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Posted: 8/22/2016 8:09:11 PM EDT
[#1]
Quoted:
I learned about the Modulus Arms Heavy Duty jig today and I think it's something I could really get into. One question I have though before going any further, are you required to put any kind of serial number or other marking on a lower, or can they be left blank? Does the law differ by state? Sorry if this question has already been asked. It does differ by state. No federal requirement, and the vast majority of states currently don't have any requirement for a serial number, either. |
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Posted: 8/22/2016 9:21:40 PM EDT
[#2]
Required? By who? The hall monitor?
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Posted: 8/22/2016 9:27:19 PM EDT
[#3]
Nope, The Fed's don't require it and the majority of the states at this time don't require it.
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Posted: 8/22/2016 9:32:17 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It does differ by state. No federal requirement, and the vast majority of states currently don't have any requirement for a serial number, either. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I learned about the Modulus Arms Heavy Duty jig today and I think it's something I could really get into. One question I have though before going any further, are you required to put any kind of serial number or other marking on a lower, or can they be left blank? Does the law differ by state? Sorry if this question has already been asked. It does differ by state. No federal requirement, and the vast majority of states currently don't have any requirement for a serial number, either. Thanks. I would like to pass one down to each of my kids someday, and I wasn't sure if it would be better for their sake to have a number on it, or no number. |
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Posted: 8/22/2016 9:45:23 PM EDT
[#5]
Thanks. I would like to pass one down to each of my kids someday, and I wasn't sure if it would be better for their sake to have a number on it, or no number.
My understanding is you can't pass them down, loan them out or let anyone else use them. I was told if you die you can't even will them to your heirs. The lower is to be stripped and turned over to law enforcement to be destroyed. I don't know how they would enforce that though. |
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Posted: 8/22/2016 10:04:39 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Thanks. I would like to pass one down to each of my kids someday, and I wasn't sure if it would be better for their sake to have a number on it, or no number. My understanding is you can't pass them down, loan them out or let anyone else use them. I was told if you die you can't even will them to your heirs. The lower is to be stripped and turned over to law enforcement to be destroyed. I don't know how they would enforce that though. When you say no one else can use them, I'm assuming for instance it would be ok for my wife to shoot while I'm standing there with her; she just can't take one to the range herself? It really limits things. If she used one to defend herself in the home while I was away, I wonder what the ramifications would be. |
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Posted: 8/22/2016 10:16:49 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
When you say no one else can use them, I'm assuming for instance it would be ok for my wife to shoot while I'm standing there with her; she just can't take one to the range herself? It really limits things. If she used one to defend herself in the home while I was away, I wonder what the ramifications would be. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Thanks. I would like to pass one down to each of my kids someday, and I wasn't sure if it would be better for their sake to have a number on it, or no number. My understanding is you can't pass them down, loan them out or let anyone else use them. I was told if you die you can't even will them to your heirs. The lower is to be stripped and turned over to law enforcement to be destroyed. I don't know how they would enforce that though. When you say no one else can use them, I'm assuming for instance it would be ok for my wife to shoot while I'm standing there with her; she just can't take one to the range herself? It really limits things. If she used one to defend herself in the home while I was away, I wonder what the ramifications would be. You're asking the wrong guy. I think that would be a whole new can of worms. |
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Posted: 8/22/2016 10:25:33 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Thanks. I would like to pass one down to each of my kids someday, and I wasn't sure if it would be better for their sake to have a number on it, or no number. My understanding is you can't pass them down, loan them out or let anyone else use them. I was told if you die you can't even will them to your heirs. The lower is to be stripped and turned over to law enforcement to be destroyed. I don't know how they would enforce that though. Your understanding is 100% wrong. You can sell them to anyone who can legally own a firearm. There is no limit per year of how many firearms you can home build from scratch. You can transfer them through a FFL, they annotate it in their books as AR type and NO SN. If you want to put a number on it put your kids name as the model number and their birthday as the SN. My son, who's 2.25, has a lower destined for him just like that. The logo on the magwell is a stylized version of his teddy bear, the model is "his name-15", the SN is his birthday. My name is engraved on as the "maker" as well as the city/state where he was born. Even if he doesn't want it when he is older it means something to me. The only state I know of that is 100% illegal for an individual to build their own firearms is NJ. If a NJ resident does it outside of the state and brings it back in, it's ok though....try and figure that one out. CA makes it tougher, especially with the new laws and their DOJ, but not impossible. |
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Posted: 8/22/2016 10:27:31 PM EDT
[#9]
Homemade lowers CAN be sold and they can be passed down as long as your intent was not to sell them when you made them, if you are finishing them and then selling them the next month, then you will probably get in trouble, if you finish them and then leave them to a child 5 years later, then you will probably not be found guilty of manufacturing guns without a license.
This subject has been discussed to death the last month, you guys need to use google and do some searches and learn to understand what the BATF has to say about the subject. 
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Posted: 8/22/2016 10:51:55 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Homemade lowers CAN be sold and they can be passed down as long as your intent was not to sell them when you made them, if you are finishing them and then selling them the next month, then you will probably get in trouble, if you finish them and then leave them to a child 5 years later, then you will probably not be found guilty of manufacturing guns without a license. This subject has been discussed to death the last month, you guys need to use google and do some searches and learn to understand what the BATF has to say about the subject. And I guess you believe everything you read on Google |
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Posted: 8/22/2016 11:03:38 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: And I guess you believe everything you read on Google Because fuck Google, searching, and the ATF FAQ on this very topic (see the link in the first reply, go to the page and section they state in the post) *hint* click the red text  |
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Posted: 8/22/2016 11:13:57 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: My understanding is you can't pass them down, loan them out or let anyone else use them. I was told if you die you can't even will them to your heirs. The lower is to be stripped and turned over to law enforcement to be destroyed. I don't know how they would enforce that though. This is all 100% false. |
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Posted: 8/22/2016 11:18:08 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: And I guess you believe everything you read on Google Google can take you to the actual laws and regulations, not just what someone says on a forum. And the actual laws and regulations say that you're previous post is 100% incorrect, but that's already been pointed out. |
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Posted: 8/22/2016 11:23:06 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You're asking the wrong guy. I think that would be a whole new can of worms. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: My understanding is you can't pass them down, loan them out or let anyone else use them. I was told if you die you can't even will them to your heirs. The lower is to be stripped and turned over to law enforcement to be destroyed. I don't know how they would enforce that though. When you say no one else can use them, I'm assuming for instance it would be ok for my wife to shoot while I'm standing there with her; she just can't take one to the range herself? It really limits things. If she used one to defend herself in the home while I was away, I wonder what the ramifications would be. You're asking the wrong guy. I think that would be a whole new can of worms. |
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Posted: 8/22/2016 11:28:11 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This is all 100% false. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
My understanding is you can't pass them down, loan them out or let anyone else use them. I was told if you die you can't even will them to your heirs. The lower is to be stripped and turned over to law enforcement to be destroyed. I don't know how they would enforce that though. This is all 100% false. I'm glad to know I was misinformed. I wanted to complete an 80% but decided against it because of what I was told by someone. After following a few links to the FAQ pages at the ATF website I have a better understanding of the issue. Thanks everyone for clearing this up. |
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Posted: 8/23/2016 2:45:20 AM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
And I guess you believe everything you read on Google Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Homemade lowers CAN be sold and they can be passed down as long as your intent was not to sell them when you made them, if you are finishing them and then selling them the next month, then you will probably get in trouble, if you finish them and then leave them to a child 5 years later, then you will probably not be found guilty of manufacturing guns without a license. This subject has been discussed to death the last month, you guys need to use google and do some searches and learn to understand what the BATF has to say about the subject. And I guess you believe everything you read on Google No, I believe everything I read in the paperwork that the BATF sent me when I received my FFL 7 manufacturing license. Now when you use google, it will point you in the direction of the BATF website that is very specific on what can be sold and cannot be sold, so don't try to be a smart ass. |
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Posted: 8/23/2016 7:09:43 AM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
No, I believe everything I read in the paperwork that the BATF sent me when I received my FFL 7 manufacturing license. When you become licensed as a manufacturer, you have already demonstrated intent to sell what you make. If I'm grinding one or two out in my garage for my own use, there is not intent to enter them into commerce, and therefor not subject to the same marking, licensing, and tax requirements. Back to the OP and the original topic. You might want a s/n and other markings in case you ever think you will ever have a shop work on the receiver or complete rifle. Very few will not object to taking in an unmarked piece, most will be unwilling to simply because of not understanding the nuances of law. Even though the law allows a lot of things to be done with an unmarked receiver/rifle, most people don't know and are afraid. Likewise, if you have someone else mark it, do so before you mill the pocket and drill the pin holes - before it actually becomes a firearm. |
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Posted: 8/23/2016 8:20:08 AM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Likewise, if you have someone else mark it, do so before you mill the pocket and drill the pin holes - before it actually becomes a firearm Unless the engraver has a FFL. Yeah pretty much. I've dropped a few off at a local engraver for work. $35 for text or image or location on the lower. Pretty cheap actually. |
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Posted: 8/23/2016 10:46:24 AM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Thanks. I would like to pass one down to each of my kids someday, and I wasn't sure if it would be better for their sake to have a number on it, or no number. My understanding is you can't pass them down, loan them out or let anyone else use them. I was told if you die you can't even will them to your heirs. The lower is to be stripped and turned over to law enforcement to be destroyed. I don't know how they would enforce that though. Common misperception. Nowhere in Federal law does it say any of that. Maybe some blue states have laws that might require that. According to Federal law you can even sell a completed 80% lower, although (and correct me if I'm wrong) I believe it has to have a serial number then, you just can't make one with the INTENT of selling it. So you can't make one with the intent of giving it away, but I don't think that applies years down the road posthumously. Now -- if you're REALLY worried... have your kids, when they are legally old enough to own a long gun in your state complete their own 80% lower(s) and then store them for safekeeping. At the point where you want to give them the rifle you disassemble it, and have them re-assemble all the parts onto their lower. In most states none of the other parts are controlled. At least that's the way it currently is. |
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Posted: 8/23/2016 10:52:37 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Your understanding is 100% wrong. You can sell them to anyone who can legally own a firearm. There is no limit per year of how many firearms you can home build from scratch. You can transfer them through a FFL, they annotate it in their books as AR type and NO SN. If you want to put a number on it put your kids name as the model number and their birthday as the SN. My son, who's 2.25, has a lower destined for him just like that. The logo on the magwell is a stylized version of his teddy bear, the model is "his name-15", the SN is his birthday. My name is engraved on as the "maker" as well as the city/state where he was born. Even if he doesn't want it when he is older it means something to me. The only state I know of that is 100% illegal for an individual to build their own firearms is NJ. If a NJ resident does it outside of the state and brings it back in, it's ok though....try and figure that one out. CA makes it tougher, especially with the new laws and their DOJ, but not impossible. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Thanks. I would like to pass one down to each of my kids someday, and I wasn't sure if it would be better for their sake to have a number on it, or no number. My understanding is you can't pass them down, loan them out or let anyone else use them. I was told if you die you can't even will them to your heirs. The lower is to be stripped and turned over to law enforcement to be destroyed. I don't know how they would enforce that though. Your understanding is 100% wrong. You can sell them to anyone who can legally own a firearm. There is no limit per year of how many firearms you can home build from scratch. You can transfer them through a FFL, they annotate it in their books as AR type and NO SN. If you want to put a number on it put your kids name as the model number and their birthday as the SN. My son, who's 2.25, has a lower destined for him just like that. The logo on the magwell is a stylized version of his teddy bear, the model is "his name-15", the SN is his birthday. My name is engraved on as the "maker" as well as the city/state where he was born. Even if he doesn't want it when he is older it means something to me. The only state I know of that is 100% illegal for an individual to build their own firearms is NJ. If a NJ resident does it outside of the state and brings it back in, it's ok though....try and figure that one out. CA makes it tougher, especially with the new laws and their DOJ, but not impossible. All that is true as far as I know... except you need to stress that an unlicensed person (non FFL07) can't make firearms with the intent to sell. If you make one for your own personal use and then a year later or something decide... Nah... I really want one in OD instead of FDE... you can sell that one and build another if you choose to. I also think you might need to put a serial # on it before you sell it, but I'm not 100% sure about that. Really, as long as you aren't making a habit of doing it, you probably won't draw the ire of BATFE, but I think technically they consider making even one with the intent of selling it to require an FFL07. |
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Posted: 8/23/2016 10:58:25 AM EDT
[#21]
Usually only if you sell it later.
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Posted: 8/23/2016 3:13:05 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
According to Federal law you can even sell a completed 80% lower, although (and correct me if I'm wrong) I believe it has to have a serial number then No serial number is required even then, for a homebuilt, at least on the federal level. Serials were not required at all until the 1968 GCA became law, and that only applies to FFL manufacturers and importers. There are still millions of firearms out there with no serial numbers, that came that way from the factory. |
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Posted: 8/23/2016 3:29:23 PM EDT
[#23]
If I manufacture a gun for sale, then I have to mark it with a serial number, if I was not an FFL I could finish an 80% and not be required to put a serial number on it and I could gift it or sell it at a later date, as long as I did not manufacture it with the INTENT to sell it. If you finish an 80% and then sell it tomorrow you are probably going to be found to be manufacturing with the intent to sell, if you complete it today and don't sell it or give it away for a couple of years, then you will normally be good to go, even without a serial number. That is at the Federal Level, your state or county laws may be different.
But again at a Federal level as long as you are not showing intent to manufacture for sale, then you don't need a serial number. |
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Posted: 8/23/2016 7:36:35 PM EDT
[#24]
Serial number is still a good idea though... in case it ever gets lost or stolen at least you can prove it was yours.
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Posted: 8/23/2016 7:39:03 PM EDT
[#25]
This is a tech forum. If you don't KNOW what you're talking about, don't post. Post actual information, not what you heard, or what you think, or whatever. If you're not sure at least preface your comments with "I could be wrong..." or something - Eric802
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Posted: 8/23/2016 11:27:52 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This is a tech forum. If you don't KNOW what you're talking about, don't post. Post actual information, not what you heard, or what you think, or whatever. If you're not sure at least preface your comments with "I could be wrong..." or something - Eric802 Eric, Any particular individuals you are directing your comment to? |
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Posted: 8/24/2016 2:08:18 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Eric, Any particular individuals you are directing your comment to? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
This is a tech forum. If you don't KNOW what you're talking about, don't post. Post actual information, not what you heard, or what you think, or whatever. If you're not sure at least preface your comments with "I could be wrong..." or something - Eric802 Eric, Any particular individuals you are directing your comment to? Applies to everyone. I'm assuming the folks who don't know WTF they're talking about know who they are. |
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Posted: 8/24/2016 3:16:29 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Applies to everyone. I'm assuming the folks who don't know WTF they're talking about know who they are. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
This is a tech forum. If you don't KNOW what you're talking about, don't post. Post actual information, not what you heard, or what you think, or whatever. If you're not sure at least preface your comments with "I could be wrong..." or something - Eric802 Eric, Any particular individuals you are directing your comment to? Applies to everyone. I'm assuming the folks who don't know WTF they're talking about know who they are.  I'm not sure that is a very good assumption...
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Posted: 8/24/2016 3:24:18 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Applies to everyone. I'm assuming the folks who don't know WTF they're talking about know who they are. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
This is a tech forum. If you don't KNOW what you're talking about, don't post. Post actual information, not what you heard, or what you think, or whatever. If you're not sure at least preface your comments with "I could be wrong..." or something - Eric802 Eric, Any particular individuals you are directing your comment to? Applies to everyone. I'm assuming the folks who don't know WTF they're talking about know who they are. Wow, very interesting. |
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Posted: 8/24/2016 5:47:44 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
When you say no one else can use them, I'm assuming for instance it would be ok for my wife to shoot while I'm standing there with her; she just can't take one to the range herself? It really limits things. If she used one to defend herself in the home while I was away, I wonder what the ramifications would be. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Thanks. I would like to pass one down to each of my kids someday, and I wasn't sure if it would be better for their sake to have a number on it, or no number. My understanding is you can't pass them down, loan them out or let anyone else use them. I was told if you die you can't even will them to your heirs. The lower is to be stripped and turned over to law enforcement to be destroyed. I don't know how they would enforce that though. When you say no one else can use them, I'm assuming for instance it would be ok for my wife to shoot while I'm standing there with her; she just can't take one to the range herself? It really limits things. If she used one to defend herself in the home while I was away, I wonder what the ramifications would be. ATF rules state: THIS Pretty cut and dry. |
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