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Posted: 9/18/2014 3:24:10 AM EDT
Thinking of trying my hand at a 80% lower. Where to go, what to do for info on legalities and compliance issues?
Link Posted: 9/18/2014 5:57:05 AM EDT
[#1]
What are you asking? As long as you're not making an MG or suppressor without a tax stamp you have nothing to worry about. Just finish it, build it, and shoot it.
Link Posted: 9/18/2014 5:58:05 AM EDT
[#2]
Google or search here.



Nothing's really different, except you pick the markings (or lack thereof). If you choose to mark, you must meet specs. You also cannot complete one with the intent to sell it. It may be sold later if you decide you don't want it anymore.



Have you done research on physically completing one? That's much more complicated.
Link Posted: 9/18/2014 6:46:58 AM EDT
[#3]
Sportsman guide is selling them for $150 each. I can buy a finished Aero prec. Stripped lower for $90.
I don't see the upside.
Link Posted: 9/18/2014 7:54:48 AM EDT
[#4]
Anderson 80% $45

there might be coupons out there for free shipping.
Link Posted: 9/18/2014 9:59:18 AM EDT
[#5]
Quoted:
Thinking of trying my hand at a 80% lower. Where to go, what to do for info on legalities and compliance issues?
View Quote


Don't mill it to accept M16 FCG parts.

There's your compliance.
Link Posted: 9/18/2014 10:29:26 AM EDT
[#6]
1. a completed lower must be for YOUR personal use only. (others can shoot it with you present, but can not transfer that lower to anyone)
2. you dont NEED any markings of any kind on the completed lower (that goes for serial #'s as well but i at least mark it under the pistol grip in case it is lost or stolen i can identify it)
3. you must be the one to machine the unfinished lower. you can not do it for someone else, and someone else can not do it for you
other than that theres nothing to it really, you can often find 80% lowers in white (unanodized) or anodized for $45-$60 so dont pay an unreasonable amount for one. and also if you are not familiar with milling, get a jig to follow at first.
Link Posted: 9/18/2014 2:14:07 PM EDT
[#7]
Also:

You are not required to put any markings or serial number on your homemade gun.  It is a good idea to do it so that it can be identified by you in the event it is stolen.  I make my 80%ers with color-filled recesses for SAFE & FIRE as shown below.

Link Posted: 9/18/2014 2:55:51 PM EDT
[#8]
IM me if you need specific info.  Depending on where you are in Ohio, I may be able to offer some guidance.  I'm in NEO and I've completed 6 or more.  I have several waiting for winter project time.
Link Posted: 9/18/2014 10:44:53 PM EDT
[#9]
"Don't mill it to accept M16 FCG parts." Which amounts to the pin hols for the auto sear. Otherwise the interior dimensions are the same.

Upside? Yeah, the cost for an 80% doesn't seem to balance with the cost of a finished lower. You are getting less work done and it usually is priced higher. What the vendors are selling for the extra money is the ability to side step the entire FFL system and any record that the lower was sold. And, it ships direct to your doorstep without the delay of passing thru the hands of the FFL.

With a finished lower selling for $50 up, plus FFL fees of $10 to $50 dollars, it's a tossup when you consider the cost to your front door. Each needs to make his own decision for what it's worth to him. Oh - one extra  is that the owner actually does some of the work, so there is job satisfaction involved. If you are wanting to build it yourself, having the lower come direct to you and making it functional is just another step in the process.  There is also the opportunity to have the lower marked uniquely yours - like the SN#'s sold that spell out acronyms or a a character's name - "JACK BAU3R" is legal under your maker name if you want to go that far with the ATF suggestions.

Markings on firearms are only required by licensed makers and have only existed since the passage of the '68 GCA. Plenty of unmarked guns still trade hands with no numbers at all in the collector market, because they were never required at the time of manufacture.

About all it takes is some patience and tools, there are plenty of 80% lowers out there gathering dust waiting their turn to be finished.
Link Posted: 9/19/2014 12:37:13 PM EDT
[#10]
Thanks for the info.

I'm just looking into this just to try something new and pick up some new knowledge/skills. The unregistered part is a bonus. I like building stuff. The cost of tools and a jig doesn't bother me, tools and books are two things you can't have enough of in IMHO. Tactical Machining has them in the white forged for $49.00 and anodized (black IIRC) forged for $59.00 before shipping , so the cost of a 80% lower isn't to bad. The most expensive part about an endeavor like this looks to be a quality jig. Modulus Arms looks to have the best jig to me ( about $149.00 before shippng IIRC ). Basically this just seems cool to me because 1. we can even legally do this, and 2. I think knowing how to do this would just be handy info to me. Tinkering with my guns as long as it's a safe modification is half the fun of gun ownership for me. To be honest I tend to tinker/modify/alter just about everything I own.

I mainly wanted to know if markings and serial #'s were required and if so where and exactly what. The info I found by searching so far was convoluted on this topic. Yeah, I kinda figured if an unregistered machine gun is illegal, building my own would be too (otherwise we'd all be building them right?).

A lot of these companies offering AR15 80% lowers may also offer .308 caliber  80% lowers, 80% 1911 frames, or 1022  80% receivers. Could be alot of fun. If your not into gunsmithing, this isn't likely to be for you. I like learning/doing this sort of thing.
Link Posted: 9/19/2014 12:48:25 PM EDT
[#11]
I have done a couple of these now. I went into them understanding that I was not going to save any money. I happened to have used the TMs and their Jig. I got to learn a lot and have a rifle and a pistol that NO ONE else has because I "made" the Lower . When I see it typed out that sounds so silly but it does feel good to me.
Link Posted: 9/19/2014 6:06:57 PM EDT
[#13]
There's two reasons to build an 80% lower.

1) The enjoyment in the machining process and a true DIY project.

2) Flying under the radar in regards to "Uncle's" nosy  business.

No real downside to either.
Link Posted: 9/19/2014 8:01:09 PM EDT
[#14]
Andersons (like said) ....... 45 bucks and there's free shipping sometimes
Very nice forged part ...... most likly the same exact part many others sell for more ... like the gun shop by me that sells Adersons for 150
Link Posted: 9/23/2014 8:20:16 PM EDT
[#15]
I got two for a c note from ar brick.   blems, but I can't see a blem.  Have one finished and using on new building.
I wanted to fly under the radar.


Link Posted: 10/1/2014 7:44:01 AM EDT
[#16]
Gotta say I chuckled a little at the first few replies. Guys thought I was the man trolling or something by the responses. Perfectly legal endeavor but somehow it's still a trap. Maybe I should wear a tinfoil hat while completeing my lower. If I even decide to do this, wink wink.
Link Posted: 10/1/2014 12:19:31 PM EDT
[#17]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Gotta say I chuckled a little at the first few replies. Guys thought I was the man trolling or something by the responses. Perfectly legal endeavor but somehow it's still a trap. Maybe I should wear a tinfoil hat while completeing my lower. If I even decide to do this, wink wink.
View Quote


I don't think folks thought you were 'the man' as it is a perfectly legal activity with no shenanigans involved.  Actually, all replies seemed very factual.

Personally, I choose not to mark my homemade stuff as it is not a legal requirement.

You can bet your bottom dollar that if the BATFE had jurisdiction over the BIY receiver world, this world would not exist in any recognizable form.
Link Posted: 10/1/2014 4:01:26 PM EDT
[#18]
I have been using the tactical machining pre anodized lowers. Are on sale for 54 bucks they throw in a match upper for 29 tactical machining jig seems to me to be the best I've got theim down to about  an hour on my jet milling machine drill press combo machine
Link Posted: 10/1/2014 7:09:05 PM EDT
[#19]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
"Don't mill it to accept M16 FCG parts." Which amounts to the pin hols for the auto sear. Otherwise the interior dimensions are the same.

Upside? Yeah, the cost for an 80% doesn't seem to balance with the cost of a finished lower. You are getting less work done and it usually is priced higher. What the vendors are selling for the extra money is the ability to side step the entire FFL system and any record that the lower was sold. And, it ships direct to your doorstep without the delay of passing thru the hands of the FFL.

With a finished lower selling for $50 up, plus FFL fees of $10 to $50 dollars, it's a tossup when you consider the cost to your front door. Each needs to make his own decision for what it's worth to him. Oh - one extra  is that the owner actually does some of the work, so there is job satisfaction involved. If you are wanting to build it yourself, having the lower come direct to you and making it functional is just another step in the process.  There is also the opportunity to have the lower marked uniquely yours - like the SN#'s sold that spell out acronyms or a a character's name - "JACK BAU3R" is legal under your maker name if you want to go that far with the ATF suggestions.

Markings on firearms are only required by licensed makers and have only existed since the passage of the '68 GCA. Plenty of unmarked guns still trade hands with no numbers at all in the collector market, because they were never required at the time of manufacture.

About all it takes is some patience and tools, there are plenty of 80% lowers out there gathering dust waiting their turn to be finished.
View Quote


Interior dimensions

Link Posted: 10/1/2014 10:29:41 PM EDT
[#20]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Anderson 80% $45

there might be coupons out there for free shipping.
View Quote

Read the reviews. Numerous people saying various things were not complete.
Link Posted: 10/3/2014 4:37:35 PM EDT
[#21]
Yes, I've been doing my own research. I figured arfcom would be the best resource for info and first timer tips though. Thanks for all the replies fellas. Now it's just a matter of getting the tools together (have most of what I need already fortunately), jig, and lower and have at it. I'll probably go ahead and do the modulus arms route for the jig. I haven't 100% decided at this point on the jig though. It's one of the priciest I've found, but I like the fact it's reusable (unless I really screw it up) and you can finish the lower with commonly available routers with an end mill bit ( that's pretty darn cool IMHO). I just don't have the space for large equipment or the knowledge to use them (or that much money either). I wish I did though, I'd just go ahead and try a raw 0% forging project.

If I in fact I finish my receiver, I'll probably use it to experiment on. Like say experimenting with cerakoat or hydro dipping down the road at some point. There's a ambi bolt release upgrade for traditional mil spec lowers out there (can't remember the companies name at the moment) that requires modifying your lower. The mod doesn't look particularly difficult, but hey if I do screw up, I'll just get another 80% lower and try again. This way I don't wreck my factory finished guns on the first try.

Eh, some people golf... I'd rather spend my time and money tinkering around.
Link Posted: 10/3/2014 5:09:43 PM EDT
[#22]

Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Don't mill it to accept M16 FCG parts.



There's your compliance.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:



Quoted:

Thinking of trying my hand at a 80% lower. Where to go, what to do for info on legalities and compliance issues?




Don't mill it to accept M16 FCG parts.



There's your compliance.
I find it funny that you could make an 80% lower into an open bolt machinegun easier than you can make it into a semi, you wouldn't even have to mill anything.



 
Link Posted: 10/4/2014 12:56:31 AM EDT
[#23]
Ive got the modulas arms jig now. I started with another drill only type but wasnt comfortable doing it that way.

The MA jig is pretty darn nice IMHO. I like how it attaches to the lower. Regardless of which one you go with I would highly suggest going one that you can route out vise using just a drill press. They all seem to be about $150 now for any  of the router style jigs.
Link Posted: 10/5/2014 1:11:36 PM EDT
[#24]
Very fun project may take about four days to complete. Many FY out there,  80% goes from 50 to 70 many out there. make sure is 7075T
Link Posted: 10/5/2014 10:42:32 PM EDT
[#25]
TacCar - you have probably already run across this, but in case you haven't here is a great tutorial on finishing an 80% lower: http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_4/484783_Vader_Spade_s_80__AR_15_build___Milling__Etching__and_Anodizing.html
Link Posted: 11/1/2014 11:40:48 AM EDT
[#26]
Thanks for all the replies and links guys.
Link Posted: 11/1/2014 6:25:48 PM EDT
[#27]
I know this is an older reply in this thread, but............

I find it funny that you could make an 80% lower into an open bolt machinegun easier than you can make it into a semi, you wouldn't even have to mill anything.
View Quote


Ummm, no.  You would have to re-engineer the FCG to hold the bolt open, yet still incorporate an auto sear.   That, or weld a big honkin' weight on the back of the firing pin and hope it doesn't detonate the primer before the bolt locks.  Just causing the hammer to follow the bolt will not an open bolt full auto AR make.

Now, when it comes to weapons that were originally designed as open bolt MGs, yes, it's easier to make them that way than to make them an ATF-OK closed bolt semi-auto.  This does not hold true for guns that were designed to be closed bolt select fire weapons from the beginning.
Link Posted: 11/1/2014 10:53:43 PM EDT
[#28]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
I know this is an older reply in this thread, but............



Ummm, no.  You would have to re-engineer the FCG to hold the bolt open, yet still incorporate an auto sear.   That, or weld a big honkin' weight on the back of the firing pin and hope it doesn't detonate the primer before the bolt locks.  Just causing the hammer to follow the bolt will not an open bolt full auto AR make.

Now, when it comes to weapons that were originally designed as open bolt MGs, yes, it's easier to make them that way than to make them an ATF-OK closed bolt semi-auto.  This does not hold true for guns that were designed to be closed bolt select fire weapons from the beginning.
View Quote View All Quotes
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
I know this is an older reply in this thread, but............

I find it funny that you could make an 80% lower into an open bolt machinegun easier than you can make it into a semi, you wouldn't even have to mill anything.


Ummm, no.  You would have to re-engineer the FCG to hold the bolt open, yet still incorporate an auto sear.   That, or weld a big honkin' weight on the back of the firing pin and hope it doesn't detonate the primer before the bolt locks.  Just causing the hammer to follow the bolt will not an open bolt full auto AR make.

Now, when it comes to weapons that were originally designed as open bolt MGs, yes, it's easier to make them that way than to make them an ATF-OK closed bolt semi-auto.  This does not hold true for guns that were designed to be closed bolt select fire weapons from the beginning.


There is a simple "fix" but It's probably not in anyone's best interests to start a conversation about how to make a cheap illegal machine gun.
Link Posted: 11/2/2014 12:13:24 AM EDT
[#29]


Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:



I know this is an older reply in this thread, but............
Ummm, no.  You would have to re-engineer the FCG to hold the bolt open, yet still incorporate an auto sear.   That, or weld a big honkin' weight on the back of the firing pin and hope it doesn't detonate the primer before the bolt locks.  Just causing the hammer to follow the bolt will not an open bolt full auto AR make.





Now, when it comes to weapons that were originally designed as open bolt MGs, yes, it's easier to make them that way than to make them an ATF-OK closed bolt semi-auto.  This does not hold true for guns that were designed to be closed bolt select fire weapons from the beginning.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:



I know this is an older reply in this thread, but............
I find it funny that you could make an 80% lower into an open bolt machinegun easier than you can make it into a semi, you wouldn't even have to mill anything.






Ummm, no.  You would have to re-engineer the FCG to hold the bolt open, yet still incorporate an auto sear.   That, or weld a big honkin' weight on the back of the firing pin and hope it doesn't detonate the primer before the bolt locks.  Just causing the hammer to follow the bolt will not an open bolt full auto AR make.





Now, when it comes to weapons that were originally designed as open bolt MGs, yes, it's easier to make them that way than to make them an ATF-OK closed bolt semi-auto.  This does not hold true for guns that were designed to be closed bolt select fire weapons from the beginning.
Take a look at the M231.  Forget milling anything into the 80% lower and use the bolt stop as the trigger. A person could place a pin behind the firing pin or use an insert placed inside the carrier stretching from the buffer to the firing pin.  Every time the bolt closes it will go bang.  It would be crude but it would work.
 




Please don't try this unless your an SOT.
Link Posted: 11/2/2014 12:50:29 AM EDT
[#30]
Take a look at the M231. Forget milling anything into the 80% lower and use the bolt stop as the trigger. A person could place a pin behind the firing pin or use an insert placed inside the carrier stretching from the buffer to the firing pin. Every time the bolt closes it will go bang. It would be crude but it would work.
View Quote


An open bolt machine gun holds the bolt to the rear when the trigger is released.  I don't consider a gun that will slam fire until the mag is empty (or the weapon jams) an open bolt machine gun; I call it a malfunctioning firearm.



Link Posted: 11/2/2014 1:01:02 AM EDT
[#31]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
TacCar - you have probably already run across this, but in case you haven't here is a great tutorial on finishing an 80% lower: http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_4/484783_Vader_Spade_s_80__AR_15_build___Milling__Etching__and_Anodizing.html
View Quote



hot

_Vader_Spade_s_80__AR_15_build___Milling__Etching__and_Anodizing.html
Link Posted: 11/2/2014 9:44:03 AM EDT
[#32]

Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
An open bolt machine gun holds the bolt to the rear when the trigger is released.  I don't consider a gun that will slam fire until the mag is empty (or the weapon jams) an open bolt machine gun; I call it a malfunctioning firearm.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:



Take a look at the M231. Forget milling anything into the 80% lower and use the bolt stop as the trigger. A person could place a pin behind the firing pin or use an insert placed inside the carrier stretching from the buffer to the firing pin. Every time the bolt closes it will go bang. It would be crude but it would work.




An open bolt machine gun holds the bolt to the rear when the trigger is released.  I don't consider a gun that will slam fire until the mag is empty (or the weapon jams) an open bolt machine gun; I call it a malfunctioning firearm.
It would be more useable if you put a spring under the bolt catch so it defaulted to holding the bolt open, then put a bad lever on it.

 
Link Posted: 11/4/2014 6:20:51 AM EDT
[#33]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History



I just got one of these and I agree with this suggestion.  Very nice kit.  "SAVE10" is good for 10% off also.
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