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Posted: 2/26/2015 11:44:09 PM EDT
I want to buy this lower build kit:

http://www.andersonrifles.com/product/anderson-lower-build-kit/

to finish a stripped lower receiver, but I have no clue what they are referring to when they say it has an “M16 trigger.”

Would this kit be legal for a Californian (besides the fact that I would need to substitute the magazine release for a bullet button?)

Thanks.
Link Posted: 2/27/2015 12:13:38 AM EDT
[#1]
On an M16 trigger, the slot for the disconnector goes out the back of the trigger, on a semi trigger it's enclosed.
Link Posted: 2/27/2015 3:29:46 AM EDT
[#2]
Thanks.

I found this thread on another forum that seems to indicate that M16 trigger group parts would be illegal:

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=414582

So I guess the next question is: why is Anderson Manufacturing selling this kit?
Link Posted: 2/27/2015 5:20:15 AM EDT
[#3]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Thanks.

I found this thread on another forum that seems to indicate that M16 trigger group parts would be illegal:

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=414582

So I guess the next question is: why is Anderson Manufacturing selling this kit?
View Quote


If you look at their site, Anderson sells LE guns so I'd assume they have the licenses and capacity to make machine-guns.  Thus the auto trigger.  Although the disconnector and hammer are not auto parts (the hammer is actually a lightweight looking hammer, odd).
Link Posted: 2/27/2015 5:30:58 AM EDT
[#4]
I thought a pic might help:
Link Posted: 2/27/2015 6:06:24 AM EDT
[#5]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Thanks.

I found this thread on another forum that seems to indicate that M16 trigger group parts would be illegal:

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=414582

So I guess the next question is: why is Anderson Manufacturing selling this kit?
View Quote


Probably Anderson got a cheap price on M16 triggers so they put them in their kit. Since they are out of stock anyway, I would skip Anderson and find another kit....there are a lot of them out there with all semi auto parts.
Link Posted: 2/27/2015 11:42:39 AM EDT
[#6]
If the hammer is bobbed as in the picture it is NOT an M16 trigger kit. No way for a full auto disconnector to function with it, the hook is gone.

Further, there is no full auto disconnector or pin to mount it, which would require the corresponding hole in the lower, ie a full auto lower.

A kit can be for semi use with all full auto parts, without a disconnector and pin it's considered ATF legal. CA laws can be different. I have a AR15 with all full auto parts - semi lower, no disconnector - and so do tens of thousands of other gun owners. And that includes a full auto bolt carrier.

My pistol built has a stainless bobbed hammer kit, and it's actually a huge step up in trigger pull. Those GI parts built to a low price aren't all that, yet the pistol kit was half the price.

Be careful about the "M16" designation as some copy writers like to puff up the hype, and remember that a "M16" trigger means exactly that, just the part your finger works on sticking out of the lower. It doesn't mean the rest of the kit is "M16" and it certainly isn't with a bobbed hammer.
Link Posted: 2/27/2015 12:18:43 PM EDT
[#7]
And before anybody asks...even with a full M16 FCG your AR15 will still ONLY shoot semi. Just installing those parts will NOT turn it into a full auto weapon.
Link Posted: 2/27/2015 12:34:53 PM EDT
[#8]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
And before anybody asks...even with a full M16 FCG your AR15 will still ONLY shoot semi. Just installing those parts will NOT turn it into a full auto weapon.
View Quote


Yes, it will. It will fire full auto out of battery and possibly KA-BOOM on you. Its full auto slam firing. It's not a true select fire weapon. It's a jimmy rigged backwoods toothless hick mickey mouse job that could get you in lots of trouble. But yes, a "full house" of M-16 FCG parts in your semiautomatic AR-15 will make it go bang-bang-bang. -W

ETA: OP for legal advice the only place to go is to a gun attorney.

It's well known, many older AR's came with some or all M16 parts in varying combinations. These are legal weapons that just happened to use M16 parts. Still today brand new in the box Colt 9MM carbines come with a full auto M16 hammer. All Colts now come with an M16 bolt carrier.  So if a parts kit had just the M16 trigger in it I don't think that shows any intent to build an illegal machinegun. If you were buying M16 FCG parts that could allow your AR to shoot full auto either by slam firing or by select fire that could be a problem. If I were you I would simply look for a different parts kit. There's no reason for you to use an M16 trigger, it would change/benefit nothing on your rifle. -W
Link Posted: 2/27/2015 2:38:02 PM EDT
[#9]
Perhaps the trigger in that kit is full-auto, who knows, all the other parts they're showing are semi.  

Unless Cali has some weird law concerning this, there's nothing wrong with using the configuration as shown. It has no full-auto function.  

I don't know why Anderson would make that odd disclaimer
Link Posted: 2/27/2015 3:05:11 PM EDT
[#10]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Yes, it will. It will fire full auto out of battery and possibly KA-BOOM on you.
View Quote


Slam-fire, maybe, kaboom, no. The design of the AR-15/M-16 bolt, carrier, and firing pin does not allow the firing pin to protrude past the face of the bolt until after the bolt has rotated to the fully locked position. It's explicitly intended to prevent any possibility of the firing pin striking the primer with the bolt unlocked. The only way you'd get a kaboom is if one or more of these components was way out of spec. In which case shooting standard semi-auto would be dangerous as well.

A FCG that allows slamfires is a legal issue, but not a safety one.
Link Posted: 2/27/2015 3:28:32 PM EDT
[#11]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


Slam-fire, maybe, kaboom, no. The design of the AR-15/M-16 bolt, carrier, and firing pin does not allow the firing pin to protrude past the face of the bolt until after the bolt has rotated to the fully locked position. It's explicitly intended to prevent any possibility of the firing pin striking the primer with the bolt unlocked. The only way you'd get a kaboom is if one or more of these components was way out of spec. In which case shooting standard semi-auto would be dangerous as well.

A FCG that allows slamfires is a legal issue, but not a safety one.
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Yes, it will. It will fire full auto out of battery and possibly KA-BOOM on you.


Slam-fire, maybe, kaboom, no. The design of the AR-15/M-16 bolt, carrier, and firing pin does not allow the firing pin to protrude past the face of the bolt until after the bolt has rotated to the fully locked position. It's explicitly intended to prevent any possibility of the firing pin striking the primer with the bolt unlocked. The only way you'd get a kaboom is if one or more of these components was way out of spec. In which case shooting standard semi-auto would be dangerous as well.

A FCG that allows slamfires is a legal issue, but not a safety one.


Slamfire

"Aside from the dangers of any accidental discharge, slamfires present the particular risk of an out-of-battery detonation. This occurs when a round is fired before it is completely secured in the chamber, and can cause a breech explosion, leading to the firearm being destroyed or damaged, as well as potentially injuring the operator and bystanders."


Link Posted: 2/27/2015 9:34:14 PM EDT
[#12]
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Quoted:
I thought a pic might help:
http://www.quarterbore.com/images/ar15m16.gif
View Quote

Thanks for posting the pic.  It looks like the cutout at the back of the trigger allows the FA selector to depress the tang of the FA disconnector so that it does not engage the hammer when the bolt carrier re-cocks it.  I still haven't figured out what the extra bits on the hammer do or how the FA bolt carrier interacts with it all but it's a step forward.  Somehow I did not have the same curiosity 40 years ago when I had the opportunity to stare at the guts of my M-16 and fully understand its operation.  I guess it was just too damn hot.
Link Posted: 2/27/2015 9:57:37 PM EDT
[#13]
b
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

Thanks for posting the pic.  It looks like the cutout at the back of the trigger allows the FA selector to depress the tang of the FA disconnector so that it does not engage the hammer when the bolt carrier re-cocks it.  I still haven't figured out what the extra bits on the hammer do or how the FA bolt carrier interacts with it all but it's a step forward.  Somehow I did not have the same curiosity 40 years ago when I had the opportunity to stare at the guts of my M-16 and fully understand its operation.  I guess it was just too damn hot.
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Quoted:
Quoted:
I thought a pic might help:
http://www.quarterbore.com/images/ar15m16.gif

Thanks for posting the pic.  It looks like the cutout at the back of the trigger allows the FA selector to depress the tang of the FA disconnector so that it does not engage the hammer when the bolt carrier re-cocks it.  I still haven't figured out what the extra bits on the hammer do or how the FA bolt carrier interacts with it all but it's a step forward.  Somehow I did not have the same curiosity 40 years ago when I had the opportunity to stare at the guts of my M-16 and fully understand its operation.  I guess it was just too damn hot.


Hi,
You are correct in that the selector cam depresses the disconnector tail to disengage it in full auto mode in a select fire M16. The cutout in the back of the M16 trigger is to allow for the longer M16 disconnector tail and the selector cam. The extra J hook on the back of the M16 hammer is what catches on the auto sear only, (when it's cocked by the bolt carrier going rearwards, it's not caught on the disconnector if the trigger is held because the disconector has been depressed by the selector lever cam) when the selector is turned to auto and the trigger is held down (semi-autos do not have an auto sear) until the bolt carrier comes forward enough to trip the auto sear and release the hammer on time. (in full battery) and the next round is fired and the cycle is repeated.  -W

ETA: Notice on the picture it shows both hammers with a "J pin" that is the small J spring running up the middle of the hammer to hold on to the hammer pin The M16 hammer also has a " J hook " (what catches the auto sear) an Ar15 hammer doesn't.  -W
Link Posted: 2/28/2015 12:10:52 AM EDT
[#14]
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Quoted:
"Aside from the dangers of any accidental discharge, slamfires present the particular risk of an out-of-battery detonation. This occurs when a round is fired before it is completely secured in the chamber, and can cause a breech explosion, leading to the firearm being destroyed or damaged, as well as potentially injuring the operator and bystanders."
View Quote


Wikipedia generalities notwithstanding, it's still not possible for the firing pin of an AR to protrude past the bolt face and contact the primer until the bolt has rotated into the fully locked position, unless you have some seriously out-of-spec parts.

It's easy enough to check. Pull the BCG out of the rifle, and pull the bolt to the forward (unlocked) position in the carrier. Put your finger on the back of the firing pin to press it all the way forward. Then with your other hand, slowly press the bolt back into the carrier, while continuing to press the firing pin forward. The bolt should rotate to the fully locked position before the firing pin pokes out of the hole in the center of the bolt. If so, a slamfire-induced out-of-battery detonation is impossilble, because the firing pin can't contact the primer until after the bolt has locked into the barrel locking lugs.

OTOH, if the firing pin starts protruding out of the hole before the bolt is in the fully-locked position, you have some major out-of-spec parts, and the gun isn't safe to fire even in standard semi-auto.
Link Posted: 2/28/2015 12:19:49 AM EDT
[#15]
Tell that to the Colt, MFG.Co.  the company that changed fat head firing pins to flat head and then modern due to slam fires by firing pin inertia alone. -W
Link Posted: 2/28/2015 12:35:40 AM EDT
[#16]
the kit (anderson) as pictured would not produce a slamfire. For that you would also need a M16 disconector and a M16 selector.  The only thing that the m16 triger would allow you to do that the ar15 trigger would not is to "allow" the use of a m16 disconector.
Put in a lower this kit would not act any diferently than any other lower parts kit.
Link Posted: 2/28/2015 12:43:59 AM EDT
[#17]
There are several ways to produce the slam firing malfunction. You don't need an M16 selector or disconnector. All you need is for your AR-15 disconnector to malfunction. this can happen if the spring is upside down, ithe spring is missing or the disconnector is absent. So, you wouldn't necessarily need other M16 parts to make this kit with an M16 trigger malfunction and slam fire. So that's not the "only" way it could happen. -W
Link Posted: 2/28/2015 2:05:51 AM EDT
[#18]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
There are several ways to produce the slam firing malfunction. You don't need an M16 selector or disconnector. All you need is for your AR-15 disconnector to malfunction. this can happen if the spring is upside down, the spring is missing or the disconnector is absent. So, you wouldn't necessarily need other M16 parts to make this kit with an M16 trigger malfunction and slam fire. So that's not the "only" way it could happen. -W
View Quote


While true that there are other ways to cause a slam fire, the use of a m16 trigger vs an ar15 trigger does not increase the likelihood of a disconnector malfunction, a missing spring, or the disconnector being absent.  The only difference in the two triggers is that the ar15 trigger has been modified so that it won't accept an m16 disconnector, a m16 trigger will accept an ar15 disconnector without any problems.

And even if you were to put in a m16 disconnector you would also need a m16 selector (to engage the m16 disconnector) to create the condition for a trigger group related slam fire to occur.

It should be noted that I'm refering to a m16 trigger like the one included in the orignal post NOT a 3 round burst trigger. that is a different animal all togeather.

Theo
Link Posted: 2/28/2015 9:52:22 AM EDT
[#19]
IF you use ANY full auto parts and IF you have the misfortune to have your disconnector stick or fail, it IS possible for the gun to fire "full auto" (though not the way it's designed to fire) through the hammer "following" the bolt.  Timing, spring strengths and rates have to be right, but it's possible.  And if this happens, you ARE now in possession of an unregistered machine gun.  Malfunctions and parts failures are not a defense in court.

I would not buy ANY full auto FCG parts to put in a Title I (semi auto) AR.  

I'm not a lawyer, didn't stay at a Holiday Inn Express, but I AM allergic to institutional diets and limited sunlight on alternate Tuesdays...
Link Posted: 2/28/2015 4:04:19 PM EDT
[#20]
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Quoted:
There are several ways to produce the slam firing malfunction. You don't need an M16 selector or disconnector. All you need is for your AR-15 disconnector to malfunction. this can happen if the spring is upside down, ithe spring is missing or the disconnector is absent. So, you wouldn't necessarily need other M16 parts to make this kit with an M16 trigger malfunction and slam fire. So that's not the "only" way it could happen. -W
View Quote

A disconnector malfunction does not produce a true slam fire, since the hammer is actually held back for a short period of time by the malfunctioning disconnector before being released.

The malfunction ATF is able to reproduce when using a full auto FCG and carrier in a semi, and about which it has issued cautions, is hammer-follow.  In conjunction with soft-primered commercial ammunition hammer follow can result in the next round firing upon lockup sometimes.  If ATF can get the rifle to do it just once, then they classify it as a machinegun, and claim that the presence of the full auto parts as proof of intent to create said machinegun, rather than it being a simple malfunction.

There are indeed other ways to get a true slam fire out of the AR platform, but per CoC, I won't go into those details.
Link Posted: 2/28/2015 4:30:51 PM EDT
[#21]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

A disconnector malfunction does not produce a true slam fire, since the hammer is actually held back for a short period of time by the malfunctioning disconnector before being released.

The malfunction ATF is able to reproduce when using a full auto FCG and carrier in a semi, and about which it has issued cautions, is hammer-follow.  In conjunction with soft-primered commercial ammunition hammer follow can result in the next round firing upon lockup sometimes.  If ATF can get the rifle to do it just once, then they classify it as a machinegun, and claim that the presence of the full auto parts as proof of intent to create said machinegun, rather than it being a simple malfunction.

There are indeed other ways to get a true slam fire out of the AR platform, but per CoC, I won't go into those details.
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Quoted:
Quoted:
There are several ways to produce the slam firing malfunction. You don't need an M16 selector or disconnector. All you need is for your AR-15 disconnector to malfunction. this can happen if the spring is upside down, ithe spring is missing or the disconnector is absent. So, you wouldn't necessarily need other M16 parts to make this kit with an M16 trigger malfunction and slam fire. So that's not the "only" way it could happen. -W

A disconnector malfunction does not produce a true slam fire, since the hammer is actually held back for a short period of time by the malfunctioning disconnector before being released.

The malfunction ATF is able to reproduce when using a full auto FCG and carrier in a semi, and about which it has issued cautions, is hammer-follow.  In conjunction with soft-primered commercial ammunition hammer follow can result in the next round firing upon lockup sometimes.  If ATF can get the rifle to do it just once, then they classify it as a machinegun, and claim that the presence of the full auto parts as proof of intent to create said machinegun, rather than it being a simple malfunction.

There are indeed other ways to get a true slam fire out of the AR platform, but per CoC, I won't go into those details.


A disconnector malfunction absolutely causes a slam fire. That's what a slam fire is, a hammer follow down release. It's only the disconnector that catches the hammer and does not allow it to go forward "automatically" when the trigger is held depressed. The disconnector does not catch the hammer at all it iin a slam fire it malfunctions by stated methods. -W


ETA: You take just the disconnector spring out of your AR-15 semi-automatic rifle with no M16 parts in it and go fire it. You tell me what happens. -W
ETA: I'll tell you exactly what happens. The rifle will shoot full auto only with the selector lever set to semi or fire. Then tell me that's not a disconnector caused slam fire. -W
ETA: Colt also has a few measures to prevent follow home slam fires don't they? Notched carriers, notched hammers. Why would they have to prevent them if they didn't even happen? -W
Link Posted: 2/28/2015 5:09:32 PM EDT
[#22]
No, a slam fire is when the bolt goes forward and the firing pin BY ITSELF goes/stays forward enough to set off the primer.  Hammer follow is hammer follow.

Load a round with the primer too high in the pocket and with the safety on let your AR strip it from the magazine.  If it discharges, THAT is a slam fire.  Literally the bolt "slamming forward" causes the round to fire.
Link Posted: 2/28/2015 5:15:26 PM EDT
[#23]
I'm not going to play word games. My basic understanding of the Ar-15 and M-16 fire control group is that when the hammer is allowed to move freely during the bolt carrier cycling without being caught and held back by the trigger sear, the disconnector sear or an auto sear, that's a slam fire. -W
Link Posted: 2/28/2015 9:05:47 PM EDT
[#24]
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Quoted:


Slam-fire, maybe, kaboom, no. The design of the AR-15/M-16 bolt, carrier, and firing pin does not allow the firing pin to protrude past the face of the bolt until after the bolt has rotated to the fully locked position. It's explicitly intended to prevent any possibility of the firing pin striking the primer with the bolt unlocked. The only way you'd get a kaboom is if one or more of these components was way out of spec. In which case shooting standard semi-auto would be dangerous as well.

A FCG that allows slamfires is a legal issue, but not a safety one.
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Yes, it will. It will fire full auto out of battery and possibly KA-BOOM on you.


Slam-fire, maybe, kaboom, no. The design of the AR-15/M-16 bolt, carrier, and firing pin does not allow the firing pin to protrude past the face of the bolt until after the bolt has rotated to the fully locked position. It's explicitly intended to prevent any possibility of the firing pin striking the primer with the bolt unlocked. The only way you'd get a kaboom is if one or more of these components was way out of spec. In which case shooting standard semi-auto would be dangerous as well.

A FCG that allows slamfires is a legal issue, but not a safety one.


Military manual claims it can happen by forgetting to put the cam pin in. The bolt does not have to rotate to lock in. I can't imagine that would happen but who knows.
Also it can happen if something sticks to the bolt face and the bolt acts like it has a fixed firing pin. Some posted a pic years back where there's KB'd from a piece of primer from the last round stuck to the bolt face.
Link Posted: 3/9/2015 10:46:39 PM EDT
[#25]
Looks like will go with this lower part kit:

http://www.andersonrifles.com/product/am-556-calfornia-compliant-lower-parts-kit/

and order the stock assembly separately:

http://www.andersonrifles.com/product/6-position-butt-stock-assembly/

even though purchasing the items separately is $40 more than the kit I originally linked to.
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