I'm planning an AR15A3 build that will have a 20" national match barrel.

I'm currently trying to decide between barrels from:

kriegerbarrels.com ($440)
blackholeweaponry.com ($350)

Both have good reputations.

I'm going to be putting an Trijicon ACOG (3.5x) on it, not a full power scope, so that will limit accuracy.

I'd like to hear from those who have experience with either or both firms or who recommend something else of comparable accuracy. But all opinions are welcome.

Krieger would by my preference but only because I know nothing about black hole weaponry barrels.  Are you building a NM upper competition upper or are you just wanting the barrel?

I won't actually be competing, I just want an accurate rifle capable of competing. It will also have a free float handguard.

 
Unless you plan on shooting high power/CMP competitions which each has their own specefic guidelines for what is and is not acceptable equipment/rifles configurations (last I checked, but that was a long time ago and my memory isn't that great) I would probably look into building something a bit different.  Not saying NM uppers are bad, because they're not, they're just a bit much for casual paper punching (I.E. heavy) and kind of limited as to what is and is not legal for competition with them.  Now compare that to say a purpose built precision upper the sky is the limit and you can have some additional features that really are quite nice adjustable gas blocks, muzzle brakes (assuming you're putting this on a pre-ban lower since you're location is CA), ect.  I'm not trying to dissuade you from building what you want, just making sure you know the pros and cons before you start shelling out the money for parts.  I was at one match where someone showed up much like I did, another competitor loaned them one of his spare rifles so he didn't have to shoot at such a disadvantage.  




FWIW my first high power match I shot with a standard A2 (gov profile 1x7) upper with Rem UMC 55gr .223.  I didn't do great, but I also didn't come in last either.  It's a different style of shooting that you should give a try before you make the plunge for the rifle and follow on equipment.  Check your local clubs to see if they have a match, attend it either as a spectator or as a shooter.  You'll be pleasantly surprised that the people who shoot high power/CMP matches are quite nice folk who will often loan you equipment if you don't have any (or if something breaks).  


 

I got used to the weight of an HBAR long ago. But I'm open to suggestions.

Since you bring it up, let me ask: what is an appropriate barrel for an ACOG (3.5x)?

The standard theory of barrel weight is that heavier is better for holding the POI after several rounds have been fired and the barrel heats up. So is the margin of error with an ACOG greater than the POI difference in movement between a standard and match barrel?

(I would certainily not bother with a heavy barrel if I was using iron sights.)

A similar question is stainless steel vs. chrome molly. Will I notice the improved accuracy of SS with an ACOG?

(I've thought about competing but that would definitely constrain the rifle design. Do they even allow A3?)

For the Highpower service rifle, the thing must look much like an A-2.  However, an A-2 carry handle on a Pitcanny rail is O.K.

In the NRA match rifle category, there is a lot more leeway in what the rifle can look like.  However, iron sights must be used.  High master level shooters can hold pretty much 1MOA all day and their rifles will do the same.  But, the wind tends to muck things up at 600 yards.  The kind of sight really makes little difference as far as precision and accuracy, unless you are looking at sub 1/2 to 1/4 MOA in a bench rest competition.

Now, with respect to the weight thing, many competitors will add weights until their service rifle weighs in around 14 to 16 pounds.  And yes, these are shot off hand with no trouble.  NRA match rifles will be at similar weights.

Yes, of course. I could drop the  ACOG and put on a carry handle. But doesn't it also need an A2 style free float handguard for the HP service rifle competition? I was planning something more modern like keymod.

Ultimately I'm interested in off the bench accuracy (with the ACOG) e.g. for coyote or other varmint probably from a pretty stable position such as a blind. But I'd sure enjoy some sub MOA from the bench just for the satisfaction of knowing I could do it.

I can't remember what the A2 HBAR weighed but it was nowhere near 14 lbs.

 
ACOG's and barrel length aren't really mutually exclusive.  They don't improve the accuracy of the weapon one iota, they just make it easier to shoot a tighter group because you can see the target better.  In short: optics don't make you a better shooter, you make you a better shooter.  




As far as barrel profile is concerned, there's really no need to go heavier than a medium contour IMHO.  Heavy barrels are more rigid and do take longer to heat up.  Some people like fluting them to take some of the weight off yet still have the heavy barrel profile.  Some people like dimples, twists, swirls, or whatever other stuff is out there.  It's cool and serves a purpose, but not something I choose to go out of my way to buy because my budget doesn't allow for the fun and frivolous spending I did before I was married and had a kid (still wouldn't trade them for it though).  Lightweight barrels as you know will heat up faster, and as such have no place in a more precision oriented build.  Government barrels are slightly better than lightweight, but honestly not by that much in this regards.  Medium contour barrels, or whatever coined term XYZ manufacture wants to call theirs, sort of hit the middle ground between a government profile and a heavy profile.  Regarding the standard vs "match" barrels, depending on the manufacture the term "match" may actually mean something or it may mean exactly nothing more than a standard barrel with the word MATCH stamped on it for marketing purposes.  


SS vs CM vs Chrome Lined vs new hotness barrels.  My info on this is a bit dated.  I got out of the AR game about 6 years ago when I shut down my business as a gunsmith and gun shop and enlisted in the Army.  Back then the only choices were SS, CM, and chrome lined.  SS were considered to be the more accurate but had a shorter life due to being a slightly softer metal.  Chrome-Moly, not to be confused with chrome lined, were much harder and also very accurate barrels but lacked the inherent corrosion resistance of SS or chrome lining.  Chrome Lined have the best corrosion resistance of these due to the chrome lining, however they're not the most accurate because of the manufacturing process (has to be slightly larger to account for the chrome lining) and the chroming process not being perfectly even/consistent.  Now with some of these new hotness coatings/treatments, the prevalence of cold hammer forged barrels which are very economical now, and probably a few others I'm forgetting to mention the options have never been better.  That said, I've still got my homework to do in this area, and we probably wont get enough long term data on these newer options for several years to come.  From what I have read thus far, some of the newer options trump chrome-lined barrels corrosion resistance, and those that are also cold hammer forged or even polygonal rifled are now some of the more accurate barrels out there.  Sorry I don't have a better answer for you here.


One last thing that you have not mentioned is barrel twist rates in relation to what weight bullets you're going to shoot.  That will dictate which twist rate is better or worse for you.  1x7 is pretty much the defacto standard.  1x9 barrels used to be fairly common and were a point of many an argument on these boards of which was better and why.  The cliff notes version of it is the lighter the bullet the slower the twist, the heavier the bullet the faster the twist.  If you just shoot factory ammo that's 55gr or 62gr it doesn't really matter that much.  If you handload or shoot match grade rounds (expensive) then it makes a bit more of a difference.  Keep in mind round type and quality have a direct correlation to accuracy.  It doesn't matter much if you have a true match grade barrel and you're shooting 3-5MOA ammo through it.  The best you can expect are 3-5MOA groupings (possibly smaller with some "luck" thrown in there.).  The inverse is also true that if you're shooting match grade ammo out of a standard grade barrel, don't expect to be utilizing the ammo to it's fullest potential.


I do want to just briefly mention chambering.  A .223 chamber is for .223 Remington ONLY.  A 5.56mm NATO chamber will fire both .223 and 5.56mm rounds with no issue.  A .223 Wylde will shoot both .223REM and 5.56mm but will "fire form" the case.  Unless you hand load, and are willing to buy another set of dies, just don't buy a .223 Wylde chambered barrel.  That's just my opinion of course, I just think you won't get full use out of the rifles abilities if you don't reload .223 Wylde, so why pay a premium for it if you won't use it fully.


In short your style/type of shooting will dictate what you will build.  

The difference between a coyote/varmint AR and a precision AR is very thin.  There's a lot of overlap between the two, and varmint guns as well as precision guns are generally in the same area in regards to accuracy.  The main difference is a precision AR only shot from a bench can get away being a big fat pig of a gun with all sorts of accessories hanging off every inch of rail space, where as a varmint gun might have to be carried further than from vehicle to shooting bench so they tend to be trimmer/leaner and have less accessories on them.  From what you have described now, this is what you should be aiming to build.  You've already said you want a keymod handguard, that right there automatically eliminates that upper from being used in any form of national match style shooting competitions.  






I want to say it was John Noveske who said if he could only have 2 AR's the would be a 12.5" SBR and an 18" rifle.  Now whether you liked him or not, he didn't pull those numbers out of thin air.  They were based on the average velocity's of rounds he shot out of his guns and what he felt gave you the best bang for your buck (pun intended).  Unless you're making this rifle pull double duty as a HD gun, go with an 18" barrel.  16" would be fine as well but 18" would be preferred.  Whatever rail you want is up to you, same goes for the CH and BCG (I tend towards phosphate coated, but would entertain the new whiz-bang coated ones after doing some reading).  The only choice left is gas blocks.  If you're trying to hide the gas block under the rail it limits your selection, if you're not then the sky is the limit.  Go with what your barrel is setup for (dimpled for screws or drilled/slotted for pins).  If it's slotted for pins you can save some cash by cutting down an A2 FSB.  If you want an adjustable gas block (great for tuning the gun to have softer recoil and work with whatever buffer you have) then again your options are narrowed and your costs go up.  Muzzle devices, up to you if you're putting this on a pre-ban lower.  I personally thing flash hiders other than the A2 are pointless unless used as a suppressor mount.  Muzzle brakes are useful if you have a direct need for one, and also if you need a suppressor mount.






Unless you're wanting iron sights, or building this as a SHTF gun, BUIS are completely unnecessary for a precision or varmint gun.




YMMV but there's my $0.02 for the grand total sum of free.  Hope that helps




 

<ETA> A2 HBAR is ~8lbs unloaded without sling

Thanks for all the advice. It's good to think about this stuff before I build it and I appreciate challenging my plan and giving me more options than I might otherwise have considered.

I would not describe this as a HD (or SHTF) gun. I have a very vanilla A2 that better fills that role. I should mention that I also have a couple decent hunting rifles with high powered scopes.

So my goal with this rifle was something in between, hence the ACOG. I've hunted with high powered scopes and with iron sights but I'm curious how an ACOG would do. (If I'm not happy with it I could always replace it with a hunting scope but I'd rather adapt to the ACOG to add variety.)

I definitely don't want to go above the familiar HBAR weight. I've had no trouble carrying that but would hate to build a rifle I don't enjoy carrying in the field. I'm pretty confident that I'll be fine with the weight of a NM barrel. Yeah, 8 lb sounds right.

My understanding of SS vs. CM was as described. I wouldn't mind swapping out the SS barrel after a few years of hard use now that I know how to do that.

Regarding twist, I notice that there are lots more options now than the old 1x7, 1x9, and 1x12. Krieger offers 1.65 and 7.7. I'd prefer to shoot heavier bullets in this rifle, both for accuracy and energy, so I presume the tighter the better. (The A2 does best with 55gr.)

 
Do you handload?  What weights do you want to shoot?


I don't hunt coyotes, but while a 3.5x ACOG will do the job, it's certainly not the best tool for the job.  Do you like to call them in close or shoot them from afar?  I guess that will also sort of dictate what weight round you want to use, in addition to if you're dealing with open areas and cross winds.  I was under the impression that with coyotes you didn't want to use the heavier rounds since they could over-penetrate and ruin more of the hide.  But again I don't hunt them so I really have no clue beyond a SWAG.


And FWIW the vast majority of shooters will never actually shoot out a barrel.  Read this, with brass cased ammo accuracy didn't significantly deminish over 10,000rds.  Steel cased on the other hand did kill a barrel much sooner.

I do handload. In CA we have to use copper so that limits the upper end. I'd probably go with 62gr Barnes but there is also a 70gr.

I guess I'll have to learn to call them in close enough. Of course, it would be easier with a 40x scope but I'm looking to get better acquainted.

I did shoot out my HBAR. It can be done. I probably put a lot more than 10k rounds through it but I can only guess. I'm expecting that a SS will give out sooner than CM from what I've read.

 
Ah so CA did pass the no-lead ammo law huh.  Must have happened while I was deployed last year/earlier this year.  For that weight 1x7 is fine.




I only mention the calling them in closer because depending on what reticle you have in your ACOG you may not really get a solid aiming point with it.  I'm assuming you already have one so you kind of already know what I'm talking about.  The chevron is a bit better than the "doughnut of death" in this regards.  Once you're onto the BDC scale it's not so bad though.  Additionally that whole pesky natural camouflage thing they do so well does sometimes make it hard to differentiate them from their back drop.  So you'll have to get them in closer to ensure a good aiming point for a clean kill.  That's sorta diving away from the whole ACOG and more into the "ethical shot or not" realm which you can only really make that call in the field.


 

If your HBAR made it that far, you're obviously doing something right.  The article is an interesting read you might enjoy sometime, specifically when they get into the cutting the barrels open and seeing how they wore down bit.

There have been "condor zones" for years but it's creeping forward (https://www.wildlife.ca.gov/hunting/nonlead-ammunition).

Yes, agreed on the ACOG. My intention is to utilize it closer than I would a full power scope. When I originally posed the question I was thinking a less accurate barrel might better match the ACOG but now that I think about it, I'll go with the match barrel in case I decide to give up on the ACOG and go with a full power scope. Even with the ACOG, I'd like to find out how accurate I can get from the bench.

My ACOG is currently on the A2 but I bought a model that is suited to a flattop (there is a slight distinction in the range estimates due to the height of the carry handle). It's the red crosshair model.

Back to barrels, does nobody have any opinions on brands? I was hoping to hear some experience with them. Krieger is pretty well known but Black Hole Weaponry seems to be the new kid on the block. I couldn't seem to find any online reviews comparing the two.

i just bought Krieger's .223 chambered HBar DCM barrel from Brownells. awaiting delivery now. i am going to build a new upper with this barrel, using  a RRA TRO freefloat rail, and a DPMS Low Pro HD upper receiver. the lower is a Sig Sauer M400, with a Geissele National Match trigger, and a Magpul PRS stock. glass to be determined.

I also just want a super accurate AR to shoot out to 500 yds, and yes, i hand load.  I bought the barrel based on recommendations and Krieger's reputation. we will soon see how well i can shoot this build. i will post some results after i get it broken in.

Sounds almost exactly what I'm considering except you chose 223 over 5.56 for the extra accuracy, I guess. I was looking at Wylde but I hate the idea of having to separate my 223 brass between my two AR rifles. I'll probably stick with 5.56 and hope for the best.

Please post more about your build as you progress with it and expecially your impression of the barrel accuracy.

RRA or WOA.

Anyone want to share their thoughts on Krieger (or Black Hole Weaponry) vs. Rock River Arms or White Oak Arms?

No experience with any of the barrels, but I'd go with Krieger without a second thought.

the new build is complete. did some break in shots/cleaning. hopefully tomorrow i can get it out to 100 yards to see how it shoots with my hand loads.  going start with 69gr Sierra MatchKings with 5 different loads of Alliant AR-Comp powder. threw on an inexpensive 6-25x UTG scope for this. my budget ran out on the build, so i gotta wait to get some good glass. probably going to go with  Vortex Viper HS-T 6-24x.

just an update on this build. finally got some better glass and mount (Millet LRS-1 6-25x with a JP engineering cantilever mount) for this upper. I  tried a series of different hand loads/bullets. initially, results were some what sporadic, but, have so far found that Sierra 55 gr BlitzKings and 77 gr MatchkKings are shooting the best at 100 yards, the max I have shot so far.  Interestingly, i tried 75 gr Hornady Amax's which have worked very well in another upper (also a 1 in 8 twist), but got no luck at all with these in the Krieger. I may try these again with some different powder in the future.

The BlitzKings in particular are looking real good with consistent 1/2 inch 5 shot groups at 100. I think I might be able to improve on that a bit as well. goin try 53 gr Sierra flat base MatchKings next. I can see the 50 or so grain rounds working great at 100 to 200 yards and the 77gr for the longer ranges working real well.
 
BIG FUN!!!

finally got the new glass on this build. it's a Millet LRS-1 mounted with a JP Engineering cantilever mount.  i also added a polished aluminum plate mounted on the bottom of the hand guard so it will ride the front bag better.

started shooting the  53 gr flat base Matchkings. they are also shooting in the .5 range. playing around with different powders now so we will se how that goes. trying to get down to 5 shot groups in the .3's and .4's.

a new pic

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