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Basic
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Posted: 8/6/2013 9:46:05 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/6/2013 9:46:37 PM EST by AdrianP]
So im half way done building my ar 15 with the whole upper complete basically and now the hard part is getting a lower receiver.... I know i can pay the FFL dealer/shop to put it together and pay them alot more money for this but is there other ways of getting it? I saw people say get your family member can get it but no one has a firearms license except me is there a way i could still get one if i brought my mom and shes over 21? Also the other way i seen people say is face to face transfer of a lower receiver can be done, but im not sure if thats the same law/rule that applies to New Jersey. Because if its allowed i can get someone to buy the lower and then transfer it too me. Which one of these work best or is there something else that i can do to get it? HELP

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Link Posted: 8/6/2013 9:54:32 PM EST
You could move.

Don't spend the rest of your life in a NJ shithole... I used to live there. The only thing I miss is the food.

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Link Posted: 8/6/2013 9:56:44 PM EST
I wish i could move but im stuck in this horrible state for awhile not moving anytime soon.

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Link Posted: 8/6/2013 10:05:01 PM EST
I would tiptoe around firearms there.

When I moved there I learned I needed a license for a handgun that I already owned. I was told to call a state police barracks. I did and told them I had a firearm and I wanted to be all legal. They told me to bring the firearm to the barracks and they would take possession of it, then give me the paperwork to fill out. I asked him when I would get my firearm back. He said probably around 6 months, "if" I'm approved. I said I'll be right down. Lol

Hopefully someone who lives there will have more information to help you.

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Link Posted: 8/6/2013 10:05:22 PM EST
How about an LMT assembled lower?

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Link Posted: 8/6/2013 10:06:38 PM EST
Try here to see if they will have answers for you in the hometown forum.


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Link Posted: 8/6/2013 10:30:03 PM EST
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Link Posted: 8/7/2013 12:53:33 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/7/2013 12:54:11 AM EST by Acedraven]
If the issue is it possibly being used as a pistol lower.

Buy one complete and have it shipped to FFL, Buy one complete from FFL. Or buy a stripped lower and try having them install just the buffer tube and stock (Maybe you could even bring your own in?) Should only take them a few minutes to do.

Find a shop with good people and they should take care of you.

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Link Posted: 8/7/2013 3:57:57 AM EST
If you buy an assembled complete lower, I think it would be a rfle since a stock is already attached.

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Link Posted: 8/7/2013 4:14:46 AM EST
As noted above, a stripped lower transfers as neither a rifle or a pistol, but it "could be" a pistol, so the 21 year old rule applies (not just in Jersey). On the other hand, a complete lower with a stock is already a "rifle" legally, and that means that (most places anyway) it can be transferred to an 18 year old buyer who is otherwise legally qualified.
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Link Posted: 8/7/2013 4:49:26 AM EST
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Originally Posted By GHPorter:
As noted above, a stripped lower transfers as neither a rifle or a pistol, but it "could be" a pistol, so the 21 year old rule applies (not just in Jersey). On the other hand, a complete lower with a stock is already a "rifle" legally, and that means that (most places anyway) it can be transferred to an 18 year old buyer who is otherwise legally qualified.
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Link Posted: 8/7/2013 5:09:20 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/7/2013 5:10:45 AM EST by Wombat]

+


Or

With a non FFL.

Or buy a rifle and take the lower from it.

I do not know NJ law so I would check with the HTF as has been posted before.

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Link Posted: 8/7/2013 5:55:28 AM EST
Drive with a parent to PA. Then again not sure on NJ laws regarding transporting a weapon back across state lines.

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Link Posted: 8/7/2013 6:12:25 AM EST
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Originally Posted By jaydee54:


WRONG
http://www.ar15.com/media/viewFile.html?i=26635
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Originally Posted By jaydee54:
Originally Posted By GHPorter:
As noted above, a stripped lower transfers as neither a rifle or a pistol, but it "could be" a pistol, so the 21 year old rule applies (not just in Jersey). On the other hand, a complete lower with a stock is already a "rifle" legally, and that means that (most places anyway) it can be transferred to an 18 year old buyer who is otherwise legally qualified.


WRONG
http://www.ar15.com/media/viewFile.html?i=26635
Too many people assume that because it has a butt stock its a rifle, they totally forget that federal law requires both a butt stock and a barrel to be a rifle.

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Link Posted: 8/7/2013 6:46:55 AM EST
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Originally Posted By jaqufrost:
Too many people assume that because it has a butt stock its a rifle, they totally forget that federal law requires both a butt stock and a barrel to be a rifle.
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Originally Posted By jaqufrost:
Originally Posted By jaydee54:
Originally Posted By GHPorter:
As noted above, a stripped lower transfers as neither a rifle or a pistol, but it "could be" a pistol, so the 21 year old rule applies (not just in Jersey). On the other hand, a complete lower with a stock is already a "rifle" legally, and that means that (most places anyway) it can be transferred to an 18 year old buyer who is otherwise legally qualified.


WRONG
http://www.ar15.com/media/viewFile.html?i=26635
Too many people assume that because it has a butt stock its a rifle, they totally forget that federal law requires both a butt stock and a barrel to be a rifle.

Couldn't he just take his assembled upper to the dealer have them put it on the assembled lower and sell asa rifle?

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Link Posted: 8/7/2013 6:57:03 AM EST
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Originally Posted By aelliott09:

Couldn't he just take his assembled upper to the dealer have them put it on the assembled lower and sell asa rifle?
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Originally Posted By aelliott09:
Originally Posted By jaqufrost:
SNIP
Too many people assume that because it has a butt stock its a rifle, they totally forget that federal law requires both a butt stock and a barrel to be a rifle.

Couldn't he just take his assembled upper to the dealer have them put it on the assembled lower and sell asa rifle?
Only if the dealer is a licensed manufacturer. If the dealer is a licensed manufacturer they could then assemble the rifle and sell it to him as such. Most dealers are not manufactures though.

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Link Posted: 8/7/2013 7:00:15 AM EST
Basically, because you live in New Jersey, you'll have to either build one yourself from an 80%, or buy a complete rifle and sell off the parts you don't want to recoup some of your costs. Or someone can die and leave it to you in their will (not being funny - that's another way to bypass having to go through an FFL - as part of an estate).
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Link Posted: 8/7/2013 7:08:22 AM EST
Even if the lower has a stock and is complete and ready to go for a rifle, it is still sold as "other" which requires you to be 21. You can have a shop with a manufacturing license sell you an upper when you come to pick up your lower. Then it would be classified as a rifle that they manufactured. Then you can "sell" the upper back to them or keep it.

That's what I did when I was 19

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Link Posted: 8/7/2013 7:18:30 AM EST
Building an 80% reciever in NJ is not legal unless you are registered as a manufacturer. I posted that question in the NJ forum a while ago and there is a very good reply that fully answers the question. My suggestion would be go to a good gun shop in your area and talk to them. There are a few around with good people that will take the time to explain the laws to you and tell you what your options are.

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Link Posted: 8/7/2013 9:21:03 AM EST
Could you find a buddy or friend that needs/wants a complete upper assembly? If so, then purchase a complete rifle in your name and remove the upper, sell to friend and keep your lower? Not sure on the legality of that in NJ though.

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Link Posted: 8/7/2013 9:48:37 AM EST
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Originally Posted By flosho:
Could you find a buddy or friend that needs/wants a complete upper assembly? If so, then purchase a complete rifle in your name and remove the upper, sell to friend and keep your lower? Not sure on the legality of that in NJ though.
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I think this is your best option. Sell the extra upper on the EE and you probably won't lose to much on it.

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Link Posted: 8/7/2013 3:45:32 PM EST
How about buying a lower from someone already can you do that at age 18? because i know a FFL dealer cant and has to do it by law and thats why it has to be 21, but never saw anything about a private seller that has one and wanted to sell it too a 18 year old

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Link Posted: 8/7/2013 4:12:50 PM EST
If an FFL won't do it then it is not legal. ANybody who does this can be in big trouble. Your best bet is to buy a complete rifle and sell what you don't need later. Your only other alternative is to find a shop that can build your rifle for you and process the transfer. I am sure the New Germany hometown forums will have a list of shops for you.

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Link Posted: 8/7/2013 4:14:32 PM EST
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Originally Posted By edgephoto:
If an FFL won't do it then it is not legal. ANybody who does this can be in big trouble.
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Link Posted: 8/7/2013 4:21:33 PM EST
actually that's not true i know other states allow a private seller to be able to sell a lower receiver too an 18 year old as long as it will be turned into a rifle i just dont know about jersey if its the same thing.

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Link Posted: 8/7/2013 4:39:40 PM EST
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Originally Posted By jaydee54:


WRONG
http://www.ar15.com/media/viewFile.html?i=26635
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Originally Posted By jaydee54:
Originally Posted By GHPorter:
As noted above, a stripped lower transfers as neither a rifle or a pistol, but it "could be" a pistol, so the 21 year old rule applies (not just in Jersey). On the other hand, a complete lower with a stock is already a "rifle" legally, and that means that (most places anyway) it can be transferred to an 18 year old buyer who is otherwise legally qualified.


WRONG
http://www.ar15.com/media/viewFile.html?i=26635

I was referring to how most dealers will see it; "it has a stock, so it's a rifle lower," and thus they will be likely to go ahead and sell it to an 18 year old buyer. Since the subject of this thread was how the 18 year old OP could get a lower, I had not expected to be jumped on by anyone citing technical details that do not really apply to the OP's question. I probably should have been more clear in how I stated the "legally" phrase, but your comment is really not helpful to the OP...
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Link Posted: 8/7/2013 4:43:50 PM EST
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Originally Posted By AdrianP:
actually that's not true i know other states allow a private seller to be able to sell a lower receiver too an 18 year old as long as it will be turned into a rifle i just dont know about jersey if its the same thing.
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This part doesn't matter federally. Some states may have their own rules, but federally private party sales of rifles, pistols and "others" are just fine. It doesn't matter whether he wants to build the lower into a pistol or rifle.

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Link Posted: 8/7/2013 5:57:55 PM EST
What if i get someone that i know to get a lower receiver thats over 21 and give him all my parts and he builds it into a full rifle and transfers it too me. Thats completely legal right?

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Link Posted: 8/7/2013 6:10:54 PM EST
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Originally Posted By AdrianP:
What if i get someone that i know to get a lower receiver thats over 21 and give him all my parts and he builds it into a full rifle and transfers it too me. Thats completely legal right?
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No, that is a straw purchase.

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Link Posted: 8/7/2013 6:13:58 PM EST
You will not be able to purchase a stripped lower because its will be marked as a stripped lower from the factory (i.e. the factory keeps track of which lowers are assembled and which are not) which can be con figured into a "pistol". "Pistol" in MA means a fire under a specific OAL while also not having a shoulder stock, a pistol could mean something completely different in NJ.

The way around this would only be to purchase a complete lower, whether it be a factor or dealer installed it should not matter.

Assuming MA and NJ have similar screwed up laws,.
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Link Posted: 8/7/2013 6:18:34 PM EST
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Originally Posted By jaqufrost:
No, that is a straw purchase.
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Originally Posted By jaqufrost:
Originally Posted By AdrianP:
What if i get someone that i know to get a lower receiver thats over 21 and give him all my parts and he builds it into a full rifle and transfers it too me. Thats completely legal right?
No, that is a straw purchase.


what does a straw purchase mean? i dont get how thats illegal

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Link Posted: 8/7/2013 6:32:33 PM EST
Lowers are others because they aren't rifles, shotguns, or pistols. Has nothing to do with what you can build it into, it has to do with the fact that as is it does not meet the definition of a rifle, shotgun, or handgun. Even if he was to try to buy a Remington 700 barreled action, he can't because it's not a long gun until a stock is attached. Also, you have to be 21 to buy any gun from an FFL, with the exception of rifles and shotguns. That means he can't buy handguns, he can't buy lowers, he can't buy pistol grip shotguns, he can't buy anything that isn't a shotgun or rifle from an FFL. If FTF transactions are legal in NJ, then he can buy any firearm from a private seller.

And OP, a straw purchase is when someone buys a gun for someone else. Gifts are fine, giving someone the money and having them fill out the 4473 because you can't legally buy the gun is illegal. Your best bet is to tell your parents or older sibling that you'd really like a stripped lower for Christmas, birthday, etc. Or if FTF is legal there, browse through the for sale ads until you find an individual selling the lower you want.
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Link Posted: 8/7/2013 6:34:51 PM EST
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Originally Posted By AdrianP:


what does a straw purchase mean? i dont get how thats illegal
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Originally Posted By AdrianP:
Originally Posted By jaqufrost:
Originally Posted By AdrianP:
What if i get someone that i know to get a lower receiver thats over 21 and give him all my parts and he builds it into a full rifle and transfers it too me. Thats completely legal right?
No, that is a straw purchase.


what does a straw purchase mean? i dont get how thats illegal


After doing research of a straw purchase it seems like its a "straw purchase" if the person that cant buy the things he needs himself because hes a criminal or felon and thats why hes not allowed and could go to jail. That a different story with me im not a felon/criminal and if someone was to buy the lower receiver and make it into and fully built ar 15 and transfer it to me at age 18 that should be legal and if not please explain more in details?

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Link Posted: 8/7/2013 6:39:42 PM EST
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Originally Posted By JoshAston:
Lowers are others because they aren't rifles, shotguns, or pistols. Has nothing to do with what you can build it into, it has to do with the fact that as is it does not meet the definition of a rifle, shotgun, or handgun. Even if he was to try to buy a Remington 700 barreled action, he can't because it's not a long gun until a stock is attached. Also, you have to be 21 to buy any gun from an FFL, with the exception of rifles and shotguns. That means he can't buy handguns, he can't buy lowers, he can't buy pistol grip shotguns, he can't buy anything that isn't a shotgun or rifle from an FFL. If FTF transactions are legal in NJ, then he can buy any firearm from a private seller.

And OP, a straw purchase is when someone buys a gun for someone else. Gifts are fine, giving someone the money and having them fill out the 4473 because you can't legally buy the gun is illegal. Your best bet is to tell your parents or older sibling that you'd really like a stripped lower for Christmas, birthday, etc. Or if FTF is legal there, browse through the for sale ads until you find an individual selling the lower you want.
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None of my family members have a Firearms license which in that case there's no way they can buy it for me unless since i got one they can somehow which i doubt that's possible.

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Link Posted: 8/7/2013 6:42:57 PM EST
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Originally Posted By AdrianP:


None of my family members have a Firearms license which in that case there's no way they can buy it for me unless since i got one they can somehow which i doubt that's possible.
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Originally Posted By AdrianP:
Originally Posted By JoshAston:
Lowers are others because they aren't rifles, shotguns, or pistols. Has nothing to do with what you can build it into, it has to do with the fact that as is it does not meet the definition of a rifle, shotgun, or handgun. Even if he was to try to buy a Remington 700 barreled action, he can't because it's not a long gun until a stock is attached. Also, you have to be 21 to buy any gun from an FFL, with the exception of rifles and shotguns. That means he can't buy handguns, he can't buy lowers, he can't buy pistol grip shotguns, he can't buy anything that isn't a shotgun or rifle from an FFL. If FTF transactions are legal in NJ, then he can buy any firearm from a private seller.

And OP, a straw purchase is when someone buys a gun for someone else. Gifts are fine, giving someone the money and having them fill out the 4473 because you can't legally buy the gun is illegal. Your best bet is to tell your parents or older sibling that you'd really like a stripped lower for Christmas, birthday, etc. Or if FTF is legal there, browse through the for sale ads until you find an individual selling the lower you want.


None of my family members have a Firearms license which in that case there's no way they can buy it for me unless since i got one they can somehow which i doubt that's possible.


Buy a cheap complete AR. Strip off everything you don't need and replace it with what you already have. Sell the take off parts on the EE. Or get an 80% lower and find a machine shop that will let you use their machines while they supervise.
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Link Posted: 8/7/2013 6:53:06 PM EST
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Originally Posted By JoshAston:


Buy a cheap complete AR. Strip off everything you don't need and replace it with what you already have. Sell the take off parts on the EE. Or get an 80% lower and find a machine shop that will let you use their machines while they supervise.
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Originally Posted By JoshAston:
Originally Posted By AdrianP:
Originally Posted By JoshAston:
Lowers are others because they aren't rifles, shotguns, or pistols. Has nothing to do with what you can build it into, it has to do with the fact that as is it does not meet the definition of a rifle, shotgun, or handgun. Even if he was to try to buy a Remington 700 barreled action, he can't because it's not a long gun until a stock is attached. Also, you have to be 21 to buy any gun from an FFL, with the exception of rifles and shotguns. That means he can't buy handguns, he can't buy lowers, he can't buy pistol grip shotguns, he can't buy anything that isn't a shotgun or rifle from an FFL. If FTF transactions are legal in NJ, then he can buy any firearm from a private seller.

And OP, a straw purchase is when someone buys a gun for someone else. Gifts are fine, giving someone the money and having them fill out the 4473 because you can't legally buy the gun is illegal. Your best bet is to tell your parents or older sibling that you'd really like a stripped lower for Christmas, birthday, etc. Or if FTF is legal there, browse through the for sale ads until you find an individual selling the lower you want.


None of my family members have a Firearms license which in that case there's no way they can buy it for me unless since i got one they can somehow which i doubt that's possible.


Buy a cheap complete AR. Strip off everything you don't need and replace it with what you already have. Sell the take off parts on the EE. Or get an 80% lower and find a machine shop that will let you use their machines while they supervise.

i know we can do FTF transfers in new jersey but not sure about lower receivers being sold to 18 year olds though, but would I be able to buy someones rifle they built themselve and is a complete ar 15?

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Link Posted: 8/7/2013 7:12:07 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/7/2013 7:19:39 PM EST by JoshAston]
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Originally Posted By AdrianP:
i know we can do FTF transfers in new jersey but not sure about lower receivers being sold to 18 year olds though, but would I be able to buy someones rifle they built themselve and is a complete ar 15?
View Quote


If FTF transactions are legal there then it's highly likely that they aren't restricted to only long guns for those under 21. Federal law only prohibits FFLs from selling other than long guns to those under 21. There is nothing saying 18-20 year olds cannot purchase other than long guns from a private seller. So, unless NJ bans FTF transactions entirely, they probably mirror the federal law in that aspect. However, I'm not from NJ, nor am I any kind of expert on their gun laws.

ETA: from a little research it appears you'd be fine doing a FTF for a stripped lower. 80% lowers are a no go. You cannot do a FTF for a handgun because you have to have a handgun permit which you have to be 21 to acquire. Lowers are "Title I Firearms, aka Others" though, not handguns, so you should be good to go.
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Link Posted: 8/7/2013 7:20:34 PM EST
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Originally Posted By JoshAston:


If FTF transactions are legal there then it's highly likely that they aren't restricted to only long guns for those under 21. Federal law only prohibits FFLs from selling other than long guns to those under 21. There is nothing saying 18-20 year olds cannot purchase other than long guns from a private seller. So, unless NJ bans FTF transactions entirely, they probably mirror the federal law in that aspect. However, I'm not from NJ, nor am I any kind of expert on their gun laws.
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Originally Posted By JoshAston:
Originally Posted By AdrianP:
i know we can do FTF transfers in new jersey but not sure about lower receivers being sold to 18 year olds though, but would I be able to buy someones rifle they built themselve and is a complete ar 15?


If FTF transactions are legal there then it's highly likely that they aren't restricted to only long guns for those under 21. Federal law only prohibits FFLs from selling other than long guns to those under 21. There is nothing saying 18-20 year olds cannot purchase other than long guns from a private seller. So, unless NJ bans FTF transactions entirely, they probably mirror the federal law in that aspect. However, I'm not from NJ, nor am I any kind of expert on their gun laws.


well i know there are FTF transactions because you can download the form to print out and fill out with the seller and both must have a copy of it once complete and both signed by each other on both papers. So seems like ill be able to get this ar built with this way.

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Link Posted: 8/7/2013 7:50:51 PM EST
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Originally Posted By AdrianP:


After doing research of a straw purchase it seems like its a "straw purchase" if the person that cant buy the things he needs himself because hes a criminal or felon and thats why hes not allowed and could go to jail. That a different story with me im not a felon/criminal and if someone was to buy the lower receiver and make it into and fully built ar 15 and transfer it to me at age 18 that should be legal and if not please explain more in details?
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Originally Posted By AdrianP:
Originally Posted By AdrianP:
Originally Posted By jaqufrost:
Originally Posted By AdrianP:
What if i get someone that i know to get a lower receiver thats over 21 and give him all my parts and he builds it into a full rifle and transfers it too me. Thats completely legal right?
No, that is a straw purchase.


what does a straw purchase mean? i dont get how thats illegal


After doing research of a straw purchase it seems like its a "straw purchase" if the person that cant buy the things he needs himself because hes a criminal or felon and thats why hes not allowed and could go to jail. That a different story with me im not a felon/criminal and if someone was to buy the lower receiver and make it into and fully built ar 15 and transfer it to me at age 18 that should be legal and if not please explain more in details?


Straw purchase does not only include felons. A straw purchase is the act of circumventing firearm purchase laws/requirements through the use of a third party. A 17 year old who gets his 18 year old friend to get him a rifle from a dealer is a straw purchase. A 20 year old who gets his 21+ year old friend to get him a handgun or any firearm classified as "other" is a straw purchase.

If your state law allows FTF sales, then that's your only hope for a lower.

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Link Posted: 8/8/2013 5:17:59 AM EST
If you can't walk in to a gun store and buy it for ANY reason at all, age or criminal record, you can't legally acquire it any other way, to include FTF from your buddy without committing a federal pound me in the ass prison felony.

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Link Posted: 8/8/2013 5:29:19 AM EST
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Originally Posted By USAF_MTL:
If you can't walk in to a gun store and buy it for ANY reason at all, age or criminal record, you can't legally acquire it any other way, to include FTF from your buddy without committing a federal pound me in the ass prison felony.
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Absolutely not true. But you can't arrange for a buddy to buy it for you. You can buy one from a buddy as long as he purchased it for himself and then later decided to sell it.

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Link Posted: 8/8/2013 7:07:50 AM EST
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Originally Posted By USAF_MTL:
If you can't walk in to a gun store and buy it for ANY reason at all, age or criminal record, you can't legally acquire it any other way, to include FTF from your buddy without committing a federal pound me in the ass prison felony.
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What jaqufrost said, you're flat out wrong.

Dealers are not permitted to transfer any firearm except complete rifles or complete shotguns to persons between the ages of 18 and 20, but in most states it's perfectly legal for those over 18 to purchase any firearm, including receivers and handguns. The persons between 18 and 20 just end up having to purchase them in private FTF sales or build them themselves, if their state's laws don't forbid that.
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Link Posted: 8/8/2013 7:52:41 AM EST
The "Complete firearm" thing tells me it is a poorly written law. Lets say our young friend here gets one of those polymer lowers and it breaks on his first range trip. Legally he would have to purchase a complete rifle from a FFL or do a FTF to get his once working rifle back. There should be a repair clause.

I am not a lawyer, nor do I play one on the internet, but I do have a Criminal Justice degree that haven't used in 17 years.

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Link Posted: 8/8/2013 8:34:27 AM EST
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Originally Posted By jbadin:
The "Complete firearm" thing tells me it is a poorly written law. Lets say our young friend here gets one of those polymer lowers and it breaks on his first range trip. Legally he would have to purchase a complete rifle from a FFL or do a FTF to get his once working rifle back. There should be a repair clause.
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There is a repair/replacement clause, from the original mfg only, though. If the lower were to break, the purchaser can mail it direct to the mfg, and get a replacement direct back to them, even if the replacement has a different serial number. This is explicitly addressed in the FAQs at the ATF website.
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