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Trumpet
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Posted: 5/17/2009 3:46:34 PM
So, how many of you use a torque wrench on the castle nut? How tight do you make it if you don't? Also, I normally just stake mine. Should I consider loc-tite AND staking?

What do you do?
كافر
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Elvis-Ar15
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Posted: 5/17/2009 4:17:19 PM
[Last Edit: 5/17/2009 4:17:34 PM by Elvis-Ar15]
I just tighten it as tight as I can get it without getting stupid and call it good. Havn't had one come loose yet.
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Trumpet
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Posted: 5/17/2009 4:34:23 PM
If I do go with a torque wrench, do I use it in conjunction with an armorer's wrench? What castle nut wrench will accomodate a torque wrench?
كافر
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QUIB
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Posted: 5/17/2009 7:53:16 PM
No torque wrench for me.

I apply a small drop of Blue Loctite, tighten with my DPMS Armorers Wrench, and stake the nut in place.
“ Seek not the favor of the multitude, but seek the testimony of the few. And number not voices, but weigh them.”
Winn
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Posted: 5/17/2009 8:34:26 PM
[Last Edit: 5/17/2009 8:40:30 PM by Winn]

I do believe that there is a torque spec listed here on the site ... BUT be careful, as it is listed in inch -lbs rather than ft.-lbs

Also ... IF you stake it properly, IMO loctite is completely UN-necessary, and can even end up being more trouble than what it's worth if you ever want to remove the nut.


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Trumpet
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Posted: 5/17/2009 9:26:44 PM
Yep I found it 40 +/- 2.

Not sure if I want to go that route or not. Maybe I'll just go with the blue loctite,stake method. Just how tight (how much "oomph") do I want to give it?
كافر
"Take care of your asshole, gentlemen, and it will take care of you. Its the only one you'll ever have." - axl
Winn
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Posted: 5/17/2009 9:42:35 PM
[Last Edit: 5/17/2009 9:45:09 PM by Winn]
Originally Posted By Trumpet:

Yep I found it 40 +/- 2.

Not sure if I want to go that route or not. Maybe I'll just go with the blue loctite,stake method. Just how tight (how much "oomph") do I want to give it?


That's the big question / "problem" .

There are no interwebz measurements for each individual's *oomph* factor, so it can end up being a huge variable ...


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ZekeMenuar
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Posted: 5/17/2009 9:46:01 PM
Tighten up snug with your weak hand. Leave the cheater bar alone.
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WildEyedSouthernBoy
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Posted: 5/17/2009 10:46:22 PM
[Last Edit: 5/17/2009 10:48:16 PM by WildEyedSouthernBoy]
Are you guys sure about the in-lbs? Both of my shop manuals list 38-42 ft-lbs .
GHPorter
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Posted: 5/17/2009 10:47:26 PM
Originally Posted By Winn:

I do believe that there is a torque spec listed here on the site ... BUT be careful, as it is listed in inch -lbs rather than ft.-lbs
Did we ever hash that out authoritatively? I have mine "nice and tight" and have decided to relook the staking I did-I was sort of hesitant to hit it too hard since my "staking tool" is more of a field expedient device (old screwdriver with a hand-dressed tip).

"--you can't conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."
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Winn
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Posted: 5/17/2009 11:39:35 PM
[Last Edit: 5/18/2009 12:08:24 AM by Winn]
Originally Posted By GHPorter:

Originally Posted By Winn:

I do believe that there is a torque spec listed here on the site ... BUT be careful, as it is listed in inch -lbs rather than ft.-lbs


Did we ever hash that out authoritatively? I have mine "nice and tight" and have decided to relook the staking I did-I was sort of hesitant to hit it too hard since my "staking tool" is more of a field expedient device (old screwdriver with a hand-dressed tip).



Don't know if it was ever hashed out authoritatively or not ... however, if it ever was - *I* certainly wouldn't have been the authority on it.



Anyway, I can remember reading that "spec" a number of times - but reading without "comprehending" - as I always interpreted what I had "read" in terms of FOOT lbs.

BUT, when it finally came time to *apply* it, all I could think was "... man, 40 foot lbs seems like a LOT - that's more than half the torque required for the lugs to keep the wheels on my car ..."

And then at some point it finally occurred to me that what I had been reading all along was inch lbs, and not foot lbs.


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skulpin
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Posted: 5/18/2009 11:49:46 AM
I would tend to agree with Ken Elmore. It depends on the quality of the receiver extension ie: forged or extruded. I don't knowingly buy junk parts. Ken eludes to ripping the extension out of the lower although I've never seen nor heard of it happening...but anyway, check out page 2 of this thread and the reply by jws360.

Click Here...

Originally Posted By jws360:
I think I have an answer:

Sent a message to Ken at Sawlesales.com, who sells Colt parts. Here is his response:

There is a HUGE difference between a forged and an extruded rec extension. You are looking at fixed stock (rifle) rec extensions.
The extruded items are softer, much lower quality items. The kind of stuff you find on aftermarket-junk guns.

All torque values on the M16/M4 are in FT/LBS, except the screws which hold the key in place.

Yes, the rec extension nut should be correctly stakes, as designed. No, loctite is not an alternative.

Take Care,
Ken

Ken Elmore

Specialized Armament (1990 - Present)
Instructor, COLT Defense (1997 - 2007)
Sergeant, US Army (1986 - 1990)



This is a debate that will never be won.
afmdss306
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Posted: 5/18/2009 4:07:35 PM
Are you guys talking about the buffer tube nut or the barrel nut? What the hell is staking? Sorry, newb here
GHPorter
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Posted: 5/18/2009 6:21:55 PM
Originally Posted By afmdss306:
Are you guys talking about the buffer tube nut or the barrel nut? What the hell is staking? Sorry, newb here


The "receiver extension," sometimes called the "buffer tube," for a collapsible stock is secured in place with a castle nut. It's called a castle nut because its circular profile with square cutouts looks like the top of a castle's turret. Staking is displacing metal, in this case from the receiver end plate (that's the plate that holds in the takedown pin detent and spring) into the notches in the castle nut to prevent it from turning.

That help?
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j3_
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Posted: 5/18/2009 6:24:06 PM
Originally Posted By skulpin:
I would tend to agree with Ken Elmore. It depends on the quality of the receiver extension ie: forged or extruded. I don't knowingly buy junk parts. Ken eludes to ripping the extension out of the lower although I've never seen nor heard of it happening...but anyway, check out page 2 of this thread and the reply by jws360.

Click Here...

Originally Posted By jws360:
I think I have an answer:

Sent a message to Ken at Sawlesales.com, who sells Colt parts. Here is his response:

There is a HUGE difference between a forged and an extruded rec extension. You are looking at fixed stock (rifle) rec extensions.
The extruded items are softer, much lower quality items. The kind of stuff you find on aftermarket-junk guns.

All torque values on the M16/M4 are in FT/LBS, except the screws which hold the key in place.

Yes, the rec extension nut should be correctly stakes, as designed. No, loctite is not an alternative.

Take Care,
Ken

Ken Elmore

Specialized Armament (1990 - Present)
Instructor, COLT Defense (1997 - 2007)
Sergeant, US Army (1986 - 1990)



This is a debate that will never be won.


I posted a link I think early in that thread to the Colt manual that says it is foot pounds. The advice posted above is as good as it gets. The use of loctite causes the tube to try turning with the nut when loosened and you run the risk of gouging out the tube thread by the alignment part of the plate.
Ryo
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Posted: 5/18/2009 6:26:13 PM
There's a torque wrench for the castle nut? Never seen that before.. be interested in seeing what that looks like. Any case I just tighten it as much as possible then stake it. That's how the professionals do it (Noveske, LMT, etc) so I do that too. I would imagine loctite would work good too.
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Posted: 5/18/2009 6:37:25 PM
Nope. Use the M4 stock wrench from Brownells. It has a 1/2" square hole for a torque wrench.
كافر
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afmdss306
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Posted: 5/18/2009 6:43:29 PM
Originally Posted By GHPorter:
Originally Posted By afmdss306:
Are you guys talking about the buffer tube nut or the barrel nut? What the hell is staking? Sorry, newb here


The "receiver extension," sometimes called the "buffer tube," for a collapsible stock is secured in place with a castle nut. It's called a castle nut because its circular profile with square cutouts looks like the top of a castle's turret. Staking is displacing metal, in this case from the receiver end plate (that's the plate that holds in the takedown pin detent and spring) into the notches in the castle nut to prevent it from turning.

That help?


Yep. Thanks!
Ryo
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Posted: 5/18/2009 6:59:19 PM
Originally Posted By Trumpet:
Nope. Use the M4 stock wrench from Brownells. It has a 1/2" square hole for a torque wrench.


I don't think that hole was meant for torque wrench.. looking at the description at Brownells, they didn't mention the usage of torque wrench. Also being off set from the center, the torque wrench will not be exactly the torque of the castle nut, assuming your using a socket torque wrench.
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Trumpet
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Posted: 5/18/2009 9:02:48 PM
Originally Posted By Ryo:
Originally Posted By Trumpet:
Nope. Use the M4 stock wrench from Brownells. It has a 1/2" square hole for a torque wrench.


I don't think that hole was meant for torque wrench.. looking at the description at Brownells, they didn't mention the usage of torque wrench. Also being off set from the center, the torque wrench will not be exactly the torque of the castle nut, assuming your using a socket torque wrench.


http://www.brownells.com/aspx/ns/store/ProductDetail.aspx?p=21254&title=AR-15%2fM16%2fM4+BUTTSTOCK+TOOL

It is meant for a torque wrench. Either you're looking at a different wrench, or you didn't read the whole description
كافر
"Take care of your asshole, gentlemen, and it will take care of you. Its the only one you'll ever have." - axl
Ryo
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Posted: 5/18/2009 11:22:34 PM
[Last Edit: 5/19/2009 12:55:06 AM by Ryo]
Originally Posted By Trumpet:
Originally Posted By Ryo:
Originally Posted By Trumpet:
Nope. Use the M4 stock wrench from Brownells. It has a 1/2" square hole for a torque wrench.


I don't think that hole was meant for torque wrench.. looking at the description at Brownells, they didn't mention the usage of torque wrench. Also being off set from the center, the torque wrench will not be exactly the torque of the castle nut, assuming your using a socket torque wrench.


http://www.brownells.com/aspx/ns/store/ProductDetail.aspx?p=21254&title=AR-15%2fM16%2fM4+BUTTSTOCK+TOOL

It is meant for a torque wrench. Either you're looking at a different wrench, or you didn't read the whole description


This wrench didn't come up on my search words so I didn't see this one. Saw 3 others. Thanks for the link
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SSeric02
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Posted: 5/19/2009 12:42:14 AM
Originally Posted By Elvis-Ar15:
I just tighten it as tight as I can get it without getting stupid and call it good. Havn't had one come loose yet.


I don't have a torque wrench, so I do this. But also stake the nut in two places per the TM with an automatic center punch. I would not ever use Loctite or another thread locker on a castle nut.
titan7
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Posted: 5/19/2009 1:56:07 AM
I just tighten it up firmly, never had an issue.
Winn
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Posted: 5/19/2009 11:27:23 AM
Originally Posted By j3_:
Originally Posted By skulpin:
I would tend to agree with Ken Elmore. It depends on the quality of the receiver extension ie: forged or extruded. I don't knowingly buy junk parts. Ken eludes to ripping the extension out of the lower although I've never seen nor heard of it happening...but anyway, check out page 2 of this thread and the reply by jws360.

Click Here...

Originally Posted By jws360:
I think I have an answer:

Sent a message to Ken at Sawlesales.com, who sells Colt parts. Here is his response:

There is a HUGE difference between a forged and an extruded rec extension. You are looking at fixed stock (rifle) rec extensions.
The extruded items are softer, much lower quality items. The kind of stuff you find on aftermarket-junk guns.

All torque values on the M16/M4 are in FT/LBS, except the screws which hold the key in place.

Yes, the rec extension nut should be correctly stakes, as designed. No, loctite is not an alternative.

Take Care,
Ken

Ken Elmore

Specialized Armament (1990 - Present)
Instructor, COLT Defense (1997 - 2007)
Sergeant, US Army (1986 - 1990)



This is a debate that will never be won.


I posted a link I think early in that thread to the Colt manual that says it is foot pounds. The advice posted above is as good as it gets. The use of loctite causes the tube to try turning with the nut when loosened and you run the risk of gouging out the tube thread by the alignment part of the plate.



While I understand what you're saying, quite honestly I'd be even more interested in knowing what "values" that Paul at BCM or Steve at ADCO use, and if they happened to differ (e.g. say to use INCH lbs. rather than FT. lbs - or whatever) then I'd likely go with their input instead ... with 100% confidence.

YMMV.


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QUIB
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Posted: 5/19/2009 1:15:03 PM
Originally Posted By j3_:
The use of loctite causes the tube to try turning with the nut when loosened and you run the risk of gouging out the tube thread by the alignment part of the plate.


Guess that would depend on the mechanical aptitude of the installer/remover.

I've personally never had a problem with a drop of blue Loctite.
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Posted: 5/19/2009 10:10:31 PM
[Last Edit: 5/19/2009 10:13:15 PM by j3_]
Originally Posted By QUIB:
Originally Posted By j3_:
The use of loctite causes the tube to try turning with the nut when loosened and you run the risk of gouging out the tube thread by the alignment part of the plate.


Guess that would depend on the mechanical aptitude of the installer/remover.

I've personally never had a problem with a drop of blue Loctite.


I stick to the manual and grease it. Never have tried to torque one. I tighten it by with the wrench by hand and then tap the wrench a few times with a bar to seat it.

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