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Posted: 4/17/2014 3:44:51 PM EDT
[#1]
Would you trust you life to a poly lower?
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Posted: 4/17/2014 4:02:43 PM EDT
[#2]
I just broke a New Frontier lower taking out the rear pin. The detent pin came out through the side! My hunting pistol is a 300 BO on one for weight, but this makes me not want another one, or risk my life because of inferior materials. I was all gung-ho for them before, and look at it like a glock, but these are no glock that is for sure. A friend of mine ordered up some of the ATI poly lowers, and those are a joke. They felt like they would melt in the sun. The plastic was just that, plastic.
The one you are looking at has the stock built into it, and they have been around a while but I still wouldn't trust it for anything but a range toy. A shop I frequent had a blue one that I picked up. Couldn't bring myself to bring it home even tho she was giving it away for 50$. |
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Posted: 4/17/2014 4:21:57 PM EDT
[#3]
I remember reading a post the other day commenting about most of the poly lowers out there today. Mirrored pretty much what is being said here. But it did mention the old Cav Arms lower as being the only decent one out there. It would by no means be used to protect me or my family. Just seemed like something cool to have around.
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Posted: 4/17/2014 4:54:43 PM EDT
[#4]
I have CAV15MK2, and it's pretty awesome. It's the only poly lower I would recommend, mostly because it was designed from the ground up as a polymer lower.
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Posted: 4/17/2014 6:54:07 PM EDT
[#5]
I know there's a steel insert molded in with the serial number on it on the new GWACS lowers. Does anyone have a pic of the roll mark or is there a roll mark as well?
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Posted: 4/17/2014 7:28:22 PM EDT
[#6]
I bought a few New Frontier lowers before the craze last year.. Last year gave me a chance to offload them. I did keep one.
It works fine for standard Nato round. I haven't had any issues with it. Trigger really aint too bad. Very light weight. That said, I originally hoped to get it working with a 22 upper. Even with their upgraded 22 trigger, it wouldn't work. I finally gave up and it now sits in the deepest part of the safe.... If Nobama II is ever elected, I will likely offload that one too. My vote is stay away from poly lowers. Just not worth the trouble. |
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Posted: 4/17/2014 8:00:37 PM EDT
[#7]
To be perfectly honest I'm only considering the GWACS Armory lower since it is supposed to be the Cav15 resurrected and it got pretty good reviews. Everything else was pretty crappy from what I heard.
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Posted: 4/17/2014 8:13:53 PM EDT
[#8]
I had never seen them till you mentioned them. They are a bit odd to me but to each his own. I guess I like options of switching stocks... One reviewer said the length of the built in stock is A1 which is a tad bit shorter than A2. You may want to confirm that. Make sure that is the length you want.. Cause you will be stuck with it. To me, A1 length is fine. ;)
Quote HistoryQuoted:
To be perfectly honest I'm only considering the GWACS Armory lower since it is supposed to be the Cav15 resurrected and it got pretty good reviews. Everything else was pretty crappy from what I heard. |
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Posted: 4/17/2014 8:15:06 PM EDT
[#9]
run. fast. to the nearest fun shop and just spend the extra $20 for an aluminum lower.
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Posted: 4/17/2014 9:53:00 PM EDT
[#10]
You can get Aluminum lowers for 50-60 bucks on the low end. Why would you want a tupperware lower? I get the whole 80% deal but don't you buy milling bits that can cut aluminum at a bare minimum?
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Posted: 4/17/2014 11:46:36 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I know there's a steel insert molded in with the serial number on it on the new GWACS lowers. Does anyone have a pic of the roll mark or is there a roll mark as well? 
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Posted: 4/18/2014 2:15:05 AM EDT
[#12]
The CavArms MkII/GWACS lower is a tough, strong lower.
I've got two and they're just as good as an aluminum lower. |
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Posted: 4/18/2014 10:04:41 AM EDT
[#13]
Thanks for the pic Mad Dragon. I've got 6 AR's from Colt to Bushmaster. Some bought complete. Some built from stripped lowers. I've got the disease. Just looking to try something a little different. The olive drab or flat dark earth lower with matching hand guard and a black upper looked cool to me so I thought I would inquire. That's all. Not to mention its supposed to be lighter.
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Posted: 4/18/2014 10:25:51 AM EDT
[#14]
Draw your own conclusions for today's lesson's class.
This chart shows you the STIFFNESS vs WEIGHT of many different materials. Those bubbles represent the outer limits of the basic fundamental material capability. Class... this is why we have magnesium lowers available.. now you see why when compared to ALUM yes? Next lesson.. now you see why POLYMER LOWERS will never be as robust as ALUM. Thats why inserts are starting to show up in them. Third lesson... it always depends on the load capability of the material, thickness and obviously the design. No free lunch, there is always a trade off, weight, strength, cost, fatigue. 
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Posted: 4/18/2014 10:37:08 AM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Draw your own conclusions for today's lesson's class. This chart shows you the STIFFNESS vs WEIGHT of many different materials. Those bubbles represent the outer limits of the basic fundamental material capability. Class... this is why we have magnesium lowers available.. now you see why when compared to ALUM yes? Next lesson.. now you see why POLYMER LOWERS will never be as robust as ALUM. Thats why inserts are starting to show up in them. Third lesson... it always depends on the load capability of the material, thickness and obviously the design. No free lunch, there is always a trade off, weight, strength, cost, fatigue. http://www-materials.eng.cam.ac.uk/mpsite/physics/overview/metals.jpg Wheres my titanium lower? Looks like brass/bronze wouldn't be a bad choice if you were into casting your own. |
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Posted: 4/18/2014 11:24:14 AM EDT
[#16]
Interesting chart, according to that you'd be better off with a lower made of Oak, Teak, or Black Locust, or firing your own out of clay in a kiln. Or the coveted Golden Lower!
Makes me want to sell my S&W 15-22. I won't cause it's too much fun firing 15 CCI Stingers in 9 seconds, but you get the idea. |
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Posted: 4/18/2014 11:41:42 AM EDT
[#17]
Id be down with a brass lower!
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Posted: 4/18/2014 11:45:22 AM EDT
[#18]
Buddy wanted to swap out the pinned stock on his Bushmaster CAR15 the other day. Went to do it, noticed that the top of the buffer tower was cracked. Right in the middle, front to back. He's pissed, trying to see if Bushmaster will replace it.
I can think of no reason to own a poly lower, that isn't outweighed by reasons to own a metal lower. |
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Posted: 4/18/2014 12:16:33 PM EDT
[#19]
Quoted: Thinking about building a polymer AR. I saw Jerry Miculek talk about the old Cav Arms polymer lower that is now made by GWACS Armory out of Tulsa. Are these lowers any good as far as the polymers are concerned?Don't really care for anything like the Plum Crazy or anything like that. I like the GWACS style with the butt-stock built in. Thanks Matt. |
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Posted: 4/18/2014 12:18:10 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Draw your own conclusions for today's lesson's class. This chart shows you the STIFFNESS vs WEIGHT of many different materials. Those bubbles represent the outer limits of the basic fundamental material capability. Class... this is why we have magnesium lowers available.. now you see why when compared to ALUM yes? Next lesson.. now you see why POLYMER LOWERS will never be as robust as ALUM. Thats why inserts are starting to show up in them. Third lesson... it always depends on the load capability of the material, thickness and obviously the design. No free lunch, there is always a trade off, weight, strength, cost, fatigue. http://www-materials.eng.cam.ac.uk/mpsite/physics/overview/metals.jpg  Cavarms lowers have held up fine over many years and rounds and have never had metal inserts |
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Posted: 4/18/2014 12:22:36 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Cavarms uppers have held up fine over many years and rounds and have never had metal inserts 50K, that's a lot! An Apples to Apples comparison would look something like this to put it in perspective.... 
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Posted: 4/18/2014 12:58:20 PM EDT
[#22]
Im not knocking poly. I really have no gripes against it. Its just not for me.
I'll wait till the technology gets a little more ironed out. |
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Posted: 4/18/2014 1:00:47 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: 50K, that's a lot! An Apples to Apples comparison would look something like this to put it in perspective.... http://i1326.photobucket.com/albums/u655/Scoeyaz/Rant/03A4F520-CB4C-48A4-9202-E63532E1FD40_zps10pqdzpb.jpg Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Cavarms uppers have held up fine over many years and rounds and have never had metal inserts 50K, that's a lot! An Apples to Apples comparison would look something like this to put it in perspective.... http://i1326.photobucket.com/albums/u655/Scoeyaz/Rant/03A4F520-CB4C-48A4-9202-E63532E1FD40_zps10pqdzpb.jpg  I don't disagree with what you are saying in theory, but Cavarms lowers have a pretty good track record of holding up and while plastic obviously is not aluminum, the lower with 223 is not a highly stressed part and the cavarms lower was designed to take into account plastic not being as strong as aluminum. The plastic lowers that are copies of metal lowers seem like a bad design
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Posted: 4/18/2014 2:08:06 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
ha
I don't disagree with what you are saying in theory, but Cavarms lowers have a pretty good track record of holding up and while plastic obviously is not aluminum, the lower with 223 is not a highly stressed part and the cavarms lower was designed to take into account plastic not being as strong as aluminum. The plastic lowers that are copies of metal lowers seem like a bad design Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Cavarms uppers have held up fine over many years and rounds and have never had metal inserts 50K, that's a lot! An Apples to Apples comparison would look something like this to put it in perspective....
http://i1326.photobucket.com/albums/u655/Scoeyaz/Rant/03A4F520-CB4C-48A4-9202-E63532E1FD40_zps10pqdzpb.jpg
I don't disagree with what you are saying in theory, but Cavarms lowers have a pretty good track record of holding up and while plastic obviously is not aluminum, the lower with 223 is not a highly stressed part and the cavarms lower was designed to take into account plastic not being as strong as aluminum. The plastic lowers that are copies of metal lowers seem like a bad design This was part of my thinking. The Cavarms took this into account and built the entire lower as one piece. I think that would make them a little more durable than the polymer lowers that were built just like their aluminum counterparts. Like I said in my original post I wasn't even considering one of those. Thinking about a Cavarms for maybe a dedicated 22LR build up using a 16" LR barrel and bolt. |
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Posted: 4/18/2014 2:25:23 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This was part of my thinking. The Cavarms took this into account and built the entire lower as one piece. I think that would make them a little more durable than the polymer lowers that were built just like their aluminum counterparts. Like I said in my original post I wasn't even considering one of those. Thinking about a Cavarms for maybe a dedicated 22LR build up using a 16" LR barrel and bolt. Cavarms went out of business a few years ago. GWACS took over production of the CAV15 lowers. |
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Posted: 4/18/2014 2:28:41 PM EDT
[#26]
By Cavarms I mean GWACS. Sorry.
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Posted: 4/18/2014 8:08:00 PM EDT
[#27]
Added advantage of the GWACS Cav Armes lower is it's ability to run Grease Gun mags with a Hahn Precision adaptor and a .45 upper......here is a Macon Armory DI 45 ACP upper on a GWACS lower......and the guys at GWACS are good people......I have several and have abused hell out of them....and they just keep working....
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Posted: 4/18/2014 8:11:35 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Added advantage of the GWACS Cav Armes lower is it's ability to run Grease Gun mags with a Hahn Precision adaptor and a .45 upper......here is a Macon Armory DI 45 ACP upper on a GWACS lower......and the guys at GWACS are good people......I have several and have abused hell out of them....and they just keep working.... http://i368.photobucket.com/albums/oo121/MadMachinist/P1010024-1.jpg |
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Posted: 4/18/2014 8:34:16 PM EDT
[#29]
You can't do this with a standard forged lower? Forgive me but I don't know what a Hahn Precision adapter is...
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Added advantage of the GWACS Cav Armes lower is it's ability to run Grease Gun mags with a Hahn Precision adaptor and a .45 upper......here is a Macon Armory DI 45 ACP upper on a GWACS lower......and the guys at GWACS are good people......I have several and have abused hell out of them....and they just keep working.... <a href="http://s368.photobucket.com/user/MadMachinist/media/P1010024-1.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i368.photobucket.com/albums/oo121/MadMachinist/P1010024-1.jpg</a> |
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Posted: 4/18/2014 10:20:03 PM EDT
[#30]
It seems like every 3-4 weeks we have to have this conversation and people confuse other plastic receivers with the durability of the CAV-15 MKII.
Dropped, run over, SHOT. Still working. I worked for Cav Arms from 2001-2010, GWACS now sponsors me to compete and demo their product at some matches. Polymer receivers aren't for everyone, and some people need telestocks or the ability to change grips. Don't tell me they don't work or can't take the abuse, because I have personally demonstrated that they can. |
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Posted: 4/18/2014 10:24:43 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Draw your own conclusions for today's lesson's class. This chart shows you the STIFFNESS vs WEIGHT of many different materials. Those bubbles represent the outer limits of the basic fundamental material capability. Class... this is why we have magnesium lowers available.. now you see why when compared to ALUM yes? Next lesson.. now you see why POLYMER LOWERS will never be as robust as ALUM. Thats why inserts are starting to show up in them. Third lesson... it always depends on the load capability of the material, thickness and obviously the design. No free lunch, there is always a trade off, weight, strength, cost, fatigue. http://www-materials.eng.cam.ac.uk/mpsite/physics/overview/metals.jpg Plastic works fine as long as the part was designed to be made out of plastic. Cramming plastic into aluminum dimensions is destined to fail. The CAV-15 MKII is the only receiver on the market that was designed from the ground up to be made out of polymer and has been in production since 2003. They have survived things that would out aluminum receivers out of commission because they would bend permanently where plastic will flex and return to its shape. The only metal insert that has ever been in he CAV-15 MKII is the serial number tag as required by BATF. |
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Posted: 4/18/2014 10:32:02 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You can't do this with a standard forged lower? Forgive me but I don't know what a Hahn Precision adapter is... Quote HistoryQuoted:
You can't do this with a standard forged lower? Forgive me but I don't know what a Hahn Precision adapter is... Quoted:
Added advantage of the GWACS Cav Armes lower is it's ability to run Grease Gun mags with a Hahn Precision adaptor and a .45 upper......here is a Macon Armory DI 45 ACP upper on a GWACS lower......and the guys at GWACS are good people......I have several and have abused hell out of them....and they just keep working.... <a href="http://s368.photobucket.com/user/MadMachinist/media/P1010024-1.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i368.photobucket.com/albums/oo121/MadMachinist/P1010024-1.jpg</a> Forged lowers aren't wide enough to accept grease gun magazines. The center of the Cav-15 MKII mag well is wider so it can accept them with the right mag block. |
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Posted: 4/18/2014 10:51:11 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
50K, that's a lot! An Apples to Apples comparison would look something like this to put it in perspective....
http://i1326.photobucket.com/albums/u655/Scoeyaz/Rant/03A4F520-CB4C-48A4-9202-E63532E1FD40_zps10pqdzpb.jpg Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Cavarms uppers have held up fine over many years and rounds and have never had metal inserts 50K, that's a lot! An Apples to Apples comparison would look something like this to put it in perspective....
http://i1326.photobucket.com/albums/u655/Scoeyaz/Rant/03A4F520-CB4C-48A4-9202-E63532E1FD40_zps10pqdzpb.jpg Sorry we didn't have millions to spend on ammo and just destroy guns. We did shoot some colt 9mm subguns to death in lower round counts than 50k. The pin holes wore out. I've never seen the pin holes wear out on CAV-15s in similar round counts. I have seen an aluminum lower and CAV-15 get run over in the same incident and the Aluminum receiver was out of commission with a bent buffer tube, while the CAV-15 was just gouged and still functioned. Shooters World in Phoenix had a rental gun with over 100k on it that they shot 4 uppers to death on over 10 years. They only traded it in to get a new one with GWACS markings to reflect what they currently sell. The technology is there and has been there for 11 years now. There is nothing left to "iron out". CAV-15s simply work. |
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Posted: 4/19/2014 4:29:47 AM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Forged lowers aren't wide enough to accept grease gun magazines. The center of the Cav-15 MKII mag well is wider so it can accept them with the right mag block. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
You can't do this with a standard forged lower? Forgive me but I don't know what a Hahn Precision adapter is... Quoted:
Added advantage of the GWACS Cav Armes lower is it's ability to run Grease Gun mags with a Hahn Precision adaptor and a .45 upper......here is a Macon Armory DI 45 ACP upper on a GWACS lower......and the guys at GWACS are good people......I have several and have abused hell out of them....and they just keep working.... <a href="http://s368.photobucket.com/user/MadMachinist/media/P1010024-1.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i368.photobucket.com/albums/oo121/MadMachinist/P1010024-1.jpg</a> Forged lowers aren't wide enough to accept grease gun magazines. The center of the Cav-15 MKII mag well is wider so it can accept them with the right mag block. thanks for info... So far this is the only real benefit I have read and since I dont have grease gun mags, I'll pass. I just couldn't deal with the fixed furniture. |
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Posted: 4/19/2014 7:54:44 AM EDT
[#35]
Still running JMT poly, still good.
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Posted: 4/19/2014 6:49:06 PM EDT
[#36]
Does the lighter weight of the GWACS or Cav Arms lowers cause the rifle to be nose heavy at all? Seems like it could upset the balance a bit especially with a heavier barrel.
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Posted: 4/19/2014 10:14:26 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Does the lighter weight of the GWACS or Cav Arms lowers cause the rifle to be nose heavy at all? Seems like it could upset the balance a bit especially with a heavier barrel. I prefer to use govt or lightweight barrels with mine. Using an HBAR or bull barrel some what defeats the purpose. |
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Posted: 4/20/2014 6:24:35 AM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Does the lighter weight of the GWACS or Cav Arms lowers cause the rifle to be nose heavy at all? Seems like it could upset the balance a bit especially with a heavier barrel. It's a noticeable on heavier barrel contours. Makes you realize how much weight is in a detachable stock and buffer tube assembly. If you wanted to balance it out, there's room in the stock to add weights, or even an A2 trapdoor end plate would provide some weight at the back. I figure you wouldn't need to add much weight if it's positioned properly. |
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Posted: 4/20/2014 7:09:43 AM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Does the lighter weight of the GWACS or Cav Arms lowers cause the rifle to be nose heavy at all? Seems like it could upset the balance a bit especially with a heavier barrel. It can. Sometimes I put a CavArms lower on my precision upper if I have to hike around. Shooting offhand there is a noticeable front weight bias. It's offset to a degree by a CF float tube but it's still heavy up there. It's not a huge issue because I brace it against something or use the bi-pod most of the time. I don't notice as much on my other AR's. The barrel profile on those uppers is much thinner than the SPR profile on the rifle below. Pic of set-up 
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Posted: 4/20/2014 7:49:50 AM EDT
[#40]
always seemed like a solution to a problem that doesn't exist.....to each his own
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Posted: 4/21/2014 10:42:21 AM EDT
[#41]
I agree too. I actually want a Cav arms complete rifle lower for the GF.
Plus it comes in colors. Im down with it. |
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Posted: 4/21/2014 11:01:27 AM EDT
[#42]
Tennessee Firearms Company makes a hybrid poly lower. It has brass inserts for the buffer tube and pistol grip. I believe they sell them for around $50 and you can get them in a variety of colors. www.tennesseearmscompany.com
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Posted: 4/21/2014 12:20:45 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Tennessee Firearms Company makes a hybrid poly lower. It has brass inserts for the buffer tube and pistol grip. I believe they sell them for around $50 and you can get them in a variety of colors. www.tennesseearmscompany.com Brass is heavier and weaker than steel. And more expensive. Wrong choice for reinforcement? Edited to add: Wrong area to reinforce as well. The RE rings crack at the rear takedown pin on most failures I have seen. TFC just reinforced the threads. |
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Posted: 4/21/2014 12:42:48 PM EDT
[#44]
I bought an OMNI/ATI polymer lower for $29 just before Newtown. Took me a while to complete due to the panic, but it now has over 2,000 rounds through it without problem. The ones made after the panic started had a TON of problems [the company was in overtime production mode and QC evidently went down the toilet at that point] and the company is replacing them under warranty. Mine worked fine, but is a fun/range gun. If I could ever carry it on duty, would i swap out the lower? I don't know at this point as mine has done fine. Make your own call, as to what you are going to use it for.
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