I have a Tactical Machining lower and jig, and access to a mill. If I scribe the outline of the fire control group with the top plate, and take measurements as I mill it out, do I really need to keep the top plate on as I mill it? It seems like as long as you know the overall shape of the area you are milling out, and follow up with careful measuring, the top plate does not do much.

With the rear take down pin area already milled, it really does not seem all that complicated to mill out the rest of the FCG pocket. The jig is still critical to drill for the safety and pins.

It seems that by pre drilling a good portion of the material in the FCG, there is not that much more to do to precisely mill out the rest of the pocket.

Any thoughts?

Nothing but trying it out will answer it for sure. I just have to find a time when my friend's schedule and mine converge to do the work. My buddy has a mill, but is a novice with it, so he's not able to offer much insight.

With a mill, the jig is not necessary.  If it the mill has DRO's it's very easy without a jig.  If not even counting turns is easier than using the jig.  

Drilling won't save a ton of time, but the time it can save depends on the mill.  A cheapo harbor freight mill, drilling first could save you half the milling time.  A full sized bridgeport or similar, it might save you a few minutes.  

Get more info on the mill.  We can get you the specs for milling without a jig.

I rough out the fire control pocket with the mill, but to be honest with you the last .09" of the pocket takes me a LOT longer... because at that time I am finishing the pocket to its final dimension, cutting full length with a long end mill (which it does not like, it's making a LOT of scraping noise as it does this) cutting only .001 or so at a time. I want the best possible finish though. I guess having one of those variable flute/helix type end mill would work better on a smaller mill, cutting chatter to a minimum.

A jig is not necessary but it sure make the guesswork a lot easier... I don't have a DRO so I drilled the hole in the wrong place once. I had to bore it out and then epoxy a plug to it but no telling if it will hold up. It doesn't look pretty for sure. The jig will eliminate this kind of mistake. I was doing it on a AR10 type lower, and problem is there's really no blueprint for LR308 lowers out there, and companies making the 80% lowers won't give you a blueprint either (they said it's ITAR regs) but insist that you buy their jig.

Keep in mind BATF has ruled that using equipment that isn't yours to finish a receiver is illegal.

 
Was just about to say this as well......we really should try to get an 80% forum.  Suppressors got a Form 1 sub forum recently, we might be able to swing it with enough votes.  

Can he not give his friend a dollar for rental and be legal?

 
Nope.  Stupid law is stupid.


 

If he were to sell it, and buy it back....maybe good, maybe not good, depends on how good your attorney is if the ATF comes a knockin'?

Nope!

Thanks for the information. I do have a drill press of my own, I'll have to use that instead. Oh well.

Having a 80% lower set up on a CNC where the user just pushes a button is not legal, that was what the other raid was about.

Using someone else's mill is legal, but he can't provide you with help and all sorts of "advise and direction" so that it's almost as though he's the one doing the work, otherwise all the makerspace would have been in trouble already (they don't have any policy against making 80% lowers, just no fully assembled firearms).

If you got a 80% lower, used his mill and you got all the plans and whatnot for producing the lower, then he has no fault.

If he set everything up on a CNC or jig, and all you had to do is push a button, then it's crossing the line.

From the wording, even that is not allowed.  The way it reads, you must own the equipment.

and if you think buying the equipment for a day and then selling it back will get you around it, you're wrong..
bottom line is that whomever owns the tools/equipment being used is seen as the manufacturer.


that's actually worse.... lol



I was talking about this stuff in another thread also, its amazing how many people break the law by following advice they got from the internet or at a gunstore (or incorrectly interpreted from a BATFE letter)

IANAL

Unless you are properly marking all of your completed receivers with your manufacturer name, city/state, model, caliber and serial number then you are either not a manufacturer or you're already breaking the law.

Throughout the letter "engaged in the business of" and "manufacturer" are referenced.  To be a manufacturer, you are on the business of manufacturing and must be licensed to do so.  If you are, you must follow all the requirements for marking firearms as well.  Otherwise, you are making a firearm for personal use and not required to mark you firearms nor follow the other laws around being a "manufacturer".
 

The way every laws are worded, every single person in the country has committed 3 felonies a day. You could probably get in trouble if you lent your mill for someone to make a rocker arm....

Back to the OP's original question, I can see how using the jig on a mill would not be necessary.  That being said, I still used the jig on the mill, if nothing else as a safety precaution.  If you are a good enough machinist and feel you do not need it, then I say go for it.  I am not, and liked the safety net.  One thing I will mention is that prior to machining, I ran a .500 drill bit 90% of the way down to hog out as much material as I could prior to machining.  Is it a requirement?  No, but it sure made things faster.  Now that I have my technique down, I can process a lower in 45 minutes.  Just my $.02, though.

Someone really needs to ask BATFE to clarify a few things...

1. Can I lend any tool to someone if they use it to complete an 80% lower?  Even say, an allen wrench or a cordless drill?  What about a drill bit or an end mill bit?  What about a trim router?  How about a jig?

It seems like a tool is a tool as long as it is not a CNC programmable machine that does the cutting for a person, even if I loan someone a jig they still have to move the drill bits and router themselves.

2. Does it make a difference if when they borrow my tools they take it off-site and I am not even present when they complete their lower?

If "control" of the tools is an issue, if they are off-site and I'm not there I have very little to no control over what they do with them.

3. Does it matter if I get no financial gain by loaning my tools?  What if I am not "in the business" of manufacturing anything, in that I am not making any monetary gain, let alone making a living at it?

It seems like a stretch to claim that someone is "in the business" if no money changes hands and the person lending the tools is only a hobbiest and does not own a professional machine shop.

Bottom line is I believe that BATFE (possibly intentionally in order to scare people) very poorly worded their ruling and by a very conservative reading, it certainly seems to be grossly overreaching, unenforceable and just plain exceptionally draconian.

Liberals have certainly made a big deal out of "oh no someone makes a ghost gun to bypass racist/classist gun control laws and background checks"

Its a BAD idea to ask BATF anything!

They have already CLEARLY stated their position on using tools that do not belong to you.

Well, fine, borrow the tool from your friend and tell him that you only intend to fix your house or make rocker arms with it. That way the original owner of the tool is not knowingly lending the tool to make firearms.

Buy the milling machine for $x and when done sell it back for $x.
ATF opinions a not "laws".
You can't scribe the FCG pocket outline with the jig plate. It won't sit flat on the upper due to the radiused area transitioning to the upright portion that holds the reciever extension. You can, however make your own template that will fit.
If you don't use the top plate you may need to place spacers between the plates at their base to keep the plates from spreading at the tops when you clamp in the vice. A spacer in the trigger area and a spacer against the pistol-grip mount will do the trick.
Dimensions will come out more accurate if you use DROs and/or measure and skip the jig template.

Instructions for doing it with a DRO-equipped mill. Note end mill size differs from TM jig so do your maths.

I watched a video last evening that would be considered in this exact subject matter, it concerns schools that teach gunsmith classes.  They have 10 drill presses set up and each student purchases their own complete kit, then the class discusses theory, methods, manner, history behind the gun, etc.  Once all the book work is done, each student by their selves use one of the 10 drill presses owned by the school to mill their lowers with their own jigs and produce a complete lower receiver.  There is a text warning that they cannot legally help each other or even ask questions while the milling is going on, it goes on to say, that Bob is now going to machine his lower and the rest of the class will be in the classroom studying proper techniques to mill the lower on the press.  Each student follows the same procedure then when all of the lowers are milled, they assemble them in the classroom together, but none are allowed to ask questions of another student or the teacher.

Each student, required to purchase their own kit, each student required to do the milling on their own, without help, each student required to assemble on their own without asking questions, using only the reference materials contained in their kit.

Based on what the instructor said in this video, this has been approved by the BATF and is considered class curriculum to pass their gun smithing class.

I know our local community college also offers several gunsmith classes to help get people back to work after the collapse of our timber industry jobs and they are done in a class room setting and most of the money that backs these classes comes from our state economic development division because in my area thousands of people have lost jobs due to the decline of the ag industry.

BATF have written some rulings in such a manner as they are very difficult to interpret and they leave a lot of gray area that is often times very confusing to many people.

My suggestion to anyone that has questions about this particular subject, call the dept head at the local college that offers gun smith classes, the reason I suggest this, the school has obviously made the inquiries to legalities of teaching people to make guns, as with our local school, they receive grants from the state to offer these classes and I am sure the state has also consulted with the BATF to figure out the legal way to teach these classes, because you can have a class with 25 students and only 10 mills or drill presses available for their use.

I am a FFL/SOT holder and it gets confusing for both my partner and I, who also holds a FFL/SOT, when trying to interpret some of these rulings!

Please don't write another letter to the ATF.  

The letter they already put out is as "clearly stated" as they are going to get.  

You can interpret however helps you sleep best.  If you don't borrow a drill bit or ask for machining (or legal) advice in an online forum, you will certainly keep yourself out of jail.

Asking the ATF for clarification on something has fucked us more than helped. In addition different responses can be gained from the exact same question depending on who responds to it from the ATF. So basically it's all assholes and elbows up there.

As I have said before, you do you bro. Your defense is only as good as your lawyer if they come a knockin.

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I agree, I have the least interaction with BATF that I can, you will never get a straight answer and you will always get a different answer from every single person you talk with.  Calling BATF does nothing but confuse things more!

this is why we can't have nice things..

"someone" always wants to know exactly where the line is (or reads something, makes THEIR OWN interpretation and spreads bad advice/information around).

why can't people just stay the HELL away from the line (so it never gets questioned).  It's been my experience dealing with the bureaucrats in local and federal government that at any point in time, you could get the "fuck it, you can't build ANYTHING for yourself anymore" answer..



this is a perfect example of what I'm talking about.. he's literally suggesting that you "wink wink, nudge nudge" break the law.
TAIWAN, stay away from your keyboard before you make things worse..

Does each student have to purchase their own jig, drill press and drill bits?

Each student buys a kit, that includes, Upper, 80% lower, LPK, Upper Kit, including BCG, Barrel, Stock, Buffer, Bits and Jig, but the key is, they are using the same Mills/Drill Presses, etc.

Using the same tool (drill press/mill) to complete their lowers and they all put the kits together in the same room(but can't ask for help), which is part of what I believe is the gray area.

If I buy all of the bits, and parts, am I allowed to use someones mill/drill press?  Which is the question that the OP was asking, can I use someone else's mill?

This is the reason, I am saying, call the professor in charge of the gun smith program at the local college and talk with them to find out how they legally did it.

If I buy all of the parts, bits and pieces, am I allowed to use someone else's Mill/Press to complete the gun?

NOT a "grey" area!

BATF has already stated in WRITING this is illegal, IIRC it's from Technology Branch.

They in all probability called a field office, call 5 field offices, get 5 conflicting opinions.

What WOULD be legal is purchase your own Sieg X2 mini mill from Harbor Freight, do as many lowers as you feel you will ever need and then sell it on Craig's List.

Yes, it is a grey(gray) whether you like it or not.  I am posting from my experience and that experience includes a FFL/SOT license issued by them!  If you feel it is not gray, then don't do it, but the OP asked a legitimate question.

Thanks for the continued responses. I had no idea about the slew of comments I would get, so I'm glad I asked, even if it was opening a can of worms that I did not even know about. I also appreciate the machining responses, I would definitely hog out as much material as possilble with a drill bit or mill, so that the finish work was as minimal as possible.

I have an x-y axis table for my drill press. Grizzly has them for a few hundred bucks, and they make detailed drilling operations a lot easier, since you can clamp down your work on the table, and and then just crank the x and y to locate the bit exactly where you want.  

I also noticed that the router based jigs seem to make a decent lower as well, so there is always that option.

http://www.grizzly.com/products/6-x-18-1-2-Compound-Slide-Table/G8750

It has to be at least a little bit of a grey area because there is NO WAY that BATFE could really expect it to fly that loaning someone an F-ing allen wrench makes you a 'manufacturer' if they use it when completing a lower, especially if you are not in the business of making firearms or even machining, and even more if you don't charge them anything, and even more if they take the wrench off your property to theirs and you are not present when they complete their lower.  That would just be ridiculous.  And what is the difference, really between an allen wrench and a drill bit.  Or an end mill bit.  Or a cordless drill or a trim router or even a drill press.  They are all legal and commonly used hand tools that many people own and many people have loaned to others and that are perfectly legal to loan to others for non-firearms related projects.  I don't think it is even reasonable for them to expect people to believe there is anything wrong with loaning someone a jig.  If loaning someone a jig is illegal, then why isn't selling jigs illegal?

And just because they've said it is illegal doesn't mean they are right.  If your interpretation of what they are saying is what they intend then they are clearly trying to push the envelope far further here than they have legal standing to do.  I'm sure that BATFE would like to rule that an individual can only use a rat tail file and some emery cloth to make firearms, but the law does not give them that authority.

Anyway, I bought all my own tooling and I don't loan tools out to other people not because I am scared of BATFE coming after me but because I don't trust most people not to lose, steal or break them and the few I would trust don't need to borrow mine because they almost always have far better quality tools than I do.

And I'm also a former SOT/FFL.

But switching to my L.E. hat, do you have a spare $20,000 laying around to fight charges in a Federal Court?

Think they can't/won't do it?

Up until a couple of years ago I truly believed that BATF played by the same rules that the rest of Law Enforcement plays by, THEN I watched them systematically DESTROY a Detective because he was working a case on one of their C.I.'s and was going to put their C.I. behind bars.

He wound up being charged in Federal Court on a totally B.S. charge, he lost his career, had to outlay a tremendous amount of money.

The LOCAL Prosecutor stated it was B.S.

The Local TV station did a half hour special on the case showing that it was a "Railroad Job".

In the end, it basically cost him almost EVERYTHING!

If you have the money & the guts, go ahead and kick them in the junk.

I'm not afraid to state, they scare the shit out of me. I always thought a "Good Cop" didn't have to worry as it would always be sorted out in the end.

this^

here

https://www.atf.gov/file/11711/download

Pursuit,

They may scare you, bu they don't scare me, BATF and I have had our disagreements in the past, my last with them was actually before I retired from the Army, but I am sure it will not be the last as I believe it is an agency that is out of control.

That said, this has nothing to do with what the OP asked.  Which is why, I said he should call someone that is already doing what he is asking about, any gun smith school or class in America fits the bill.

Also, I would never suggest anybody doing anything illegal, but it is unfortunate, if it has been posted on here, someone all ready knows about it.

In the future, to anybody that has questions, I would not suggest asking for an answer on websites like this, seek out someone else that is doing what you are contemplating..

 
Unless you live in NJ....you can't finish 80% firearms or build your own firearms (homebuilts not necessarily AR's.) within the state borders.


State law requires you to have a manufacturers license to build a firearm there.

Seems to me that's a question for a jury.

You are confusing a batf ruling with logic and reason.  

Fact is, if the gov doesn't like you they WILL charge you with something if a warrant is served at your residence... even if they find nothing of note or value. The average people commits 3 felonies a day that they WILL find something even if you have been above board with the law.

Back to the OP's original question, I will say for 308 DPMS AR's I'd recommend a jig, because I just messed one up irreparably simply because I have no idea where the hole locations are, and so I drilled it in the wrong place (any attempt to fix it with epoxy and aluminum plug did not work at all). Problem is there are no reliable blueprints available for 308 AR's so I'm getting the wrong information out there as to hole location and pocket location (it's the same as a standard AR, so if you can locate the selector hole you can work from there, but there's no accurate way of doing this).

For AR15's however if you got a mill, you can easily do it without a jig (especially if you have a DRO on it) because accurate blueprints for the AR is available, and I've just done one without it, while it's not perfect (trigger slot dimension isn't there) it is functional.

That said the jig does provide a good clamping point for the mill, so it's still helpful to have them.

funny thing about juries..

they VERY RARELY decide against the government.
(now, a Judge is different, they frequently decide against the government).


and to go to a jury, you'll have to be arrested, detained until arraignment, post bail, and attend your trial, all while spending tens of thousands of dollars of your own money on your case, possibly losing your job in the meantime and being called a felon in the poll of public opinion..


are you volunteering to go through that so that a definitive decision can be made on something that the ATF has specifically said is not legal?

"...In the business..." implies a business relationship.


Business - the activity of making, buying, or selling goods or providing services in exchange for money, or other compensation.

Relationship - the way in which two or more people, groups, countries, etc., talk to, behave toward, and deal with each other.



If there is no business relationship, you cannot be "in the business"...

From the ATF letter:

My emphasis....

My non-lawyer interpretation....