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Posted: 8/17/2015 6:47:58 PM EDT
Hello All,
I have a quick question. I just finished building my first AR. Upon putting everything together I noticed the barrel isn't centered in the free float tube. I am 310% sure I put everything together correctly. Will this be an issue? I only plan on using scope and no iron sights. Other than my ocd, is this fine? See picture. For reference I have a spikes tactical upper receiver and a BCM 
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Posted: 8/17/2015 7:34:59 PM EDT
[#1]
Quoted:
Hello All, I have a quick question. I just finished building my first AR. Upon putting everything together I noticed the barrel isn't centered in the free float tube. I am 310% sure I put everything together correctly. Will this be an issue? I only plan on using scope and no iron sights. Other than my ocd, is this fine? See picture. For reference I have a spikes tactical upper receiver and a BCM 16" barrel with the BCM KMR hand guard. https://www.flickr.com/photos/133796464@N07/shares/8172s1 
Image fixed. I don't know Flickr, but you're looking to copy from Flickr and paste on Arfcom what's called "BBCode". It's probably under the Share options for a picture. |
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Posted: 8/17/2015 7:57:48 PM EDT
[#2]
So long as nothing, like the gas block, is hitting the rail you are fine since you are not going to use irons. However, you may have to crank in a lot of elevation on your scope to zero and at long range, you may run out of adjustment. IMO you should pull the barrel and lap the front of the receiver. I have had barrels that were slightly off center and/or BUIS that needed to be cranked way over to one side or the other or elevation cranked way up or down, lapping (squaring) the front of the receiver so the barrel does not set crooked in the upper has always cured the problem for me.
The lapping tool can be bought from Midway or Brownells for about $25 and you just chuck it in a drill (you do not need a drill press, a hand drill works fine) and put on the lapping compound and lap the front of the threads until you have it nice and square. The directions, I think, say lap for 80% but IMO that is nonsense. If you are going to lap and square things up, do 100% and be done with it or IMO you might as well do nothing at all. |
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Posted: 8/17/2015 9:09:22 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So long as nothing, like the gas block, is hitting the rail you are fine since you are not going to use irons. However, you may have to crank in a lot of elevation on your scope to zero and at long range, you may run out of adjustment. IMO you should pull the barrel and lap the front of the receiver. I have had barrels that were slightly off center and/or BUIS that needed to be cranked way over to one side or the other or elevation cranked way up or down, lapping (squaring) the front of the receiver so the barrel does not set crooked in the upper has always cured the problem for me. The lapping tool can be bought from Midway or Brownells for about $25 and you just chuck it in a drill (you do not need a drill press, a hand drill works fine) and put on the lapping compound and lap the front of the threads until you have it nice and square. The directions, I think, say lap for 80% but IMO that is nonsense. If you are going to lap and square things up, do 100% and be done with it or IMO you might as well do nothing at all. |
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Posted: 8/17/2015 9:32:54 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So is this due to the barrel or the upper receiver? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
So long as nothing, like the gas block, is hitting the rail you are fine since you are not going to use irons. However, you may have to crank in a lot of elevation on your scope to zero and at long range, you may run out of adjustment. IMO you should pull the barrel and lap the front of the receiver. I have had barrels that were slightly off center and/or BUIS that needed to be cranked way over to one side or the other or elevation cranked way up or down, lapping (squaring) the front of the receiver so the barrel does not set crooked in the upper has always cured the problem for me. The lapping tool can be bought from Midway or Brownells for about $25 and you just chuck it in a drill (you do not need a drill press, a hand drill works fine) and put on the lapping compound and lap the front of the threads until you have it nice and square. The directions, I think, say lap for 80% but IMO that is nonsense. If you are going to lap and square things up, do 100% and be done with it or IMO you might as well do nothing at all. Upper receiver. The face of the upper (where it contacts the flange on the barrel extension) isn't square. When you tighten the barrel nut it cants the barrel. Check out this video link |
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Posted: 8/17/2015 9:46:55 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Upper receiver. The face of the upper (where it contacts the flange on the barrel extension) isn't square. When you tighten the barrel nut it cants the barrel. Check out this video link Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: So long as nothing, like the gas block, is hitting the rail you are fine since you are not going to use irons. However, you may have to crank in a lot of elevation on your scope to zero and at long range, you may run out of adjustment. IMO you should pull the barrel and lap the front of the receiver. I have had barrels that were slightly off center and/or BUIS that needed to be cranked way over to one side or the other or elevation cranked way up or down, lapping (squaring) the front of the receiver so the barrel does not set crooked in the upper has always cured the problem for me. The lapping tool can be bought from Midway or Brownells for about $25 and you just chuck it in a drill (you do not need a drill press, a hand drill works fine) and put on the lapping compound and lap the front of the threads until you have it nice and square. The directions, I think, say lap for 80% but IMO that is nonsense. If you are going to lap and square things up, do 100% and be done with it or IMO you might as well do nothing at all. Upper receiver. The face of the upper (where it contacts the flange on the barrel extension) isn't square. When you tighten the barrel nut it cants the barrel. Check out this video link |
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Posted: 8/17/2015 9:59:50 PM EDT
[#6]
in my experience it's the crappy tubes (and i don't mean cheap necessarily) and the funky mounting methods.
free float tubes don't do anything but hold stuff, they don't (but should) have to be centered. |
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Posted: 8/17/2015 10:07:04 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Interesting. I'm havin a similar issue. My gas block is touching my rail when I fire it. There is a very small amount of clearance but firing the weapon makes the gb contact the barrel. rail. I wonder if it's the upper receiver or the barrel nut or possibly the barrel extension itself. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
So long as nothing, like the gas block, is hitting the rail you are fine since you are not going to use irons. However, you may have to crank in a lot of elevation on your scope to zero and at long range, you may run out of adjustment. IMO you should pull the barrel and lap the front of the receiver. I have had barrels that were slightly off center and/or BUIS that needed to be cranked way over to one side or the other or elevation cranked way up or down, lapping (squaring) the front of the receiver so the barrel does not set crooked in the upper has always cured the problem for me. The lapping tool can be bought from Midway or Brownells for about $25 and you just chuck it in a drill (you do not need a drill press, a hand drill works fine) and put on the lapping compound and lap the front of the threads until you have it nice and square. The directions, I think, say lap for 80% but IMO that is nonsense. If you are going to lap and square things up, do 100% and be done with it or IMO you might as well do nothing at all. Upper receiver. The face of the upper (where it contacts the flange on the barrel extension) isn't square. When you tighten the barrel nut it cants the barrel. Check out this video link Fixed it for you. I would post the question with some pics and I'm sure someone here will help you. With only one build under my belt, I really don't feel confident trying to diagnose problems and offer solutions. |
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Posted: 8/18/2015 11:20:19 AM EDT
[#8]
I would think that would depend on which one is crooked and why.
I would fix it either way. |
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Posted: 8/18/2015 9:32:48 PM EDT
[#9]
Somrtimes there can be nothing wrong with the GB or the forend, only that the GB is too big to fit under some of these really skinny forends, like MI. On all of my MI forends, if I am using a GB bigger than .750, I have to shave about .070 inch off the bottom of the GB and shorten the set screws. The only gas block I have used larger than .750 that fit under my MI Gen 2 SS and SSK forends are those made by TROY. They are the smallest GBs I have found and even .936 LP TROY blocks will fit under the MI forends without shaving.
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Posted: 8/18/2015 10:21:32 PM EDT
[#10]
It is also possible that the KMR just isn't centered.
The clamp style rails can be knocked out of center, some easier than others. Not saying yours took a hit but that it may be an easier fix than the receiver or barrel. Try taking the rail off and reinstalling to see if it gets centered up. I know I can take my rifle with the KMR properly installed, stand it upright on its butt on my hardwood floor and drop it to shift the rail to barrel relation. |
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Posted: 8/19/2015 4:09:40 PM EDT
[#11]
The face of the upper needs to be trued. This is done with a upper lapping tool. I lap every upper I put together. Most don't need it, a few do. All the benchrest guys do it as part of their initial assembly.
The last one I did was most obviously in need of lapping. It wasn't the least bit obvious until I started actually doing it, and the area from about 9 o'clock to 1 o'clock was untouched while the rest had the anodizing removed. this indicates that the barrel woud have been pointing up and to the right as compared to the center boreline of the upper, and would have made alligning sights difficult if not impossible. Every upper I've done had at least some mild uneveness across the face, and this is why the BR guys ALWAYS lap. Accuracy can be affected by uneven pressure around the interface between the upper face and the flange of the barrel extension. This eliminates that and ensures the barrel is perfectly in line with the bore line of the upper receiver. The tool can be found at Brownells for about $35. Most use 200 or 300 grit compound, but I like the 600 to go a little slower and give a bit more control. I also run just a little compound inside the upper to smooth out where the BCG rides. This makes for a really slick action, much like lapping in a bolt gun. |
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Posted: 8/20/2015 1:16:08 AM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I also run just a little compound inside the upper to smooth out where the BCG rides. This makes for a really slick action, much like lapping in a bolt gun. What do you mean with inside the upper? With your fingers? |
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Posted: 8/20/2015 2:17:46 AM EDT
[#13]
You need to first lay a straight edge (and I mean an actual tool called a straight edge, not a cheap ruler; we use them to check cylinder heads and decks for warpage) atop the rifle to see if it's the hand guard that's off, or the barrel. If it's the hand guard, you can usually tweak it by applying pressure while tightening (or beveling the back of the tube with thread-on types). If it's the barrel, then yes, the issue is either that the barrel extension isn't true (very unlikely) or the receiver face isn't square (also unlikely, but more probable than barrel). If you have a friend who is a respectable mechanic, he should have a straight edge you can borrow, as I'm sure you're not wanting to spend $80+ on one for this purpose.
I have not kept track of exactly how many uppers I've built, and I've never needed to square a receiver face. Handguards that weren't aligned with the barrel have always proven to be a handguard issue IME. |
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Posted: 8/20/2015 11:19:14 AM EDT
[#14]
I won't mention the name of the company that I purchased a free float hand guard from and found it to be off center with
the barrel. I was installing the front sight on the misaligned free float hand guard. In order to sight BUIS in I had to use up all of my windage adjustment. I was not happy and contacted the manufacturer of hand guard. They eventually admitted the problem and exchanged the hand guard with a proper aligned one. End of story. Have fun and insist on perfection if that firearm is to used for personal self protection. |
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Posted: 8/20/2015 1:37:24 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
What do you mean with inside the upper? With your fingers? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I also run just a little compound inside the upper to smooth out where the BCG rides. This makes for a really slick action, much like lapping in a bolt gun. What do you mean with inside the upper? With your fingers? The shaft of the lapping tool goes into the upper where the barrel extension would. This is how it alligns itself to lap the face of the upper. I will put a thin layer on the shaft of the tool to smooth the inside of the upper, then flush everything out with brake cleaner. |
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Posted: 8/20/2015 10:38:34 PM EDT
[#16]
I will put a thin layer on the shaft of the tool to smooth the inside of the upper, Bad idea. It's easy enough to screw up the bore of the upper using one of those tools without abrasive compound where it should be. Running one of those things with a hand drill is about like a Parkinson's sufferer trying to perform brain surgery. The bolt carrier does not tightly fit the upper like a ringless piston in an RC nitro engine, and thus the bore of the upper needn't be glass smooth. They only make contact on about 10% of the ~320° of circumference that the upper bore encloses. The contact points will seat themselves, the remainder will be untouched. |
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Posted: 8/21/2015 11:54:22 AM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Bad idea. It's easy enough to screw up the bore of the upper using one of those tools without abrasive compound where it should be. Running one of those things with a hand drill is about like a Parkinson's sufferer trying to perform brain surgery. The bolt carrier does not tightly fit the upper like a ringless piston in an RC nitro engine, and thus the bore of the upper needn't be glass smooth. They only make contact on about 10% of the ~320° of circumference that the upper bore encloses. The contact points will seat themselves, the remainder will be untouched. Quote HistoryQuoted:
I will put a thin layer on the shaft of the tool to smooth the inside of the upper, Bad idea. It's easy enough to screw up the bore of the upper using one of those tools without abrasive compound where it should be. Running one of those things with a hand drill is about like a Parkinson's sufferer trying to perform brain surgery. The bolt carrier does not tightly fit the upper like a ringless piston in an RC nitro engine, and thus the bore of the upper needn't be glass smooth. They only make contact on about 10% of the ~320° of circumference that the upper bore encloses. The contact points will seat themselves, the remainder will be untouched. Which company's tool were you using? The one from Brownells link fit in my drill as stable as any drill bit. The Wheeler one at PSA with a longer, flexible shaft link does look like it could be unstable. Edit: I still wouldn't put lapping compound inside the receiver where the carrier rides, I just keep it lubed up good. |
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Posted: 8/21/2015 1:03:56 PM EDT
[#18]
Lap the reciever. Since I started doing that on all my builds, my irons require barely any adjustments from mechanical zero if any. Well worth it
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Posted: 8/21/2015 3:17:05 PM EDT
[#19]
Which company's tool were you using? If I need to true a surface, I indicate the piece within 0.0002" and set quill depth, run over it with an end mill or fly cutter. If I need to true a hole, I do the same, and use a reamer or boring head. The one from Brownells link fit in my drill as stable as any drill bit. Doesn't matter how well it fits your drill; it's that you cannot hold that drill rigidly enough to avoid exerting lateral pressure, or resist oscillation if it is present. If you don't believe me, find a perfectly square piece of something, drill a hole through it, and then mic the distance from the hole to each side on both ends. You'll be surprised just how far off square that hole is bored, even using a drill press with a vise. There is a reason machine tools are so heavy, robust and rigid. |
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Posted: 8/21/2015 6:06:45 PM EDT
[#20]
I've had that happen to me with a geissele mk4 rail I lapped the reciever(100% of the face) and it was still off center. Which at that point means the barrel nut threading is off. You could have the same issue. If you can get the irons zeroed than I wouldn't worry about it.
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Posted: 8/29/2015 10:22:49 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The face of the upper needs to be trued. This is done with a upper lapping tool. I lap every upper I put together. Most don't need it, a few do. All the benchrest guys do it as part of their initial assembly. The last one I did was most obviously in need of lapping. It wasn't the least bit obvious until I started actually doing it, and the area from about 9 o'clock to 1 o'clock was untouched while the rest had the anodizing removed. this indicates that the barrel woud have been pointing up and to the right as compared to the center boreline of the upper, and would have made alligning sights difficult if not impossible. Every upper I've done had at least some mild uneveness across the face, and this is why the BR guys ALWAYS lap. Accuracy can be affected by uneven pressure around the interface between the upper face and the flange of the barrel extension. This eliminates that and ensures the barrel is perfectly in line with the bore line of the upper receiver. The tool can be found at Brownells for about $35. Most use 200 or 300 grit compound, but I like the 600 to go a little slower and give a bit more control. I also run just a little compound inside the upper to smooth out where the BCG rides. This makes for a really slick action, much like lapping in a bolt gun. cheap and easy,its well worth the small effort when doing your own builds.I started when I bought my first FF rail. |
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Posted: 8/30/2015 5:50:55 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If I need to true a surface, I indicate the piece within 0.0002" and set quill depth, run over it with an end mill or fly cutter. If I need to true a hole, I do the same, and use a reamer or boring head. Doesn't matter how well it fits your drill; it's that you cannot hold that drill rigidly enough to avoid exerting lateral pressure, or resist oscillation if it is present. If you don't believe me, find a perfectly square piece of something, drill a hole through it, and then mic the distance from the hole to each side on both ends. You'll be surprised just how far off square that hole is bored, even using a drill press with a vise. There is a reason machine tools are so heavy, robust and rigid. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Which company's tool were you using? If I need to true a surface, I indicate the piece within 0.0002" and set quill depth, run over it with an end mill or fly cutter. If I need to true a hole, I do the same, and use a reamer or boring head. The one from Brownells link fit in my drill as stable as any drill bit. Doesn't matter how well it fits your drill; it's that you cannot hold that drill rigidly enough to avoid exerting lateral pressure, or resist oscillation if it is present. If you don't believe me, find a perfectly square piece of something, drill a hole through it, and then mic the distance from the hole to each side on both ends. You'll be surprised just how far off square that hole is bored, even using a drill press with a vise. There is a reason machine tools are so heavy, robust and rigid. So are you saying as, I assume a machinist, that the Brownells tool is likely to do more harm than good? When I saw how it worked I questioned just how accurate it could really be if it fits in the upper receiver loosely enough to spin and not hurt the aluminum. I've never used one nor am I a machinist (but a long time mechanic) but it looked like an unlikely thing to work well. I'm barrelling my first upper soon and am gathering data. |
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Posted: 8/30/2015 6:32:37 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So are you saying as, I assume a machinist, that the Brownells tool is likely to do more harm than good? When I saw how it worked I questioned just how accurate it could really be if it fits in the upper receiver loosely enough to spin and not hurt the aluminum. I've never used one nor am I a machinist (but a long time mechanic) but it looked like an unlikely thing to work well. I'm barrelling my first upper soon and am gathering data. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Which company's tool were you using? If I need to true a surface, I indicate the piece within 0.0002" and set quill depth, run over it with an end mill or fly cutter. If I need to true a hole, I do the same, and use a reamer or boring head. The one from Brownells link fit in my drill as stable as any drill bit. Doesn't matter how well it fits your drill; it's that you cannot hold that drill rigidly enough to avoid exerting lateral pressure, or resist oscillation if it is present. If you don't believe me, find a perfectly square piece of something, drill a hole through it, and then mic the distance from the hole to each side on both ends. You'll be surprised just how far off square that hole is bored, even using a drill press with a vise. There is a reason machine tools are so heavy, robust and rigid. So are you saying as, I assume a machinist, that the Brownells tool is likely to do more harm than good? When I saw how it worked I questioned just how accurate it could really be if it fits in the upper receiver loosely enough to spin and not hurt the aluminum. I've never used one nor am I a machinist (but a long time mechanic) but it looked like an unlikely thing to work well. I'm barrelling my first upper soon and am gathering data. Here are a couple of links for you to read LINK LINK. I used the Brownell's one on an Aero upper, no faster than you need to run the drill, I am sure that there is virtually NO chance of jackng up your upper. If you're running it that fast, you shouldn't be using power tools. |
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Posted: 8/30/2015 7:13:51 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So long as nothing, like the gas block, is hitting the rail you are fine since you are not going to use irons. However, you may have to crank in a lot of elevation on your scope to zero and at long range, you may run out of adjustment. IMO you should pull the barrel and lap the front of the receiver. I have had barrels that were slightly off center and/or BUIS that needed to be cranked way over to one side or the other or elevation cranked way up or down, lapping (squaring) the front of the receiver so the barrel does not set crooked in the upper has always cured the problem for me. The lapping tool can be bought from Midway or Brownells for about $25 and you just chuck it in a drill (you do not need a drill press, a hand drill works fine) and put on the lapping compound and lap the front of the threads until you have it nice and square. The directions, I think, say lap for 80% but IMO that is nonsense. If you are going to lap and square things up, do 100% and be done with it or IMO you might as well do nothing at all. But you also need to be careful not to take to much material away as you will change the specs in the face of the upper. Then the barrel extension will go to far into the upper. |
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Posted: 8/30/2015 10:45:59 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Which company's tool were you using? If I need to true a surface, I indicate the piece within 0.0002" and set quill depth, run over it with an end mill or fly cutter. If I need to true a hole, I do the same, and use a reamer or boring head. The one from Brownells link fit in my drill as stable as any drill bit. Doesn't matter how well it fits your drill; it's that you cannot hold that drill rigidly enough to avoid exerting lateral pressure, or resist oscillation if it is present. If you don't believe me, find a perfectly square piece of something, drill a hole through it, and then mic the distance from the hole to each side on both ends. You'll be surprised just how far off square that hole is bored, even using a drill press with a vise. There is a reason machine tools are so heavy, robust and rigid. So are you saying as, I assume a machinist, that the Brownells tool is likely to do more harm than good? When I saw how it worked I questioned just how accurate it could really be if it fits in the upper receiver loosely enough to spin and not hurt the aluminum. I've never used one nor am I a machinist (but a long time mechanic) but it looked like an unlikely thing to work well. I'm barrelling my first upper soon and am gathering data. Here are a couple of links for you to read LINK LINK. I used the Brownell's one on an Aero upper, no faster than you need to run the drill, I am sure that there is virtually NO chance of jackng up your upper. If you're running it that fast, you shouldn't be using power tools. Thank's, I read through them and it seems to still be about 50/50 opinion wise. Wonder what an acceptable rage of true is? I have a digital level that's good for a tenth of a degree that I do car alignments with, one could zero it to a flat surface, stand the upper receiver on it threads down and measure the upper rail surface, but I don't have a point of reference for if that's precise enough. I'm assuming something more than a tenth of a degree or someone would have thought of this by now as common and cheap as those levels are now. edit: 89.8 on my AP upper using a piece of glass as the base. Wish I had a completely true machinist flat surface to measure on. That and some feeler gauges and an absolute L would probably do it for measuring. |
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Posted: 8/31/2015 8:13:31 AM EDT
[#26]
Yes it does seem opinions are split about even so I'll throw mine out there. I think you are way overthinking this. After all, it's the face of an AR15 upper receiver not a panel on the outside of a stealth bomber. Again JMO.
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Posted: 8/31/2015 11:15:25 AM EDT
[#27]
A further thought. Since the chamber is part of the barrell and will be inline with the barrel regardless of orientation to the upper (assuming it's made correctly), wouldn't sight alignment and bolt locking
be the only two things affected by the alignment being off? There seems to be a lot of expectation of increased accuracy from lapping but I don't see how that would happen the way these things are built. |
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Posted: 8/31/2015 3:05:33 PM EDT
[#28]
It doesn't sound like there'd be increased accuracy from this lapping procedure. If you can get your sights on target them theoretically everything is fine. However, I also understand wanting to get everything as "perfect" as possible. An in-line barrel is desirable.
This is akin to having your buttstock be perfectly vertical. Mine is off by a degree and I want to correct it at some point. Would it make a difference in accuracy? None whatsoever. |
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Posted: 9/4/2015 4:36:56 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It doesn't sound like there'd be increased accuracy from this lapping procedure. If you can get your sights on target them theoretically everything is fine. However, I also understand wanting to get everything as "perfect" as possible. An in-line barrel is desirable. This is akin to having your buttstock be perfectly vertical. Mine is off by a degree and I want to correct it at some point. Would it make a difference in accuracy? None whatsoever. You're underthinking it. If you're using open sight, yeah the accuracy here means little, except in the case of the OP where he had an obvious misalignment of the barrel. The reason ALL benchrest guys do this to their uppers is to create a perfectly concentric clamping force on the extension flange. Uneven clamping induces torque into the system. That torque can cause a slight distortion in the barrel, and thus alter the projectile ever so slightly. In most cases you may be talking a 1/4 moa which at 100yds is nothing, but at 600 it's 1.5" and quite likely a lost match. |
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Posted: 9/5/2015 8:03:22 PM EDT
[#30]
Right on Big Bore. I suspect most forged upper receivers could use some flattening of their forward edges. Most of the time the effect on barrel alignment is too small to see with the naked eye. When the misalignment is enough to affect iron sight windage more than a click or two, you can definitely see it up front, as the OP's pictures illustrate. The drill is - remove barrel, lap front end of receiver, reinstall taking care to wiggle the barrel a little while tightening and reinstall handguard. With that, the barrel should be nicely centered inside the front of the handguard. - CW
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