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Basic
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Posted: 4/24/2012 3:21:59 PM EST
[Last Edit: 5/4/2012 1:34:19 PM EST by brodband8]
I know we have all seen and heard about the Slide Fire Solutions bump fire stock.
Well, as like most of us, I didn't see the point in spending $350 or more on one of these stocks.
The argument about how they are cheaper than the the cost of a full auto lower is entirely
true, however, I do not think they are cheap enough. I set out to create my own while trying to
keep it as cost efficient as I could. Let me know what you all think.

For those of you who wanted the updated design first, here it is:





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Link Posted: 4/24/2012 3:27:03 PM EST
[Last Edit: 4/24/2012 3:34:02 PM EST by brodband8]

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Link Posted: 4/24/2012 3:40:11 PM EST
[Last Edit: 4/24/2012 3:41:48 PM EST by brodband8]
Everything used to make this stock I already owned. I paid nothing to make this.
Materials I used were:

Magpul MOE grip
M4 Buttstock
Metal rod
9 Screws
12 washers
One piece of 8x10 sheet metal

Tools I used were:

Dremil
Drill
Screwdriver




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Link Posted: 4/24/2012 3:45:02 PM EST
Can anyone say "patent infringement" .

I am not an attorney and I believe that you are legal to build a device that is patented for your own use. However if you ever offer one for sale, you can be sued for infringing on their patent.

As a second point, how much time have you spent building the stock? Is your time worth anything? You can quickly spend more building than just buying one used on gunbroker

As a final point everyone busted on Slidefire for building an "ugly" stock when their product first came out. Theirs has nothing on ugly compared to yours.....lol

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Link Posted: 4/24/2012 4:25:38 PM EST
[Last Edit: 4/24/2012 4:28:17 PM EST by brodband8]
Alright bud, calm down. I thought the idea up and created it, in less than 24 hours total.
I saved 350 bucks, and had a lot of fun. Are you not understanding this? Also I have NO plans
to sell this. It may be ugly, but it works, and it works just fine. Wait till you see the second one.
You have NO idea how much better it is going to be. As I said, just trying to have some fun,
no illegal intentions whatsoever, private use only.

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Link Posted: 4/24/2012 4:30:17 PM EST
[Last Edit: 4/24/2012 4:43:07 PM EST by autotech6506]
*edit* i watched the 3rd video. now it makes sense.

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Link Posted: 4/24/2012 4:33:18 PM EST
No spring whatsoever. Solid metal.

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Link Posted: 4/24/2012 4:41:28 PM EST
I think its cool you designed and built something yourself, and it seems to work.

I have no desire for any bump fire type stock, but as long as what you have is legal, kudos to you.

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Link Posted: 4/24/2012 4:43:34 PM EST
Question... How would I go about VERIFYING that this is 100 percent legal. I am pretty sure it is, but I am not the ATF, and if it will silence the people that are going to post about it being illegal, I will make sure it is.

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Link Posted: 4/24/2012 4:48:12 PM EST
good work OP you got me thinking
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Link Posted: 4/24/2012 4:48:47 PM EST
[Last Edit: 4/24/2012 4:49:46 PM EST by doubleshot00]
WOW looks really cool. Seems like the same thing to me just a little more ugly. I dont see how anything the op built is any different than how the slide fire works. Good job OP for thinking outside the box OP.

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Link Posted: 4/24/2012 4:49:14 PM EST
I like it! Good for you for saving a few $ which will easily go to more ammo for it!
It's ok because each pull of the trigger is firing 1 bullet...... Not a machine gun.......it's like he is pulling the trigger really really fast

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Link Posted: 4/24/2012 4:51:32 PM EST
As I said, this is an UGLY prototype, it was mainly to make sure it is going to work.
The second one, which I SHOULD have done in the next week or so will look much better.

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Link Posted: 4/24/2012 4:52:05 PM EST
[Last Edit: 4/24/2012 4:53:21 PM EST by InfiniteGrim]
Dont put your finger on the trigger until your ready to fire

Good job making your own. $350 is outrageous for what it is.

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Link Posted: 4/24/2012 4:54:38 PM EST
You know what, I usually don't, and I did catch myself doing that. I am big safety whore myself. Thanks for noticing LOL. Just tell EVERYONE about the hair in your food why don't ya?

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Link Posted: 4/24/2012 4:56:51 PM EST
Originally Posted By brodband8:
You know what, I usually don't, and I did catch myself doing that. I am big safety whore myself. Thanks for noticing LOL. Just tell EVERYONE about the hair in your food why don't ya?


A thread without someone nitpicking, doesn't belong on arfcom

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Link Posted: 4/24/2012 4:57:37 PM EST
Originally Posted By brodband8:
Alright bud, calm down. I thought the idea up and created it, in less than 24 hours total.
I saved 350 bucks, and had a lot of fun. Are you not understanding this? Also I have NO plans
to sell this. It may be ugly, but it works, and it works just fine. Wait till you see the second one.
You have NO idea how much better it is going to be. As I said, just trying to have some fun,
no illegal intentions whatsoever, private use only.


Chill... I am simply pointing out facts you need to consider in what you are building.

You are starting out much as the Slidefire guy did several years ago. He had an idea, he developed it much as you are doing, and then he spent several hundred thousand dollars, taking it to market.

He also spent tens of thousands of dollars getting the patent. As long as you are building for your personal use it would not likely draw any attention. but still an infringement.

Honestly, I am not busting your balls, you have built a replica and it seems to work well. Just don't go into business selling them

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Link Posted: 4/24/2012 5:02:33 PM EST
I understand where you are coming from, and am glad you pointed it out.
I'm the tinkerer, and not so much of a salesman. Even if I had the ability to sell it,
and the rights to do so, I don't think I would be able to. I don't really possess the know
how to get a business going.

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Link Posted: 4/24/2012 5:09:32 PM EST
[Last Edit: 4/24/2012 5:12:40 PM EST by brodband8]
What's funny about all of this, is that I saved 350 dollars doing this, and will probably spend way more in ammo for sure.
So far I have only shot like 150 rounds or so through it, but can see way more rounds coming. The rifle in this video was
not mine, it was my friend Kyle's. I needed one with a removable butt stock, as my AR has the Magpul M93 on it. I didn't want
to drill into that stock by any means.

This is going to sound kind of odd, but I am going to end up buying a second lower, so I can just keep my bump fire stock on that,
and switch out lowers when I want to shoot single shot. That is the main reason I am making another stock, so that I can make
sure it looks and works as I would like.

Hopefully for the next video I'm thinking, CMAG full of tracers, SPR/M4, and night time shooting.

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Link Posted: 4/24/2012 5:22:57 PM EST
[Last Edit: 4/24/2012 5:25:18 PM EST by stevec22]
Originally Posted By brodband8:
What's funny about all of this, is that I saved 350 dollars doing this, and will probably spend way more in ammo for sure.
So far I have only shot like 150 rounds or so through it, but can see way more rounds coming.
The rifle in this video was
not mine, it was my friend Kyle's. I needed one with a removable butt stock, as my AR has the Magpul M93 on it. I didn't want
to drill into that stock by any means.
.


This is what I tell people in my shop. The cost of the ammo far exceeds the cost of the stock.

ETA: 1000 rounds at 600 rounds a minute= 2 minutes trigger time

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Link Posted: 4/24/2012 5:34:46 PM EST
This is true. I'm pretty sure the sensation of shooting this is going to die off fast.
By then I will be able to actually keep some ammo. But where I'm going with this
is just a show off toy to show every once in a while. Maybe if friends come in town
and want to go shooting or something, I can show it to them, stuff like that. Not an
everyday thing.

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Link Posted: 4/24/2012 5:41:22 PM EST
Pretty sweet dude....and it looks better than the $350 one.

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Link Posted: 4/24/2012 5:45:52 PM EST
Honestly, even with the huge bar sticking out the back, I also think so, but this next one I'm making is going to eliminate that bar entirely.
Y'all just hang in there, I might have some time to work on it later tonight.

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Link Posted: 4/24/2012 6:38:12 PM EST
Hold out for the $40 Chinese version...
I'll save my thoughts on the people who can spend any amount of dollars on a rifle but can't devote 20 minutes to getting their body in shape for another thread. -skinnysarge79
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Link Posted: 4/24/2012 6:57:34 PM EST
personally i think the whole bump fire thing is silly, but you did make something yourself that works and you like it, so good going. can't knock a guy for trying something. still, seems like an excuse for a mag dump. thing i enjoyed the most was the audio on the clip."bbbbbbbbbbb BOOM!"

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Link Posted: 4/24/2012 7:04:38 PM EST
Originally Posted By stevec22:
As long as you are building for your personal use it would not likely draw any attention. but still an infringement.

Honestly, I am not busting your balls, you have built a replica and it seems to work well. Just don't go into business selling them


Really? Lecturing the guy and then telling him his contraption is ugly isn't ball-busting?

Brodband, I like it, it looks cool as hell, and it is a cheap alternative for those of us who would like the option of trying controlled bumpfire without plunking down $350 to do so.

I have always thought the SlideFire was neat, but if I did get one, the novelty would probably wear off fast (ammo = $$ as you said). With your contraption, I could do it without burning through three and a half c notes.

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Link Posted: 4/24/2012 7:10:38 PM EST
Am I just crazy? I keep reading comment after comment saying that this is UGLIER than the slidefire... I think it looks WAY better! As in, cool even besides what it does. I'm impressed and inspired. Also what's with all the copywrite concern? You can machine an entire Ar-15 in your garage if you want to. As I understand it, If it's not for sale then it's not a problem.

As far as the legality of it is concerned, it works on exactly the same principle as the currently BATF legal slidefire stock without any change whatsoever, as far as I can tell. If you just print out a copy of the BATF letter that comes with the slidefire stock and keep that handy it should clear up any concern anyone would have. Of course if the slidefire ever gets ruled as illegal, then I imagine this would too.

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Link Posted: 4/24/2012 10:14:21 PM EST
That's actually pretty clever. Simple too.

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Link Posted: 4/25/2012 9:04:44 AM EST
Pretty slick. Sure beats the crap out of $350 and still looks ok to me. Can't wait to see your 2nd gen one.

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Link Posted: 4/25/2012 9:46:54 AM EST
[Last Edit: 4/25/2012 9:47:03 AM EST by notwen]
Very nice Op. looking forward to seeing version 2.0. =]

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Link Posted: 4/25/2012 11:10:53 AM EST
[Last Edit: 4/25/2012 11:37:31 AM EST by gmtech825]
this idea is stupid and pointless because i didn't think of it first!


i like it. looking forward to seeing the gen2.

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Link Posted: 4/25/2012 11:19:49 AM EST
[Last Edit: 4/25/2012 11:20:41 AM EST by bluefalcon]
Good job, dude. Fuck the haters. Fuck 'em right in their sandy vaginas.

Your stock works and anyone commenting on how it looks likely hasn't fired a round in months.

"You can keep your land of ordinances and slavery to decorum, I will shoot my machine gun off my front porch, naked, while drinking Jack Daniels from the bottle, and pretend America isnt dead." - RustedAce
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Link Posted: 4/25/2012 11:28:39 AM EST
[Last Edit: 4/25/2012 11:28:54 AM EST by doubleshot00]
OP are ya going to post a "How to" on this

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Link Posted: 4/25/2012 11:36:54 AM EST
Cool DIY project OP!
NRA Endowment
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Link Posted: 4/25/2012 11:37:05 AM EST
Originally Posted By doubleshot00:
OP are ya going to post a "How to" on this





THIS!!!

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Link Posted: 4/26/2012 6:29:00 AM EST
I am pretty sure the lecturing guy knows the owner of Slide fire based on his knowledge of the amounts spent on development. There is no infringement unless used for sales. So pretty much he can go pound salt and was not here to have any positive comments. I personally decided I will be making one of these based on your videos. Mine will be used on a CMMG .22 upper. I will have about $40 into it but already have those parts laying in a spare parts box not doing anything. So nice work and thanks for sharing!!!

Thanks,
Ghilly

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Link Posted: 4/26/2012 6:52:14 AM EST
[Last Edit: 4/26/2012 6:52:37 AM EST by TheRedGoat]
If you used a Dremel and removed the material between the stop positions on that collapsible tube, you would not need to turn the keeper sideways. It would just ride in the channel.

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Link Posted: 4/26/2012 6:59:58 AM EST
[Last Edit: 4/26/2012 8:54:31 AM EST by RIPPER334]
Considering how different the two stocks are, I really don't see how there could possibly be any copyright infringement. The OP's design is clearly different than SF's, other than theory... and if you base infringement on theory, I would think that slidefire would be in hot water ...cause Bill Akins had already brought to market, a "bumpfire" stock, that basically works the same, but looks different.


Using a stock buffertube, a stock "stock", different attaching point, modified grip... all different from Slidefire.


I like it OP ....HELL, I'd buy one if the price was right.... but the same goes for the Akins and the Slidefire. Price point has kept me from owning either. That said, I hope they sell more than they can make, and make a killing doing it. They just wont be selling one to me at 300+ bucks.
This signature space for rent ... [img]smiley_crossbones.gif[/img]
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Link Posted: 4/26/2012 8:22:27 AM EST
One really nice feature about this is that it is ambidextrous. Nice job!

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Link Posted: 4/26/2012 9:06:33 AM EST
[Last Edit: 4/26/2012 9:21:20 AM EST by crashagn]
How would this be any type of infringement?? If he is not going to be selling it and it is only for personal use then their should no issues what so ever with copyrights. I would be more concerned if the local law enforcement stopped by and asking questions. If I whittlled down a stick and made a fishing pole for myself to use, do you think Berkley is going to come after me? Dont think so.


Well done OP, looks like from the videos it works perty dang smoothly.



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Link Posted: 4/26/2012 10:20:09 AM EST
I guess I am the "lecturing guy" referenced above. I was not intending to "lecture" the OP. Just trying to give a little advise.

If someone builds a devise that is patented, then they have infringed on a patent. This is almost never pursued (if you are building for yourself), however if the OP had friends that said "hey, that is cool, build me one" then that could cause the OP a world of problems if the patent holder wanted to pursue the issue.

The patent on the Slidefire was issued on the concept of the slide action of the receiver in a stock. So even though the OP's device doesn't look similar, the operation is the same. I am pretty sure that Slidefire isn't looking for individuals building their own slide stock, so that they can sue to have a "cease and desist" order against them. As an example, Larry Seecamp patented th double helix recoil spring used in the first Seecamp .32. He now collects royalties/ license fees from many gun manufacturers. He sued one of the first that incorporated the spring system into their. handgun and won his case

Regarding my comment about the stock being "ugly". Yeah, that was just a comment made tongue in cheek. Anyone notice the LOL? Since the SSAR-15 first hit the market the two major negative comments made were related to the cost and how ugly it was. With the OP's device, it is rough and ugly with the exposed screws and plates bolted on. I am sure if he develops a second version, he could clean it up.

Yes, I know the developer of the Slidefire. He is married to my niece. I have been selling these retail since they first hit the market.

FYI. I do not take orders/ sell on AR15.com, so please do not email or IM me to ask. There are several Industry partners here that do sell them. Contact one of them if you want top buy one.






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Link Posted: 4/26/2012 10:48:46 AM EST
[Last Edit: 4/26/2012 10:54:16 AM EST by zulthor]
Originally Posted By brodband8:
Alright bud, calm down. I thought the idea up and created it, in less than 24 hours total.
I saved 350 bucks, and had a lot of fun. Are you not understanding this? Also I have NO plans
to sell this. It may be ugly, but it works, and it works just fine. Wait till you see the second one.
You have NO idea how much better it is going to be. As I said, just trying to have some fun,
no illegal intentions whatsoever, private use only.


If you make, use, sell ,offer for sale, or import something that falls within the claims of a patented invention you've infringed on their patent.

Looks to me that you made it, and used it...if that thing fell within the claims of his patent...

If It was my patent, I would send you a C & D and consider suing you.

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Link Posted: 4/26/2012 11:12:09 AM EST
way to use your noodle. A+

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Link Posted: 4/26/2012 11:56:55 AM EST
Originally Posted By zulthor:
Originally Posted By brodband8:
Alright bud, calm down. I thought the idea up and created it, in less than 24 hours total.
I saved 350 bucks, and had a lot of fun. Are you not understanding this? Also I have NO plans
to sell this. It may be ugly, but it works, and it works just fine. Wait till you see the second one.
You have NO idea how much better it is going to be. As I said, just trying to have some fun,
no illegal intentions whatsoever, private use only.


If you make, use, sell ,offer for sale, or import something that falls within the claims of a patented invention you've infringed on their patent.

Looks to me that you made it, and used it...if that thing fell within the claims of his patent...

If It was my patent, I would send you a C & D and consider suing you.


I bet you're a fun guy to be around.
I'll save my thoughts on the people who can spend any amount of dollars on a rifle but can't devote 20 minutes to getting their body in shape for another thread. -skinnysarge79
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Link Posted: 4/26/2012 12:10:37 PM EST
coolest thread of the day

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Link Posted: 4/26/2012 12:26:32 PM EST
[Last Edit: 4/26/2012 12:27:09 PM EST by zulthor]
Originally Posted By maleante:
Originally Posted By zulthor:
Originally Posted By brodband8:
Alright bud, calm down. I thought the idea up and created it, in less than 24 hours total.
I saved 350 bucks, and had a lot of fun. Are you not understanding this? Also I have NO plans
to sell this. It may be ugly, but it works, and it works just fine. Wait till you see the second one.
You have NO idea how much better it is going to be. As I said, just trying to have some fun,
no illegal intentions whatsoever, private use only.


If you make, use, sell ,offer for sale, or import something that falls within the claims of a patented invention you've infringed on their patent.

Looks to me that you made it, and used it...if that thing fell within the claims of his patent...

If It was my patent, I would send you a C & D and consider suing you.


I bet you're a fun guy to be around.


As someone who's invented things in the past and brought them to market, I understand how much it sucks to have someone copy your invention. It's easy to take someone idea and replicate it. It's a lot harder to come up with good, valuable, original ideas.

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Link Posted: 4/26/2012 12:43:15 PM EST
Originally Posted By zulthor:
Originally Posted By maleante:
Originally Posted By zulthor:
Originally Posted By brodband8:
Alright bud, calm down. I thought the idea up and created it, in less than 24 hours total.
I saved 350 bucks, and had a lot of fun. Are you not understanding this? Also I have NO plans
to sell this. It may be ugly, but it works, and it works just fine. Wait till you see the second one.
You have NO idea how much better it is going to be. As I said, just trying to have some fun,
no illegal intentions whatsoever, private use only.


If you make, use, sell ,offer for sale, or import something that falls within the claims of a patented invention you've infringed on their patent.

Looks to me that you made it, and used it...if that thing fell within the claims of his patent...

If It was my patent, I would send you a C & D and consider suing you.


I bet you're a fun guy to be around.


As someone who's invented things in the past and brought them to market, I understand how much it sucks to have someone copy your invention. It's easy to take someone idea and replicate it. It's a lot harder to come up with good, valuable, original ideas.


Like the idea is so complicated. Maybe if they sold the things at a reasonable price people would just buy the thing. Plus the OP's design is very different.


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Link Posted: 4/26/2012 12:50:30 PM EST
Originally Posted By zulthor:
Originally Posted By maleante:
Originally Posted By zulthor:
Originally Posted By brodband8:
Alright bud, calm down. I thought the idea up and created it, in less than 24 hours total.
I saved 350 bucks, and had a lot of fun. Are you not understanding this? Also I have NO plans
to sell this. It may be ugly, but it works, and it works just fine. Wait till you see the second one.
You have NO idea how much better it is going to be. As I said, just trying to have some fun,
no illegal intentions whatsoever, private use only.


If you make, use, sell ,offer for sale, or import something that falls within the claims of a patented invention you've infringed on their patent.

Looks to me that you made it, and used it...if that thing fell within the claims of his patent...

If It was my patent, I would send you a C & D and consider suing you.


I bet you're a fun guy to be around.


As someone who's invented things in the past and brought them to market, I understand how much it sucks to have someone copy your invention. It's easy to take someone idea and replicate it. It's a lot harder to come up with good, valuable, original ideas.


Only problem I have with that, the Slidefire was NOT an original idea either. it had already been offered albeit a different platform... but the idea was the same and actually patented. The execution might have been original, but not the theory behind it.



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Link Posted: 4/26/2012 1:25:29 PM EST
Originally Posted By InfiniteGrim:
Like the idea is so complicated. Maybe if they sold the things at a reasonable price people would just buy the thing. Plus the OP's design is very different.


Specific design choices are not relevant to whether something infringes a patent - that depends if an implementation of the ideas falls within the areas claimed by the patent.

For an old example, colt and smith and wesson revolvers differ in design details quite a bit, but until Colt's patent ran out, all smith and wesson could do was make god-awful revolving barrel pistols, as ANYTHING which used a revolving chamber and one barrel was covered by the Colt patent.

I'm expecting Akins to let slidefire build up some sales, then sue them and take all their profits, based on infringing his patent. Even though Akins' first implementation used springs, his patent claims any device which facilitates the use of recoil in a firearm to achieve full automatic or near full-automatic rates of fire.
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Link Posted: 4/26/2012 1:37:31 PM EST
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Link Posted: 4/26/2012 1:48:40 PM EST
Originally Posted By Circuits:


I'm expecting Akins to let slidefire build up some sales, then sue them and take all their profits, based on infringing his patent. Even though Akins' first implementation used springs, his patent claims any device which facilitates the use of recoil in a firearm to achieve full automatic or near full-automatic rates of fire.


Akins sold his patent rights to Fostech recently and Fostech designed and built the "bumpski" stock for the AK using his patent.

There has been litigation filed already in Indiana and who knows how it will shake out in the courts.

I do know that SlideFire had their patent attorney advise them that Akins patent would not be prohibit the design/ manufacture of the original SSAR-15. Who knows if that will be how the courts see the issue. Apparently there were enough holes in the Akins patent to allow Slidefire to be comfortable going to production

Slidefire has also recently had their patent approved at the patent office, for what ever that is worth


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