build it.

I can't give any recommendations for the perfect rifle. I can give some recommendations for a rifle that could do a lot of things decent but will never be as good as a purpose built rifle.

There is no such thing as a "do all" rifle. Especially in 5.56. Ever heard the phrase, " jack of all trades, master of none" ?

For me I my go to rifle is purpose built. 10.5" 1-8 wylde  barrel. Standard bcg, Aimpoint comp m2, steiner dbal i2 single spectrum laser, enforce wml, H2 buffer weight, stock trigger. I am not a fan of specialty parts when it comes to the major components, especially for a SHTF rifle.

A rifle built for SHTF or surviving a gunfight is a completly different rifle than a precision rifle.

Set a purpose for your rifle, understand it's capabilities and limitations and build it.

I can't give any recommendations for the perfect rifle. I can give some recommendations for a rifle that could do a lot of things decent but will never be as good as a purpose built rifle.

Not trying to pick a fight, but at first you say that no rifle is a do-it-all gun, and then you lay out your ONE gun that you go to.  Specialized or not, if you only have one gun, that's your do-it-all gun.

If you're clearing your home or worried about threats out to 100 meters, an Aimpoint is the absolute best.  HOWEVER, if you need to take low-percentage shots or PID your target before shooting it when it's over 100 meters away, you'll want some sort of magnification (either a variable optic or a magnifier) before you can make the determination if your target is an ACTUAL threat or not (is that a gun in his hand or a cell phone, for example).

A do-it-all gun is fast becoming a reality with modern optics, barrels, etc.  I have a hard use, light weight, CHF barrel that still shoots MOA with good ammo.  That was unheard of 10-20 years ago.  Ammo has come a long way.  Modern 5.56 loads are the biggest reason that 6.8SPC is not going anywhere anymore.  The bullets have gotten much better over the last 10 years.  75 grain Gold Dot will take down hogs, deer, people, etc, no problem, and it has been proven to do so.  

Are specialized guns better for specialized missions?  Absolutely.  If you have the luxury of knowing what your mission will be and know 100% sure that your mission won't encounter any unknown variables, you're a freaking wizard.

One rifle i have that i would not be afraid to shoot in either self defense or s high oower match is my practical rifle.



Its rocking several components thst are chosen based on objective data in regards to reliability, accuracy, and then several others that are personal choice.

A 18 inch gun with a telestock isnt ideal for room clearing, but it is ideal for making the most of m193 and still sending my match loads down the line. This rifle has a match grade chrome lined barrel that beat out both a larue and ballistic advantage barrel in a 10 brand ammo shootout... Yet neither of those other two brands are chrome lined.  

The A5 was proven to be more reliable than either a traditional a2 stock and a carbine h6 buffer.

Everyone will have a different opinion here of course, but if you want to build the build a do all rifle everything will be a compromise.

There are barrels that have been produced in recent years that have high tech features and match grade accuracy... With minimal point of impact shift as it heats up. Real objective data is available on these technologies if your prepared to shell out thr cash and or do your digging.

Is a super barrel in your budget?

If your going to make "the one" then you need to be up to date on the latest testing data and be prepared to spend the money on prosucts which are driven by data and not hype.

Good luck.

Which barrel did you go with?

I greatly prefer 16" barrels to 18", but I understand your motives.

Criterion Hybrid. Its truly a magnificent match grade chrome lined barrel.

But its not the "best" technology as their are several more modern barrel offerings that show tremendous promise. If your interested grab a copy of brian litz modern advancements vol 2.

Nice.  I've read his stuff before, very good stuff.

Criterion is definitely a good barrel.  After some research, I ended up going with a 14.5" Centurion Arms Lightweight (still uses a .75" gas block, but only weights about 20oz or so) CHF barrel.

Its a purpose built rifle for 300 yards and in. That would be my go to rifle for carbine training courses, and SHTF wet dream scenarios. The intended use and what if scenarios will dictate the weapon. For me if it is a SHTF weapon, then that automatically rules out non standard ammo such as 6.5 anything, 6.8, 300 BLK, and the like. I will stick with milsurp ammo. Also, SHTF for me means a survivability scenario and playing the defensive and not offensive. That means I am breaking contact if I can and I want the best rifle to keep me alive in a gunfight under a few hundred yards. Lightweight, true 1x red dot, with backup sights, and standard easily replaceable parts.

So let me rephrase what I said. Do I think there is a "do all gun" that does anything the best? No. Do I think there is a "do all gun" that can do a lot of things to some degree of effectiveness? Yes.

So if you want a "do it all" gun then by all means attempt to build one but I predict that rifle will not excel in any one category.

If I was going to accept the limitations of a "do it all gun" I guess I would build a 16" match barreled ar15. More along the lines of a recce. With a 1-4x scope. I would also understand the limitations of this as a long range gun and as a short range CQB gun.

On the subject of what is a threat and what isn't a threat and needing magnification. If I can tell it is shooting at me then I would consider it a threat and I don't need magnification to PID that. If its not shooting at me and I need magnification to PID then that tells me either its not a threat or its not an active threat and if its far enough away that magnification is needed then I can get a better position or break contact.

In the end. Different strokes for different folks. I like a purpose built, mission driven weapon better than a "do all gun". To each his own.

IMO there is no magic setup for everything you want in your build. You need to determine which of the above is the highest priority and  go from there. I am guessing A. then B etc. Home defense/SHTF you want a 14.5 or 14.0 pinned to 16 barrel. You can move easier indoors, avoid the NFA, and still "have the ability" to hit targets out to 500 yds.

I had a lancer lower laying around and I wanted a 3 gun / home defense/ fighting AR. So the build below happened. I hit in the middle with a 14.0 pinned to 16 barrel to avoid another NFA rifle. Here is the final product without the flashlight mounted. Its heavy front end heavy with the flashlight and suppressor mounted so keep that in mind when you are building it too. Its fun gun to shoot but if I get another suppressor I will go for a YHM Ti one. I have used mostly for 3 gun and its a keeper imo.  Good luck with your endeavor!

Yep. You can't have the best of both worlds. Even the military knows this. Hence, riflemen usually with a 14.5" carbine and 1x optic, SDM with a specialty carbine or rifle with match barrel and magnified optic, sniper, usually with a bolt gun (of a caliber capable of effective long range hits) and magnified optic. All purpose built, all with specific capabilities and limitations that the operator is aware of.

I think the closest rifle to what you want would be a "recce" type. It will somewhat do it all but will not be great in anything.

Something to note: the military is constrained by M855, Mk262, and military spec (TDP) barrels.  

You are not.  That's a lot of room for improvement.

My do-all AR is a 16" light weight with Trig TR24 1-4X. I might switch to a 1-6X at some point in time, but maybe not.

I'd trust my 16" w/1x4 to do just about everything I realistically see my self ever getting involved in.

I've run it inside and outside out to 400 yards at DARC with zero issues. I will admit that with a can on it it's pretty long, but generally it does everything pretty damned well.

Let's face it, Marines were clearing buildings and putting dudes in the dirt in Iraq with 20" A4 rifles w/ACOGs during house-to-house/CQB engagements. While it's less than ideal it's doable. If I have to do it myself, I imagine I'd collapse the stock, crank my 1-4 down to 1X and get to work.

I can easily hit 18" steel out to 400-500 yards on 4X although I can't imagine ever actually needing to do so.

I do have an 18" 6.5G and SBRs, but my 16" always does what I reasonably need it to do.

You forgot the heavy part, unless you are sporting a Ti can then its all gravy

Well... I run a Gemtech HALO... but I have been eyeing the TI version!

I never said they couldn't do those things. I just said they are not as good as other rifles at a lot of things.

Sure, but a do-all rifle can do lot's of things.

I'd prefer my 10.5" inside a building or vehicle and my 18" 6.5G out to 500-1,000 yards.

But if I have to grab one gun and head out the door, not knowing what kinda trouble I may be getting into, I'll grab the 16" w/1-4x.

I think that's the kind of input the OP is looking for.

yeah that is why I told the OP he needs to figure out his priorities. I believe A and B are probably his top ones. He should be able to figure it out from there. I'd still do a 14.5 pinned instead of a 16 because I can tell a difference in the length. However that is just my opinion on the matter.

I just built a 14.5" with an MRO and I gotta say it's a very handy configuration.

Good point

I was never a fan of a single anything, guns, bows, or fishing rods.  Throw in motorcycles and boats.  There's a reason they sell lowers in multi-paks.  Then, there is the ease of swapping out uppers.  

For an actual solution to the SHTF scenario, get a 7.62X39, as the Russians will be on the east coast, and the Chinese will be on the west coast when the American pants go down in a civil war.  They'll bring lots of ammo with them.

My thought is three rifles and three handguns would be a reasonable minimum.  Scary thought.

Then get the Mark AR 3-9x40mm Firedot-G TMR - mil/mil, and only a couple ounces heavier.  Probably the lightest tactical 3-9x on the planet, if your focus is the lightest weight precision build.

Edit:  to the Mark AR 3-9 add a 1.9 ounce Deltapoint Pro on an LT-137 ring half platform to the LT-104 mount.  Maybe 3 ounces more.  Covers everything from point blank out to 700 yards or so.  Both optics motion activated illumination that can be daylight bright if needed.

This is my setup but with the 2 ounce heavier VX-R Patrol. And also as a 45 degree offset, which I eventually preferred, although it added a couple more ounces.  Still lighter than most 1-6x  mounted scopes.

http://i63.tinypic.com/9iw83n.jpg

This is mine, minus BUIS

If its going to be for defense then build it as such, inside 200 yard gun with a quality red dot. Then build whatever "do all"rifle you want.

Optics wise- I'd get a 1-8. Burris and Primary arms come to mind for that. Would negate needing a red dot. Then a good barrel. I'd also go 16". You can shoot to 6-700 yards with the right ammo. Besides that, add a good trigger and an adjustable gas block if that's your thing, and the rest is up to you.