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Posted: 3/28/2015 10:29:05 AM EDT

Hey guys, needs some help here. I am going to be building my first AR at the end of next month. Pretty much know what I want, except the most important thing. Caliber. I already have a Ruger M77 MK2 in .223 so that was my first thought. It makes sense, I have the ammo, I like the round (for my intended uses) and it is easy to find. Seems like a no brainer, done deal. Then our fearless leaders say they want to ban 5.56 /.223. So I look into the .300 blackout.. 6.5 Grendel...ect. I like the .300. as the mags are the same as 5.56, BCG same ect. Grendel needs questionable functioning mags, and different BCG, ect. I already have the Spikes Tactical lower so the .308 is out of the question unfortunately.

Would REALLY like to go with the .223 Wylde....but with the looming ban I just don't know. So what do you guys think?

Posted: 3/28/2015 10:56:14 AM EDT

[#1]

The proposed ban was for steel core ammo (labeled "armor piercing" by our benevolent overlords). I wouldn't worry about standard .223/5.56 being banned anytime soon. They'd probably have to ban all rifle ammo to implement that. I say get the Wylde.

Posted: 3/28/2015 11:17:55 AM EDT

[#2]

I agree, +1 on the Wylde. The whole green tip ban proposal seems like a sham to create panic to stimulate sales.

Posted: 3/28/2015 11:21:59 AM EDT

[#3]

As stated, the ban was for one specific round, not all .223. 300blk is expensive, but not terrible if you reload or don't mind the cost.
Go with .223/5.56.

Posted: 3/28/2015 11:31:57 AM EDT

[#4]

I've never been much of a conspiracy theorist, but, if the shit does hit the fan some day you don't need a rifle that you can't get ammo for. I'd also go with the .223 Wylde.

Posted: 3/28/2015 2:40:00 PM EDT

[#5]

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Quoted:
As stated, the ban was for one specific round, not all .223. 300blk is expensive, but not terrible if you reload or don't mind the cost.
Go with .223/5.56.

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+1 on the above.

Posted: 3/28/2015 4:47:32 PM EDT

[#6]

Thanks guys...223 wylde it is. Now looking at the Rock River Arms ATH upper. Really like the JP stuff, but I can't seem to find anywhere that just sells a complete upper. If you have any links, that would be good. I am taking my time with this build, and doing it the way I want...this will be handed down to my son, and on down to my granddaughter someday, so I really want to get parts that last.

Posted: 3/29/2015 9:34:41 PM EDT

[#7]

After seeing the abuse on you tube that the ARAK 21 can take I am VERY impressed. Not that I would ever intentionally abuse it that way. More expensive than most other options, and not sure how long they have been around...do they have the "staying" power if something goes wrong, and parts availability is a concern..any thoughts?

Thanks again guys.

Posted: 4/26/2015 11:40:18 PM EDT

[#8]

Just ordered my LPK. Along with the standard parts that come in the lower parts kits, I upgraded the following:

Grip: Ergo Tactical Deluxe BLK

Safety Selector: BAD-ASS AMBI Std/ Thin BLK

Trigger: Hiperfire Hipertouch EDT (Enhanced Duty)

Trigger Guard: Spike's Tactical Gen II Billet BLK

Take down/Pivot Pin: Battle Arms Enhanced Pin Set

6-position Mil-Spec Receiver Extension

Milspec Buffer Tube Assembly - 6-Position

Receiver End Plate:Standard Mil-Spec

MAGPUL CTR STOCK Mil-Spec - BLK

Now the only thing left is the upper. Looking for accuracy of say a groundhog out to 250 to 300yrds. Figure a coyote in the same distance. I have nailed groundhogs through the ears at 250 with my Ruger M77 markII in .223, but still want to have the rapid fire. Is it asking too much out of an AR platform to almost have the same accuracy but with faster follow up shots?

Posted: 4/27/2015 2:47:04 AM EDT

[#9]

Looks nice!

Posted: 4/27/2015 8:38:14 AM EDT

[#10]

Thanks, getting pretty excited about finally starting this build!!

Posted: 4/28/2015 8:57:38 AM EDT

[#11]

ken: For shooting rodents and other small game, the 5.56/.223 is the right choice. For larger game, the 6.8 SPC is a much better choice. If you are going to shoot milsurp ammo, then a 5.56 chamber is best, but if you load your own either that or the .223 Wylde is OK too. Most commercial barrels chambered in 5.56 have the longer throat needed for the high pressure military loads like the green tip M855, but in deference to the clean ammo civilians tend to use, the throat diameter is a close fit to the .224" bullets, therefore accuracy is preserved. My 5.56 rifle, with a 20" Green Mountain barrel, is far and away the most accurate rifle I own. It routinely puts 10 rounds into less than an inch at 100 yds from a rest. good luck - CW

Posted: 5/3/2015 3:34:40 PM EDT

[#12]

Finished up the lower last night. A functions tests passed so far.

Posted: 5/3/2015 5:24:12 PM EDT

[#13]

As stated above, you got bad info on the .223/5.56 ban.
It was an attempt at banning (failed) M855 which is a type of 5.56 ammo.

Keep in mind that .223 Wylde is not a caliber, it is a chamber.

The .223 Wylde can handle safely .223 civilian ammo and 5.56 military ammo.
Your .223 bolt gun should never be fed 5.56 ammo....it could cause unsafe high pressures.

Keep your ammo 5.56 separated or have the bolt gun reamed to .223 Wylde.

Because of the above mentioned chamber differences, most all AR barrels are chambered to safely handle 5.56.

Posted: 5/4/2015 1:45:34 PM EDT

[#14]

Since you live in Ohio, were you cannot use the rifle to hunt Deer with and there are likely not too many other large game animals running around. The 5.56 would be a great choice to smoke groundhogs and other pests, but you should consider getting your bolt gun reamed as Direct Drive mentioned, that opens up your ammo choices for that stick and would make it completely compatible with your future AR15.

You don't need a 6.8 or other caliber to do what it sounds like your intentions are for this rifle, and most those other calibers won't shoot as flat as the 5.56 in the first place.

Posted: 5/4/2015 7:50:04 PM EDT

[#15]

Good points, all. I'll stick to the .223 wylde. But if I am understanding you, that round will NOT work in my bolt gun? I was under the impression that the .223 wylde would work in both 5.59 AND .223.?

Posted: 5/4/2015 8:52:36 PM EDT

[#16]

Quote History

Quoted:
Good points, all. I'll stick to the .223 wylde. But if I am understanding you, that round will NOT work in my bolt gun? I was under the impression that the .223 wylde would work in both 5.59 AND .223.?

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.223 Wylde is not the ammo itself it is the chamber. There is no 223 wylde ammo. It's just a more match chambering that will handle both 5.56 and .223. You shouldn't shoot 5.56 in your bolt gun if it is chambered in .223. It is not designed to handle 5.56 pressure.

Posted: 5/4/2015 9:02:39 PM EDT

[#17]

Gottch ya, thanks. Doubt I'll shoot much 5.56, so the .223 bolt gun will most likely stay the same.

Posted: 5/4/2015 10:15:36 PM EDT

[#18]

Straight-walled cartridge rifles in the following calibers: .357 Magnum, .357 Maximum, .38 Special, .375 Super Magnum, .375 Winchester, .38-55, .41 Long Colt, .41 Magnum, .44 Special, .44 Magnum, .444 Marlin, .45 ACP, .45 Colt, .45 Long Colt, .45 Winchester Magnum, .45 Smith & Wesson, .454 Cassull, .460 Smith & Wesson, .45-70, .45-90, .45-110, .475 Linebaugh, .50-70, .50-90, .50-100, .50-110, and .500 Smith & Wesson.
Shotguns and stright-walled cartridge rifles can be loaded with no more than three shells in the chamber and magazine combined.

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I was going to recommend a .50 Beowulf since it can be run from an AR, but its not on the above list of approved cartridges for deer in Ohio.

When I moved from OH, it was still a strictly no-rifle-hunting policy, rifled shotgun slugs and black-powder only.

Now I'd get a lever-action .45-70 or .45 Long Colt for deer in Ohio.

Posted: 5/4/2015 11:22:14 PM EDT

[#19]

Quote History

Quoted:
Good points, all. I'll stick to the .223 wylde. But if I am understanding you, that round will NOT work in my bolt gun? I was under the impression that the .223 wylde would work in both 5.59 AND .223.?

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Just talking dimensions here, not pressures etc. I'm not an expert. In fact, I barely know any of this stuff.

5.56 NATO is a specific shape of loaded cartridge, with a specific RANGE (a very tight range) of acceptable dimensions for chambers in guns.

.223 Remington is a specific shape of loaded cartridge, with a specific RANGE (a very tight range, that mostly corresponds to 5.56 NATO) of acceptable dimensions for chambers in guns.

.223 Wylde is a chamber shape that accommodates both 5.56 NATO and .223 Remington cartridges.

.223 Wylde is not a specific shape of loaded cartridge.

Posted: 5/5/2015 12:01:26 AM EDT

[#20]

Are you going to be using a suppressor? If not then go with 223 Wylde / 5.56 for your first build. 300 blackout is a fun and a hard hitting round but unless you reload, it can be expensive. If you were like me I built a 300 blackout for my second SBR build and then started reloading 300. I had thousands of empty 5.56 carts to convert but it was fun!

I would not worry about common 223 ammo being banned, if it happens then hell will freeze over and the country will fall apart.. dogs and cats will be living together having puppens and all kind of scary end of the world stuff

Posted: 5/5/2015 7:32:15 AM EDT

[#21]

Quote History

Quoted:

Just talking dimensions here, not pressures etc. I'm not an expert. In fact, I barely know any of this stuff.

5.56 NATO is a specific shape of loaded cartridge, with a specific RANGE (a very tight range) of acceptable dimensions for chambers in guns.

.223 Remington is a specific shape of loaded cartridge, with a specific RANGE (a very tight range, that mostly corresponds to 5.56 NATO) of acceptable dimensions for chambers in guns.

.223 Wylde is a chamber shape that accommodates both 5.56 NATO and .223 Remington cartridges.

.223 Wylde is not a specific shape of loaded cartridge.

View Quote View All Quotes

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Quote History

Quoted:

Quoted:
Good points, all. I'll stick to the .223 wylde. But if I am understanding you, that round will NOT work in my bolt gun? I was under the impression that the .223 wylde would work in both 5.59 AND .223.?

Just talking dimensions here, not pressures etc. I'm not an expert. In fact, I barely know any of this stuff.

5.56 NATO is a specific shape of loaded cartridge, with a specific RANGE (a very tight range) of acceptable dimensions for chambers in guns.

.223 Remington is a specific shape of loaded cartridge, with a specific RANGE (a very tight range, that mostly corresponds to 5.56 NATO) of acceptable dimensions for chambers in guns.

.223 Wylde is a chamber shape that accommodates both 5.56 NATO and .223 Remington cartridges.

.223 Wylde is not a specific shape of loaded cartridge.

I'm no expert either, beyond my armchair, but SFAIK, the outside dimensions of all three cartridges are identical, although military cases may have thicker walls and heads. The terms 5.56, .223 Remington and .223 Wylde refer to the chamber (not cartridge) dimensions, primarily the throat and leade. Further, military ammo intended for 5.56 chambers is typically loaded hotter than factory ammo marked .223 Remington. The chamber dimensions aft of the mouth of the cartridge case are nearly identical for all three reamer types, with the 5.56 being slightly larger in the case neck area, presumably for dirty ammo.

The main differences among the three are: The 5.56 chamber has a longer and larger ID throat than the .223. The longer freebore mitigates the higher pressures of the hot military loads by letting the bullet get going before it hits the leade, the tapered start of the lands. See drawing below, or check Google images, for the specifics.

The .223 Wylde chamber apparently has a throat that is longer than that used for the .223 Remington, but shorter than the military 5.56 chamber, so it can accommodate military ammo without compromising too much accuracy. Note that top NRA highpower shooters use the .223 chamber almost exclusively. On the other hand, my 5.56 chambered rifle is extremely accurate, so go figure. - CW

]

Posted: 5/5/2015 10:35:55 AM EDT

[#22]

If your looking for more down range performance and stick to the .233/5.56 parent case and will be/ or are a reloader
you can look to any of the following calibers/rounds:

6x45, 25-223, 6.5 PCC, .277 Wolverine, .300 BLK, or 7.62x40 WT

The 6.5 PCC and the .277 Wolverine will get you the best overall range/performance (and projectile selection) while the
7.62x40 WT will get you the most muzzle energy (although not by much vs. the 6.5mm PCC [accurate to 600 meters
and beyond]). The 6x45 is the easiest to reload for but does not add all that much to the power factor vs. the 5.56mm
round...They all require just a quick barrel change for the most part along with your dies (although many of the rounds
listed offer factory ammo) and use the same mags and components as the .223/5.56...

JMHO.

Good luck.

Posted: 5/5/2015 4:29:01 PM EDT

[#23]

Quote History

Quoted:
If your looking for more down range performance and stick to the .233/5.56 parent case and will be/ or are a reloader
you can look to any of the following calibers/rounds:

6x45, 25-223, 6.5 PCC, .277 Wolverine, .300 BLK, or 7.62x40 WT

The 6.5 PCC and the .277 Wolverine will get you the best overall range/performance (and projectile selection) while the
7.62x40 WT will get you the most muzzle energy (although not by much vs. the 6.5mm PCC [accurate to 600 meters
and beyond]). The 6x45 is the easiest to reload for but does not add all that much to the power factor vs. the 5.56mm
round...They all require just a quick barrel change for the most part along with your dies (although many of the rounds
listed offer factory ammo) and use the same mags and components as the .223/5.56...

JMHO.

Good luck.

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The OP intends to smoke ground hogs and yotes, why mess with exotic/expensive/wildcat/hard to find calibers when a 5.56.223 will toast'em just fine?

Posted: 5/5/2015 9:30:51 PM EDT

[#24]

Ok...will order one of these tomorrow.

This is from MAS Defense
..(http://www.shop.masdefense.com/16-556-223-BARRELED-UPPER-YANKEE-HILL-125-TODD-JARRETT-165YTJRBU.htm) with options below:
1/2 x 28 Flash Hiders / Brakes: YHM285C2 - YHM Phantom Flash Hider
16" 5.56 / .223 Barrel Selection: 162W8STFBBL-SS 16" .223 Wylde 1x8 Straight Fluted 416R Stainless
Upper Receiver Option: SP223UPR - Seekins SP223 Billet Upper Receiver
WMD NICKEL BORON COMPLETE M16 BOLT CARRIER GROUP 5.56 & 300 BLK
FORGED CHARGING HANDLE WITH AMBI TACTICAL LATCH
Waiting on final price.

This is from Bravo Company USA:
(http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=BCM-URG-MID16-SS410-SDMR13&CartID=1) with...
BCG and Charging Handle Package:BCM® BCG and BCMGUNFIGHTER™ Ambidextrous Charging Handle
Muzzle Device:Free BCM® Mod 0 Compensator
,

Price is close, depending on what MAS charges for the build...but I hear good things about Bravo Company. I like the fact that the MAS barrel is .223 wylde and not just .223/5.56 (and the bling factor of the fluted barrel,lol) ...but really do not know how good the barrel is compared to the Bravo one.....

These are the 2 choices...what are your opinions? One of these will be mine, or at least ordered tomorrow. Thanks for all the help, and if I broke any rules posting links, I do apologize, I am used to Triumph Street Sriple forums.

Posted: 5/5/2015 10:50:10 PM EDT

[#25]

Check out Raineer arms select barrels. Some of the best for the price.

Posted: 5/6/2015 11:19:45 PM EDT

[#26]

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Quoted:

...
I'm not an expert. In fact, I barely know any of this stuff.
...

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"A man's got to know his limitations..."

(edited because it keeps telling me I'm not allowed to post over 2000 characters)

Short version: know the gun in front of you and what can go wrong. I'm still assembling my first AR. In fact, right now there are 2 piles of parts and assembly is still in the "when will I have the time" planning stages...

I'm going back to lurking now...

Posted: 5/7/2015 6:20:43 PM EDT

[#27]

BCM SS410 16" Mid Length Upper Receiver Group w/ Troy SDMR13" Handguard 1/8 Twist

[BCG and Charging Handle Package:BCM® BCG and BCMGUNFIGHTER™ Ambidextrous Charging Handle]

[Muzzle Device:Free BCM® Mod 0 Compensator (Installed)]

Ordered and on the way!!!! Now on to the glass....

Posted: 5/10/2015 2:08:22 PM EDT

[#28]

Looks like the upper will be here Tuesday. I ordered the Vortex 1-4x24 Crossfire II with the SWFA S.S.A.L.T. 30mm Scope Mount, not sure when that will get here. I also ordered a 9" - 13" Tactical Quicklock EZ Pivot & PAN TipTop® Picatinny Mount Bipods, Extendable, Folding, with Sling-attached Hole by Peleton Technology. This will be here Wednesday.

Now for ammo...and time.

Based on what I have done so far, I think (hope) my first build SHOULD be a great shooting gun.What do you guys think?

Posted: 5/10/2015 2:39:51 PM EDT

[#29]

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Quoted:
Looks like the upper will be here Tuesday. I ordered ...snip;...a 9" - 13" Tactical Quicklock EZ Pivot & PAN TipTop® Picatinny Mount Bipod, Extendable, Folding, with Sling-attached Hole by Peleton Technology. This will be here Wednesday.

Now for ammo...and time.

Based on what I have done so far, I think (hope) my first build SHOULD be a great shooting gun.What do you guys think?

View Quote

Good choice, Ken. Because of its peculiar shape, the AR rifle is not ideal for shooting from sand bags. My benchrest results improved substantially when I started using a bipod. I learned the heavier-built models are best and attachment via a P rail is superior to using those little sling studs - more stability. I still use a rear bag, but the front end is on a UTG bipod. Cheap and heavy, but effective. See the article "Bugholes from a Bipod" for the gory details on technique. - CW

http://www.6mmbr.com/TacticalFroggyA1.html

Posted: 5/10/2015 5:36:00 PM EDT

[#30]

Quote History

Quoted:
After seeing the abuse on you tube that the ARAK 21 can take I am VERY impressed. Not that I would ever intentionally abuse it that way. More expensive than most other options, and not sure how long they have been around...do they have the "staying" power if something goes wrong, and parts availability is a concern..any thoughts?

Thanks again guys.

View Quote

We're around for the long haul!

To answer your questions:
1. The ARAK has been in active production for about 3 years.
2. We keep a plethora of spare parts available at all times for immediate shipment.
3. Faxon is not just the ARAK, we have many products and are growing quickly so I think we'll be here for a bit. ;)

Let us know if you have any questions!

Posted: 5/24/2015 5:22:15 PM EDT

[#31]

Need help. Gun runs for 3 rounds perfectly. Then buffer spring seems to jump over the detent. Have to take buffer tube off to take gun down and fix. 3 to 4 rounds later, same thing. Other than that, this thing is dead on at 50 yards. And the feel of the trigger is AMAZING. I am on a phone, so searching is a pain, so advice or a link would be great. Thanks guys,

Posted: 5/24/2015 7:22:18 PM EDT

[#32]

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Quoted:
Need help. Gun runs for 3 rounds perfectly. Then buffer spring seems to jump over the detent. Have to take buffer tube off to take gun down and fix. 3 to 4 rounds later, same thing. Other than that, this thing is dead on at 50 yards. And the feel of the trigger is AMAZING. I am on a phone, so searching is a pain, so advice or a link would be great. Thanks guys,

View Quote

First we have heard of this one! What detent are you using?

Remove your buffer from the tube while shooting

Posted: 5/24/2015 8:36:42 PM EDT

[#33]

Ended up going with the BCM upper, due to costs. The buffer is standard mil-spec. Once this malfunction happens, I need to remove the stock and tube, because the rear take down will not work. It will slide out, but the spring prevents the gun from breaking down.

Posted: 5/24/2015 8:38:10 PM EDT

[#34]

Quote History

Quoted:
Ended up going with the BCM upper, due to costs. The buffer is standard mil-spec. Once this malfunction happens, I need to remove the stock and tube, because the rear take down will not work. It will slide out, but the spring prevents the gun from breaking down.

View Quote

Whoops! Thought you were referring to an ARAK.

Too many threads to keep straight!

Posted: 5/24/2015 8:51:41 PM EDT

[#35]

After being home an back on the computer, I did a Google search and found that a lot of guys do not even use the buffer detentes. They use their thumb to hold the spring in the tube wile disassembling the gun. Any thoughts on this?

Posted: 5/24/2015 9:47:23 PM EDT

[#36]

Quote History

Quoted:

Whoops! Thought you were referring to an ARAK.

Too many threads to keep straight!

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Quoted:

Quoted:
Ended up going with the BCM upper, due to costs. The buffer is standard mil-spec. Once this malfunction happens, I need to remove the stock and tube, because the rear take down will not work. It will slide out, but the spring prevents the gun from breaking down.

Whoops! Thought you were referring to an ARAK.

Too many threads to keep straight!

No problem, thanks for trying and the fast responses.I'm not (yet) a costumer, and the costumer service is awesome!! .I do plane on doing a .300 blackout next year..and I am still in love with the Arak system so perhaps I can go that route then. Right now, though I just wanna get this thing running.

Posted: 5/24/2015 9:54:31 PM EDT

[#37]

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Quoted:

No problem, thanks for trying and the fast responses.I'm not (yet) a costumer, and the costumer service is awesome!! .I do plane on doing a .300 blackout next year..and I am still in love with the Arak system so perhaps I can go that route then. Right now, though I just wanna get this thing running.

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Quote History

Quoted:

Quoted:
Ended up going with the BCM upper, due to costs. The buffer is standard mil-spec. Once this malfunction happens, I need to remove the stock and tube, because the rear take down will not work. It will slide out, but the spring prevents the gun from breaking down.

Whoops! Thought you were referring to an ARAK.

Too many threads to keep straight!

No problem, thanks for trying and the fast responses.I'm not (yet) a costumer, and the costumer service is awesome!! .I do plane on doing a .300 blackout next year..and I am still in love with the Arak system so perhaps I can go that route then. Right now, though I just wanna get this thing running.

Its a pleasure to be of assistance, either way!

Off the top of my head and based on your symptoms it could be a few things.

1. Your detent is not tall enough or spring is not strong enough. (Replace with another new one).
2. Your buffer is too small. (Replace with another new one).
3. Your bolt carrier is too short (This would be highly unusual. Even if the buffer is not captured by the pin, you should still be able to take down the rifle. If it does jam again, you dont have to take the buffer tube off. Pull the charging handle back until the bolt carrier has the buffer all the way clear of the upper. Press upwards. Note- the buffer will fly forward when you do this and likely will be caught by the hammer).

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