 Easy_E
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Posted: 11/23/2008 5:56:52 PM
Originally Posted By bushflyr:
Originally Posted By Easy_E:
There is another way to pin it on without a welder. A local gunsmith showed me this . Drill a hole through the flash hider and in to the barrel slightly. Pull the hider back off and tap the hole with threads. Reinstall the flash hider with the threaded hole lined up with the hole in the barrel. Take a extra long set screw with loctite and thread it into the hole. It should bottom out in the hole and leave the head above the surface. Now grind off the head and shape to the hider. If your careful you only need to touch up the round shiny spot. That method is entirely serviceable, but, IIRC, not legal as the law is currently written. I'm not sure how the batmen would go about proving it, but I'm sure they could come up with something.  You could, maybe, use that method but silver solder the pin in place by applying the heat to the exposed end of the set screw prior to grinding it off. But then you're messing about in lawyer land with the fine points of a law that the batmen don't even know what it really means. Most likely you'll never have to worry about it, but...  I don't know the exact wording of the law but I read permanently installed. If this is not permanent I don't know what is. The only way to uninstall is to drill the set screw because you ground off the hex part. actually this is more secure than the pin because you have to drill the whole thing not just the welded top. |
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Posted: 11/23/2008 6:56:15 PM
Originally Posted By Easy_E:
Originally Posted By bushflyr:
Originally Posted By Easy_E:
There is another way to pin it on without a welder. A local gunsmith showed me this . Drill a hole through the flash hider and in to the barrel slightly. Pull the hider back off and tap the hole with threads. Reinstall the flash hider with the threaded hole lined up with the hole in the barrel. Take a extra long set screw with loctite and thread it into the hole. It should bottom out in the hole and leave the head above the surface. Now grind off the head and shape to the hider. If your careful you only need to touch up the round shiny spot. That method is entirely serviceable, but, IIRC, not legal as the law is currently written. I'm not sure how the batmen would go about proving it, but I'm sure they could come up with something. You could, maybe, use that method but silver solder the pin in place by applying the heat to the exposed end of the set screw prior to grinding it off. But then you're messing about in lawyer land with the fine points of a law that the batmen don't even know what it really means. Most likely you'll never have to worry about it, but... I don't know the exact wording of the law but I read permanently installed. If this is not permanent I don't know what is. The only way to uninstall is to drill the set screw because you ground off the hex part. actually this is more secure than the pin because you have to drill the whole thing not just the welded top. I don't know a link to it, but I'm 99% positive you have to weld the top of the pin according to the ATF. Three ATF approved methods are: 1. Pin & Weld (weld the top of the pin) 2. Weld around the entire base of the FH 3. 1100 deg silver soder method (as discussed above) |
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Posted: 11/23/2008 7:39:37 PM
Originally Posted By Jazer:
I don't know the exact wording of the law but I read permanently installed. If this is not permanent I don't know what is. The only way to uninstall is to drill the set screw because you ground off the hex part. actually this is more secure than the pin because you have to drill the whole thing not just the welded top. I don't know a link to it, but I'm 99% positive you have to weld the top of the pin according to the ATF. Three ATF approved methods are: 1. Pin & Weld (weld the top of the pin) 2. Weld around the entire base of the FH 3. 1100 deg silver soder method (as discussed above) Actually you are incorrect about the pin thing as per BATFE although this could have changed since manufactures do pin and weld. DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms Washington, D.C. 20226 JUN 18 1998 F:FPD:FTB:RAT 3311 Dear Mr. : This refers to your letter of March 31, 1998, in which you ask about permanently attaching a muzzle device to various firearms. A muzzle device, such as a muzzle brake or barrel extension, which is attached to a barrel by means of welding or high temperature silver solder having a melting point of at least 1,100 degrees Fahrenheit, is considered to be part of the barrel for purposes of measurement. A seam weld extending at least one-half the circumference of the barrel or four equidistant tack welds around the circumference of the barrel are adequate for this purpose. A firearm having a muzzle brake, cap, or barrel extension permanently attached by those same methods to cover the threads on a barrel, would not be considered to have a threaded muzzle. Please note, however, that any muzzle device or barrel extension which functions as a flash suppressor or grenade launcher would still constitute one of the qualifying features of a semiautomatic assault weapon as that term is defined in 18 U.S.C. section 921(a)(30(B). Industrial adhesive products are not an acceptable method for permanently attaching a muzzle device. - 2 - Mr. We trust that the foregoing has been responsive to your inquiry. If you have further questions concerning this matter, please contact us. Sincerely yours, [signed] Edward M. Owen, Jr. Chief, Firearms Technology Branch |
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INTrooper4255
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Posted: 12/6/2008 2:30:40 PM
I'm wanting to remove a pinned Vortex on my 14.5 inch MRP barrel and replace it with a permenatly attached FSC556. I would think that silver soldering would be the best method to attach the new FSC556, so that I wouldn't have to have 2 extra holes drilled, which I don't want. Does anyone know of anyone that silver solders, since I would have no idea how to do it?
Thanks |
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Posted: 12/12/2008 10:21:43 AM
I believe silicone would be ok to use, just make sure it's the red high temp stuff.
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Posted: 12/12/2008 11:12:19 AM
From the How too section of this forum:
How to permanently attach a muzzle device: If you have a barrel that is 14.5", you must permanently attach a muzzle device that makes the total lenght 16" or more. Best to go 16.1" at least to be safe. For the 14.5" barrel, it is commonly accepted to use the Vortex or Phantom style of flash supressors. The ATF states to be permanently attached, the muzzle device cannot be removed with hand tools easily and must use 1100 degree silver solder, blind pinnned and welded, or welded completely around the barrel. This writeup will demonstrate the most common method, the blind pin and weld. This was originally posted by wildearp, I am just using the basics of his post for this section: Start by predrilling the muzzle device through one side - while removed from the barrel. The drill size should be the same diameter as your pin size. Coat hanger works great.: 
Next - attach the muzzle device, time it with a peel or crush washer, and then drill into the barrel, using the hole in the muzzle device as a guide. A drill press works well here, to ensure you do not drill too deep. If you penetrate the bore you will destroy the accuracy of the barrel - go slow here. You only need to drill deep enough to accept the pin. 
It should look like this: 
Now we are ready to insert the pin.... this is coat hanger, cut to fit.: 
Before welding, cover the barrel well to ensure you dont mark it up with welding splatter. Wrap it well. Melted adhesive comes off. Welding splatter doesnt so well. (another great option here is to wrap the barrel surfaces with a few layers of aluminum foil.... no adhesive mess. 
A pic after welding. At this point - you can hit it with a dremel, or sander, to blend it in (careful!!!) Then hit it with some cold blue to darken it. 
Installed: 
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INTrooper4255
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Posted: 12/12/2008 1:57:42 PM
I got my FSC556 attached yesterday on my MRP 14.5 by means of solver soldering. The outcome was very good, there was a slight discoloration of the muzzle device, but the remainder of the barrel was fine. I used Brownells Heat Stop on the barrel and the muzzle device, except for the threaded area where we were heating it. I got home and cleaned it up with some Break Free and here are the results:
I think in the future, I will be using this method to permenately attach muzzle devices instead of the blind pin method. |
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WayneG
I just threw your stinkin' palm tree overboard!
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Posted: 12/12/2008 2:06:28 PM
Nice job!
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Posted: 12/16/2008 1:38:50 PM
+1 The solder job looks very clean. I was debating which way to go myself, that sold it for me, thanks!!
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Posted: 12/16/2008 4:45:23 PM
1000 degree silver is too easy (on or off) for me to bother with any other method.
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WayneG
I just threw your stinkin' palm tree overboard!
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Posted: 12/16/2008 11:39:09 PM
Originally Posted By MEatVt:
1000 degree silver is too easy (on or off) for me to bother with any other method. Just in case any BATFers are reading this thread, I'm sure you meant 1100 degree silver, right?  |
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Posted: 1/15/2009 5:26:42 AM
I wonder if the high temp it takes to melt the solder ruins the heat treatment of the barrel or would cause any of the chrome on a lined barrel to flake?
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INTrooper4255
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Posted: 1/15/2009 8:04:38 AM
Originally Posted By ar_mcadams:
I wonder if the high temp it takes to melt the solder ruins the heat treatment of the barrel or would cause any of the chrome on a lined barrel to flake? The barrel that I soldered the brake onto was chrome molly steel with a chrome lined bore. I used Heat Stop on it and it didn't transfer much heat. The chrome lining is fine and the rifle shoots the same as it did before. As far as the heat treatment, I wouldn't know about that. |
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Posted: 1/15/2009 10:06:44 AM
Rehashed ad nauseum. It doesn't affect the heat treatment in any perceptible manner.
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Posted: 1/15/2009 11:21:36 AM
[Last Edit: 1/15/2009 11:24:28 AM by AKARS]
Originally Posted By Omega_556:
Originally Posted By bushflyr:
I have no idea why people are so anti-solder, it's easy and cheap. Have you ever removed a hider after you soldered it, where you able to reuse it, were you able to get all the solder off the barrel? When hiders are blind pinned and welded they can be removed in a few minutes, and be re-pinned and re-welded without anyone being able to tell. Why is this important, serviceability. I've seen the ears of a FSB get broken off when a guy fell during a match, I've seen a Vortex get bent when a guy fell in one of Pat Rogers courses. What if down the road you decide you want to install a free float quad rail, what if you want to sell your upper but put the plastic handguard back on it, and keep your quad rail? There are other examples but you get the point, it'd be nice to be able to easily remove the hider to repair/modify your upper without any additional expense of a flash hider and possibly a new barrel. This is not always true. While I have seen great pin & weld jobs, they don't always turn out that way. Here's what I ended up after having a couple of bbls shortened. If I would have known they would have turned out like this I might have considered the silver solder route! 
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Posted: 1/15/2009 11:21:53 AM
[Last Edit: 1/15/2009 11:23:02 AM by AKARS]
DP
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Posted: 1/15/2009 12:32:39 PM
Originally Posted By INTrooper4255:
Does anyone know of anyone that silver solders, since I would have no idea how to do it? I do now, you. Good job |
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INTrooper4255
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Posted: 1/15/2009 2:02:27 PM
Originally Posted By Romokid:
Originally Posted By INTrooper4255:
Does anyone know of anyone that silver solders, since I would have no idea how to do it? I do now, you. Good job  Thanks, I hate trying stuff for the first time, but this seemed fairly straight forward.
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Posted: 1/19/2009 12:18:49 PM
so if you use the solder past from Brownells and the solder is on the threads, how do know when it melts and is time to take the heat off. I mean you wont be able to see it and if you leave some showing then it looks bad.
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INTrooper4255
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Posted: 1/19/2009 4:59:56 PM
Heat it until it is dark red, cool down and try to turn it with a wrench. Just make sure that you don't quench it once it's heated, let it cool on it's own.
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Posted: 3/4/2009 1:35:56 AM
I'm gonna try the solder method
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Posted: 3/4/2009 9:20:40 AM
[Last Edit: 3/4/2009 9:22:41 AM by FunYun1983]
Originally Posted By Easy_E:
There is another way to pin it on without a welder. A local gunsmith showed me this . Drill a hole through the flash hider and in to the barrel slightly. Pull the hider back off and tap the hole with threads. Reinstall the flash hider with the threaded hole lined up with the hole in the barrel. Take a extra long set screw with loctite and thread it into the hole. It should bottom out in the hole and leave the head above the surface. Now grind off the head and shape to the hider. If your careful you only need to touch up the round shiny spot. If you can use one of the broken screw/bolt extractors on it, then I don't think the ATF would approve. Basically, if you can remove the piece without grinding or melting, it isn’t 'permanent' as far as the ATF sees it. ETA: INTrooper4255, that looks great, I'm certainly gonna try solder before pin and weld now. |
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CONKLE73
I’m CONKLE73 and I approve this message.
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Posted: 3/4/2009 9:44:12 AM
Originally Posted By Easy_E:
Originally Posted By bushflyr:
Originally Posted By Easy_E:
There is another way to pin it on without a welder. A local gunsmith showed me this . Drill a hole through the flash hider and in to the barrel slightly. Pull the hider back off and tap the hole with threads. Reinstall the flash hider with the threaded hole lined up with the hole in the barrel. Take a extra long set screw with loctite and thread it into the hole. It should bottom out in the hole and leave the head above the surface. Now grind off the head and shape to the hider. If your careful you only need to touch up the round shiny spot. That method is entirely serviceable, but, IIRC, not legal as the law is currently written. I'm not sure how the batmen would go about proving it, but I'm sure they could come up with something. You could, maybe, use that method but silver solder the pin in place by applying the heat to the exposed end of the set screw prior to grinding it off. But then you're messing about in lawyer land with the fine points of a law that the batmen don't even know what it really means. Most likely you'll never have to worry about it, but... I don't know the exact wording of the law but I read permanently installed. If this is not permanent I don't know what is. The only way to uninstall is to drill the set screw because you ground off the hex part. actually this is more secure than the pin because you have to drill the whole thing not just the welded top. The ATF has provided what they consider to be the “approved” methods. That is the end of the story… any other method should be considered “non-approved”. If you want to debate it, you could very well get the chance to do so as a defendant in a criminal proceeding. |
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Posted: 4/15/2009 1:10:51 AM
[Last Edit: 4/15/2009 1:11:54 AM by Wildkow]
Anyone have an example of a welded FH?
Wildkow p.s. that toe is just nasty! |
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Posted: 4/16/2009 8:57:12 PM
[Last Edit: 4/16/2009 9:04:37 PM by Displaced_Texan1]
Originally Posted By Jazer:
Originally Posted By WayneG:
Originally Posted By Jazer:
Originally Posted By Mad-Machinist:
Basically you heat the flash hider with the aceteleyne torch with a very small tip till the solder melts and draws into the joint. Clean the threads of both parts very well and use a small amount of paste flux on them prior to heating. The solder gets placed on the threads inside the FH right? Is that also where the paste flux is placed? Easiest way is to use the Fusion paste sold by Brownells. Flux is already mixed in. My method: Coat threads with fusion paste, screw on FH. Coat barrel, starting about 1/8" below the FH with Heat Stop Paste (Brownells). This will prevent discoloration and damage to the barrel. Coat the FH and the 1/8" section of barrel without Heat Stop with chalk, any chalk will do. In case any solder flows onto the exposed metal this will prevent it from adhering to the surface, making clean up easy. USE OXY MAPP vice OXY. This will get you up to the right temperature faster so the solder flows quicker. Heat the area on the FH above the threads until you see the solder flow along the joint between the FH and the barrel. Done. This: http://www.brownells.com/aspx/ns/store/productdetail.aspx?p=1121 and this: http://www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/store/productdetail.aspx?p=6647&st=&s=16017 ? Seems simple enuf  And yes some of you are right, I don't have access to a welder right now, nor do I want to spend the money on a good welder and drill press. My money right now is better spent on firearms and ammo!Or buy the same stuff from here for less than half the price: http://www.contenti.com/products/soldering/heat-shields.html
-Texan |
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